Nice to be an R8/R9 user ?

Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by anthony_brookes|5, Jun 10, 2006.

  1. Now that digital is imposing itself on us it must be a nice time for owners
    with R8s and R9s and the DMR. They must be snapping up all the desirable R
    lenses at knock down prices. From what I have seen of DMR pictures this looks
    like the digital outfit to have if you are not worried by bulk or weight. Is
    this happening - you DMR owners ?
  2. From what I have seen of DMR pictures this looks like the digital outfit to have if you are not worried by bulk or weight.
    . . . or cost, or availability of rentals, or lack of autofocus.
  3. Mike - Quality of images so far. Autofocus doesn't attract me at all and I should be surprised if many serious photographers use it except I suppose for action pictures.
  4. I should be surprised if many serious photographers use it except I suppose for action pictures.
    By "action pictures," do you mean only fast-moving sports (like baseball or football)? Or would situations like street photography, wedding photography, portrait photography, and photojournalism also qualify?
    In the real world (outside the Leica forum), the bulk, weight, cost, rental availability, and autofocus capabilities of a system are all important factors in determining "the digital system to have."
  5. AF is a must for some photography IMO. For other parts it isn't necessary, or even desirable.
    Depends on your needs and desires.

    I find that Canon AF lenses are sloppy for manual focus because resistance is optimized for
    swift movement of the elements ... where true manual focus lenses like Leica R are well
    dampened and more precise.
  6. Just to clarify (before someone starts in about "Leica bashing"), I don't dispute that the R digital back can produce excellent results. For some people, it might be the perfect combination of features and output to suit their needs. Some people might need the higher quality of a medium format back; some might need higher frame rates and fast autofocus; some (most!) might need a lower cost.
  7. Leica was never a lower-cost product, it's always been for those who want high-quality results. I'm delighted with the detail, color quality and dynamic range of the DMR's output.
    Cooper's Hawk - Sacramento County California
    Leica R8/DMR, Leica 280mm f/4 APO-Telyt-R
    Some of the best Leica-R lenses have seen huge price increases in the last year or so on the second-hand market. Good luck finding a 280 f/4 for under US$3,000.
  8. "Now that digital is imposing itself on us"

    If you consider digital a forced imposition, I suggest you refrain from spending thousands on an R8/R9+DMR and a stash of Leica lenses. Shoot film until you can no longer locate any or a lab to process it, or buy a Rebel XT with the kit zoom and dip your toes into digital. If, as I predict, you quickly get over your attitude and find yourself not wanting to shoot film again, then is the time to revisit the possibility of the DMR, or another high-end digital.
  9. I loved many examples from DMR posted here in the past. That being said I don't understand some of the opinions on AF usage. I shoot a lot of hockey and I also shoot street. Lots of times it is easier to shoot hockey with my camera on a tripod than getting a shot on the street where you only have a split second to raise, focus and shoot on fast moving people.
  10. I will second Dougs comments and leave the rest of the BS to someone else on the need for AF.
  11. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    "I'm delighted with the detail, color quality and dynamic range of the DMR's output."

    Doug, curious, what other cameras have you shot raw with?
  12. "I should be surprised if many serious photographers use (AF) except I suppose for action pictures."

    That's the funniest thing i've read in quite a while. Can't see the forest for the Leica?

    Anthony -
    I recently sold my R8 kit. I liked it when i had it, but i don't miss it now. I was never seriously interested in the DMR. Sure, various people have posted lovely images from it. But, I've also seen garbage from it. Obviously, operator skill is critical, with any camera - digital no exception. The people who extract such fine imagery from a DMR could also do it with a Canon or Nikon. Personally, i was first put off by the price of the DMR. Secondly, i would want an AF in an SLR system. Thirdly, the DMR came out amid rumors and conjecture surrounding Leica's demise. And, lastly, i had sworn a few years ago, following a brief stint with a Canon D60, that i would be interested only in a full-frame solution. When the 5D came out, i went back to EOS for SLR digital and film. And, i'm in love with the 85/1.2L.....
  13. "The people who extract such fine imagery from a DMR could also do it with a Canon or Nikon."

    That's not the story many of them are telling.
  14. "I will second Dougs comments and leave the rest of the BS to someone else on the need for AF."

    Your images are impressive, but so are Marc Williams's. If he feels that certain shots benefit from AF, why do you insist his opinion is BS?
  15. I'm curious, have any genuinely serious league photographers dumped their Canons for
    the DMR? Marc has posted some nice clean looking images from the DMR, but he's done
    the same with both Canon digital and with film. Doug's posted images from the DMR that
    are nowhere near as pleasing technically (they look kind of flat, kind of digital...) as those
    he's produced with film - though I'm guessing that's because he's fairly new to the
    medium rather than any inherent shortcomings of the DMR. Guy, the biggest and loudest
    proponent of the DMR, has posted images that've looked weak technically - though with
    assertions that they look great in reality but somehow fall apart on photonet. Working
    photographers generally ignored Leica Rs in the film era (despite the quality of the lenses)
    and that isn't likely to change in the digital era. The camera people want is the digi M not
    the R.
  16. "I'm curious, have any genuinely serious league photographers dumped their Canons for the DMR??
    Guy Mancuso did. Say what you will about his photos but they pay his bills.
    "Doug's posted images from the DMR that are nowhere near as pleasing technically (they look kind of flat, kind of digital...) as those he's produced with film - though I'm guessing that's because he's fairly new to the medium rather than any inherent shortcomings of the DMR."
    Possibly because my DMR photos are where film can't go with equivalent quality - high ISO in particular. All the DMR photos I've posted were made at ISO 400 or higher. And also possibly because I'm new to RAW conversion.
  17. "Say what you will about his photos but they pay his bills."

    Sure they do, but it doesn't automatically follow that he's operating at a particularly high
    level. There are amateurs here, including yourself, who (at least to my eyes) are way more
    credible when it comes to assessing the qualities or otherwise of a camera. I ask the
    question because if the DMR was as astoundingly capable as Guy and a few others claim
    then there's no very obvious reason why photographers aren't moving to the DMR en
    masse. They've made radical shifts before in their choice of equipment, most notably from
    Nikon to Canon EOS.

    "I'm new to RAW conversion"

    I did acknowledge that.
  18. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Pro's made the Titanic. An amateur built The Arc.
  19. I've seen outstanding photos posted here from almost all camera brands.

    What is odd, are people who say, "Well, you can't make quality judgement from a photo
    posted online." Yet they're the same ones who will post photos online in order to make a
    point about quality. You can't have it both ways.
  20. Boris you have no idea what the hell your even talking about. . Posting on this site , I cannot get good images for some reason. And also I will NOT post images from clients. That would be stupid because people steal your work. When you evry doubtful get to a pro level than maybe you may understand a few things like copyright, infringement and stuff we have to deal with. At least if images are stolen from my site i have legal recourse here i got nothing. learn something about the business before you put your size 11 in your mouth
  21. Guy, what's your first language? Your postings read like Babelfish translations from a
    language (Finnish? Hungarian?) to English. I'm sure that in your native tongue you don't
    come across as anywhere near so foolish, presumptuous, boastful, and bombastic. As a
    courtesy I've looked at your website, and, I'll admit, I've misjudged you. I thought you were
    humorless, but I find a wonderfully witty, post-modern, spoof of early 80s pr
    C'est magnifique!
  22. >Posting on this site , I cannot get good images for some reason.<

    I agree. And because of this incapability, were others have no problem, many perhaps have concluded you're the last person to hear the merits of the DMR from.
  23. Once again complete idiots here. As usually just like dpreview with people that have no clue what is good , bad or indifferent. Totally moroons, Boris stick it and same with the last poster. I just banned myself.
  24. ROTFL

    Thanks for the entertainment. About halfway through this I totally lost what the argument was all about.
  25. Guy, I have some questions. Are you this angry in real life? Or just online? What's a
    "moroon"? You don't seem to grasp that the whole
    point of a discussion forum is that people offer differing opinions. Just repeating your
    pro pro pro mantra doesn't entitle you to some kind of divine and unchallengeable
    authority. If you want that I suggest you found some kind of DMR cult - you can be the
    Big Barnack.
  26. "Guy Mancuso did. Say what you will about his photos but they pay his bills."

    In fact I said I thought they were impressive. My question was why he felt like he had to call Marc Williams's (an undeniably good photographer) opinion BS that AF is beneficial for some instances. If two photographers produce equally pleasing photographs, does the one not using AF earn additional ranking points or something? I suppose a demonstrably a good photogapher might be forgiven for thumping his chest and braying that he doesn't need no stinkin' AF, but to put down other demonstrably good photographers for using AF just reflects back badly on the one who says it. I think. And Guy's last post telling two posters to "stick it" kind of clarifies for me his general attitude.
  27. Boris last comment , no one has seen one photo from you, If you think you are all that . Than proof it, Otherwise your just talk. Also if you keep up with the slander , you will find a lawsuit sitting on your door next week. Boris there is a full article on the DMR and if you can't get any info from that than you are a stupid person. BTW i never have been happier than to call you on your superiorty to photography, your a joke to this community and always have been. I wish I could say your work sucks but than again maybe you don't even take pictures , never seen one to prove otherwise. Just waiting for a moderator to ban you so keep up the great talk , it is entertaining to say the least. Personally I hate this site was just trying to help the poster and could care less if they did ban me, see the point is I don't care what any of you think unless you are paying my invoices
  28. Who the hell put Marc down at all, sorry if that read that way but it was not intended at all. AF is a luxury and I said that many times , it misses more than it hits and it simply cannot read your mind. I find it more of a hinderance than a asset. i have shot many high speed action with manual and to be honest with much better results . AF is good in one area and that is focus tracking with subjects coming at you, on manual that is the toughest task. But any side to side is very easy. Although I have shot jtes on landings with manually for many years at 140mph with Nikkor 600 lenses with great success. What i am saying is AF is way overrated and it kills me when people say you cannot do without it. Talk to the guys that shot sports for years with manual focus, they did just fine. Canon and Nikon are hard to shoot manual because they are designed for AF and need better MF screens
  29. As far as Boris is concerned , he has been up my crawl space since my first post many moons ago. Honestly the guy has some real issues, i just like to call him on anything because there is no talent there but needless talk.
  30. "If you think you are all that . Than proof it"

    You just don't get it do you? Even if I've never picked up a camera in my life it does
    nothing to strengthen your position - I'm not doing the boasting, you are. Aren't you
    curious as to why the pro pro pro
    mantra is not enhancing your standing here. Surely, everybody should be
    falling at your feet given your "pro" status. Do you really imagine that people
    are somehow jealous of you? It's the totally unwarranted arrogance and aggression of your
    postings that
    alienates people. It's kind of ironic, considering all the abuse you've needlessly sprayed
    around, that you're now the one threatening a lawsuit?
  31. So much for the last comment from The Big Barnack......
  32. "AF is good in one area and that is focus tracking with subjects coming at you"

    That's about the only time I use it too, but glad it's there then.

    "What i am saying is AF is way overrated and it kills me when people say you cannot do without it."

    I've never heard any experienced pro say they cannot, just that they wouldn't want to do without it.

    "Talk to the guys that shot sports for years with manual focus, they did just fine."

    When you say "shot" do you mean those that are no longer shooting? Talk to the ones working now and 99.99999% of them are using AF cameras, and using the AF most of the time, except when they feel it's working against them. And the sports shots in the magazines look pretty durn good to me.
  33. " misses more than it hits and it simply cannot read your mind"

    It's not meant to read your mind, you're meant to tell it where to focus. If you separate
    autofocus from the shutter release then you get a really efficient hybrid of auto and
    manual focus.
  34. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah DMR blah blah blah DMR blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Leica blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah DMR blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah DMR blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah DMR blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah DMR blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Leica blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah DMR blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
  35. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    wow. i think i'm going to go back and have another go at finding that vacum leak in the gti.
  36. John not saying it is not a very helpful feature , what I am saying is people will not even consider a manual focusing camera because they think they can't do without and that is baloney,manual focus has been around forever since when did it fall out of grace. Is AF the total dominance now, i think it is sad that people rely on it so much and don't want to be more involved with focusing in on something. Hard to describe but even when I shot Canon I manual focused on paying jobs , just that simple. Would not trust it . But what i have found going back to all manual my concentration has come back much better , with AF you seem to get lazy and this is very hard to desribe in words but anyway AF has it's place no doubt but man manual focus did not die because AF came around. When it can actually think on what you want to focus than i will be all over it, but focus tracking is it's strong point.
  37. Boris go back to the beginning and read the posts you started everything , i just responded and frankly i can't stand you personnally so I don't care, it is that simple. My Pro status is meaningless here and anywhere on the net, could care less except to potential paying and existing clients, what you think of me just says it all, your a idiot with a agenda. Go away and leave me be
  38. Anyway, time for a photo break. Hope you all enjoy my lighthouse photo, still working on it....
  39. Anthony back to your question about bulk and weight. It is a big camera and a little heavy but compared to a 1dsMKII for size and weight reference a touch smaller but the weight is less and that is becuase the DMR battery is about a 1/3 the weight and size and also the capacity. I get around 250 to 350 DMR shots with one battery and i believe about 1200 with the 1dsMKII so you have a give and take there. I personnaly like the lighter weight of the camera because that is in my hands and extra batteries in a roller bag. Now the feel of the camera , the DMR fits the hand better no question for me. So is it worth the weight and bulk for me yes it is because that is all I really have every had anyway was Pro level camera's like the F3 and Hassy stuff so it is normal but for the weekend shooter it certainly can be a hassle and reason a lot of folks would buy the Canon non pro line and Nikon 's none pro line like the D200 which I just got for Tilt and Shift work and it is a nice camera and built well. But If i quit today I would go buy the DM and 4 lenses and be a happy camper. LOL
  40. I find the blue smear on the right of the lighthouse rather annoying.

    Back to the drawing board.
  41. Hmm, i suppose i could get away with it as a sky or sea reflection...
  42. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Allan, it's lovely, leave it. i love the crooked horizon as well!

    [​IMG] taken with a camera, also
  43. "i think it is sad that people rely on it so much and don't want to be more involved with focusing in on something."What difference does it make as long as the image turns out the way the photographer wanted and the viewer likes? Are you saying that professional photographers who use AF just point it willy-nilly and accept the image whatever the AF focused on? If that's true then AF works a lot better than you give it credit. If it's not true then those photogs must have it under their control more than you give them credit. Because there's a ton of outstanding photography being done with AF. "Hard to describe but even when I shot Canon I manual focused on paying jobs , just that simple. Would not trust it . But what i have found going back to all manual my concentration has come back much better , with AF you seem to get lazy" (prepositions highlighted for emphasis) Therein lies the problem. No one would argue with you if you didn't insist on extrapolating your personal opinions to everyone else, particularly when as I said, there is a ton of outstanding photography being done with AF. And I'm not speaking of myself. I so rarely shoot action-type shots that I welcome AF because I do lack practice manually-focusing action shots.
  44. Allan, it's lovely, leave it. i love the crooked horizon as well!

    Thanks, Eric, although to be honest i prefer yours,more interesting.

    Actually, the blue smear probably is a reflection. Feel happy now.
  45. It started as this RAW image. The wonders of digital and PS.
  46. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    cheers Allan, mine was taken with velvia 50. the slide looks like that. 15 min or so after sunset with 45 sec exposure, cokin blue/yellow polrzr & 6 nd grad. i should scan a few more of these before they deteriorate.
  47. John if every word i speak gets taken to some weird extreme than I don't know what to say to you. Obviously you want to pull every word and make something of it, I speak of experience in the business that relates to others that also shoot and point out area's that i have noticed that are of a concern to everyone to look and watch out for , nothing else and quit the superior crap . It is frankly as stupid as Boris making comments , i do not disagree with AF but it is not the end all in a process to achieve perfect focus and that is my point to folks that rely heavily on it that it does miss and sometimes a great deal and for someone that is not stopped down to F8 that will mask those errors they may never notice it. But working in wide open area's it will miss a lot. You seem to think I have never shot the Canon or Nikon AF systems and make a opinion on the fact that maybe they just are not as good as some think. is there something wrong with that statemnet that offends you , i certainly hope not. It is my opinion and my experience with these systems, take it or leave it at the door step. If you buy Canon , Nikon or something that say's camera on it than that is your business and I really don't care. All I acan say is what I know and what I have tested to a great deal on these systems. i have been doing this for 31 years and if you don't trust my opinion than don't listen. Move on but if I think you lose some concentration than maybe that is a clue to look at that within your own style and see if that is true or not. i help hundreds of people a week on this stuff so it is not about me and what i do but it is about what i know and what you can gain from that, if nothing than it is nothing. if you can learn something from what I say than you get ahead in the game of learning just like from anyone else. Why do i get the slam every freaking time I come in here and try to help someone and get a brusing from Mr. Boris for him making a comment about me , now I am the bad guy, screw that if you bash me i will respond in a big way. if you are freindly I will give the shirt off my back to help. Pick what road you want to take because i have helped many that do appreciate the advice and help but don't get onthe hobbyist podium and try and strike down guys that have been around and have valid opinions on area's that they know very well. If it sounds like some super human stuff than get over it , that is not my style at all but don't cross me or i will respond in a aggressive and nasty way. i would rather a friendly conversation without the Boris elements that abound this site much to often. I can joke with the best of them but comments made in bad taste i will respond and it will not be pretty.
  48. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

  49. Guy, when in junior high school, did other kids ever stick a note on your back that said "Kick
    Me Hard" ?
  50. "don't cross me or i will respond in a aggressive and nasty way."

    Yeah, I think we all get that. Dale Carnegie you ain't :*)
  51. Sorry guys not biting, have much better things to do than play games on the internet with a bunch of kids. I would rather go make money
  52. Guy, you've done nothing but bite - albeit toothlessly and with a total absence of menace.
    Like a week old poodle minus the charm. Your contribution seems to have
    degenerated into a full on primal scream of rage, pointless self-aggrandisement, and
    anxiety. And for what? Defending the honor of a fairly ordinary camera....You can protest
    all you like that you don't care about my comments, but your constant
    references to me (even in my absence) suggest otherwise. I don't think I've ever
    encountered before such oozing insecurity. Ironically, the harder you try to insult me the
    more I end up actually feeling sorry for you. Given that we live in a google age I've no idea
    why a "pro" like yourself would choose to abusively rant on a forum like this. Would you
    really be relaxed about a prospective client doing a search on you and being brought to a
    thread like this (interestingly, despite your self-proclaimed status a google search on your
    kicks up little more than links to photo forums)?
  53. Boris i am defending myself and not any camera , you are the one critizing me and my work go back and read your comments . I will not be critized by some creature that has no place to do so, like I said who are you to attack me, Have you put many years into being a photographer and a working one at that, where is the credibilty that you may think you have . No that is obvious , you are just some lurking idiot that wants to play games , first you need to banned from this site and second maybe you really need some serious help.As I said before Boris you are way out of line and it is about time someone did something about it, you based your comments on nothing to start with and now you simply want to make yourself look good. Screw you if you think being a pro i don't have that right to say that than i am also a human and will not be treated any less than with respect. So move on there is nothing here for you to say anymore. You made yourself known as no one that can proof to me you even know anything about photography and your opinion is meaningless. I have much better things to do with my time and searching for me on the internet will proof nothing. I don't post my invoices there. Boris if you want to read of the DMR go read the 1200 pages on Fred Miranda site, maybe if you took your head out of the sand you may learn something about it than critize people that volunteer there time to help others
  54. ... where is the credibilty that you may think you have.
    Just for the record, and with respect to photography, for me, Boris has more credibility than almost anyone here. That's based on years of insightful and accurate comments across a wide breadth of topics on photography. He's the only one (or two) who doesn't post pics but who I still pay attention to.
    Sorry Guy, you need to find a different angle - that dog won't hunt.
  55. Yea a lot of talk about nothing, I don't see one crediable source from him or images but since i don't post images i am not crediable either , excuse me. What makes him different than me there is no web site of his work or source of info from anything that he has tested or frankly anything. Sorry that dog won't hunt with me either my friend. i have all this and is posted on the FM site just don't post here do not like 500 pixels wide images , you can't see anything. SDorry i will take critism from someone I respect , he shot his mouth of first so the cake is in his face. i don't care what he thinks but my reputation is important , I teach workshops and have a great business as a commercial shooter , so anyone taking stupid pot shots at me better have some serious crediabilty it is that simple. Sorry my friend but you bark is but a whine. Now if we can get on to something that actually matters than i am all for it otherwise this is total BS crap that is meaningless.
  56. It is abundantly obvious that Boris, and his various siblings, knows a great deal about
    photography. There is no need, for him to post any photos to somehow qualify his opinions.

    To use an old, and slightly quaint, English expression, he adds to the gaiety of the nation and
    these forums would a duller place without his contributions.

    However, for reasons of moral probity, it is best if we gloss over his alarming penchant for
    Halston dresses and Sister Sledge records.
  57. Thanks Brad, I appreciate your comments.

    Guy rants impotently, abusively (isn't that against the forum rules?), and ever more
    desperately on:

    "go back and read your comments"

    OK, I actually think it would be helpful to go back and quote the comment which Guy
    found so offensive. Here it is: "have any genuinely serious league photographers dumped
    their Canons for the DMR?" That's right, Guy's apoplectic because I don't feel he falls into
    this category. Here's your chance Guy, make the case for you being a major league
    photographer. All I've seen is your website which shows deeply ordinary pr images. There's
    nothing wrong with that, but I'm baffled by you apparently imagining yourself a significant

    "I will not be critized by some creature
    that has no place to do so"

    Sorry big guy, but it doesn't work like that. The very nature of a discussion forum is that
    people will put forward views
    that sometimes contradict with your own. Pretty much everybody else deals with that, but
    if you can't then it would be better for your blood pressure and mental health to just stay

    "where is the credibilty that you may think you have"

    I'm happy with Brad's answer to this question.

    "first you need to banned from this site"

    On what basis? Not taking you remotely seriously is not to the best of my knowledge a
    banning offense. However, unless I'm very much mistaken, your repeated recourse to
    abuse is.

    "second maybe you really need some serious help"

    Look in the mirror Guy.

    "Boris you are way out of line and it is about time someone did something about it"

    If I'm way out of line why are you finding it so difficult to do something about it? The
    reason you've no chance of putting me in my place is that I don't resort to BS and

    "you simply want to make yourself look good"

    No, I simply want to add to a potentially interesting debate. If I'm looking good it's
    primarily because standing next to you it's difficult to look otherwise.

    "Screw you if you think being a pro i don't have that right to say"

    You've the same right as everybody else. No more, no less. It's up to you whether you use
    that right to look smart or foolish.

    "i am also a human"

    Don't tempt me....

    "and will not be treated any less than with respect"

    This may be a novel concept, but you have ever considered the concept of earning respect
    (again, see Brad's comments)? Sadly, it's beyond some people to earn this, but it's still
    worth trying; demanding respect invariably fails.

    "So move on there is nothing here for you to say anymore"

    Sorry Guy, you're just a sad voice in the wilderness here. It's just not your call to make.

    "your opinion is meaningless"

    Again, I'll defer to Brad.

    "What makes him different than me...."

    You don't have the time or the space to list all of the things that make me different to you,
    but a good start would be wit and self-awareness.

    " not like 500 pixels wide images , you can't see anything"

    You can't see ultimately how good an image is at this size, but you can certainly see some
    major problems at this size. I fail to see how downsizing a mighty DMR file can induce, for
    example, blown highlights.

    "SDorry i will take critism from someone I respect , he shot his mouth of first so the cake
    is in his face"

    You seem to be rambling even more than normal now. Who is S Dorry? And why is the cake
    in his face?

    "i don't care what he thinks"

    You might not care what S Dorry thinks, but the evidence is depressingly and
    growingly abundant that you care what I think.

    "my reputation is important , I teach workshops and have a great business as a
    commercial shooter"

    I think we all get the message loud and clear that you take yourself and your reputation
    seriously, although the presence of more than a hint of desperation suggests a serious
    underlying insecurity. If you have a "great business" then I'm pleased for you, just don't try
    to use it as a stick to beat others.

    "Now if we can get on to something that actually matters than i am all for it otherwise this
    is total BS crap that is meaningless."

    On that, my angry friend, I'm more than happy to agree.

  58. Andrew, I hope you don't mind me being bold, but you've never looked more beautiful
    than you do today.

    I was shocked to read in another thread that you work for Tatler. Do you have a title?
    Should I address you as Lord Lamb? Is Millie Simpson, as a former colleague of hers told
    me, actually a real live princess?????
  59. Boris, you may address me as the Duchess of Camden. If I look beautiful (and all my servants
    think I look terrific) it's because I bathe regularly in Creme de la Mer.

    Millie has certainly been a princess to me and given me some fun jobs to do. Having said
    that, I wished I knew her when she was on Sight & Sound.
  60. Boris what a feeble attempt , your a joke and a troll , have a life that i certainly would not lead. Goodbye
  61. "is Millie Simpson, as a former colleague of hers told me, actually a real live princess?????"

    Hey, wait a minute. How come you know Millie if gUy mAsncuSco sez yuo doont no anytHnhg
    aBuot FooTgraPHY and your A tROll?
  62. Andrew thank you for making fun of my typing abilities. First i am not very good at it and never will be. i think much faster than the fingers will go and 1 a one finger typist is just not the best solution also i have a very fast paced life with 2 kids and a wife and lot's of work all the time , I put in 16 hours a day, be it shooting or working files, billing, marketing and everything that the President down to the custodian does. i simply don't have the time or energy to go back and fix my errors and frankly I could gives a rats a.... that i did, it simply is not important to me but i do take the time and energy when typing my invoices and bids , contracts and other communication with my clients. To me that is all that matters so there if you want to make fun of it , go right ahead. it only means I am busy and trying to support my lifestyle, which I love. Now on this whole other matter , i am sorry it got this ugly and i like to have fun and love photography and the whole business of it, i am almost 50 years old been a working pro since i was 19 and i simple just don't take any s.... from anyone anymore. If that sounds not very friendly than i am sorry but honestly i am a very friendly person and have helped many just not on this site which seriously I wonder why i bother there are a lot of low life's here and for some stupid reason, I feel the need to help people. I should get over that because i do not like this place at all, too much like dpreview and the moderators are obviously on vacation on this thread for sure. i am sure Boris is a knowlegable person to some degree with regards to photography but i work at it every day along with many other pro's that bust there a... to make a living, so you may not like what we shoot but we are shooting to make clients happy and do what THEY want, we have sold our soul a long time ago to make a living. If you guy's want to continue to ride my a... than do it in a e-mail and not here in public guymancuso at cox dot net . This is not the place to go any further with this and I will not be any part of it anymore. it actually is sickening
  63. While you are still about Guy i was wondering how easy is it to swop backs on the DMR.
  64. Guy. Your problem is that you talk too much. You probably have a bitg heart and sometimes you drown in your emotions. Sometimes we call it sticking a foot in your mouth. I've been there many a time.
  65. "so you may not like what we shoot but we are shooting to make clients happy and do
    what THEY want'

    Guy, I didn't say that I don't like your photos. I'm a professional photographer too and I
    understand that's it all about keeping the clients happy. What I didn't like was the
    aggressive tone you took and the fact you started threatening legal action. Talk about
    raising the stakes unnecessarily.

    Two things about Boris. Firstly, he knows a great deal about photography and offers very
    considered opinions. Secondly, he has a sense of humour. It's as simple as that.

    I could tell you a third thing but I'd want lots of cash first.

    As for the gag about your typing, mine isn't any better than yours. I take the time to
    eradicate as many mistakes as I can. It's all about communication.
  66. Actually it is not hard to do and does take a minute or 2 to make the switch. one nice thing leica did was give you a cover for the sensor so it is protected when off. The way it works to remove is motor drive first than get cover plate and put that on the inside of the DMR and it actually release's the pin (pretty cool) than put away in case . The film back goes on than the smal battery clips back in and your off. Honestly never ran a roll through the camera but it really is simple and fast to do.
  67. Thanks Rene and Andrew yes guilty as charged . i am very passionate about my work and this business, honestly this is what i know best and my emotions do run high. Maybe because I care not sure. I don't dare go into wedding forums , i simple would have a heart attack. Gotta run to a gig
  68. Andrew, have you considered using your impeccable Brit breeding in an effort to take
    Manhattan? Look what a humble OBE, a Rolleiflex, and a welded-on Rolleinar did for Pykey.
    One day he's a jobbing hack living in a Hastings beach hut, the next he's stepping into
    Avedon's shoes at The New Yorker. Reality is stranger than fiction can ever be....
  69. "i think much faster than the fingers will go"

    Best laugh of the day. Thanks, Guy. You should try stand up comedy.
  70. Boris, yes I know all about SP's contract-friends of friends et al. I did actually see the New
    Yorker about 5 years ago and got, what seemed to me, a positive repsonse. I was certainly
    in there for long enough and had a very amiable chat with Elisabeth Biondi.

    I've got a soft spot for the New Yorker, always have done. I get it every week. However,
    even though she really did seem to like the pics, the lack of b/w prints in my book was
    deemed to be something of a drawback and I still haven't remedied this.

    Haven't been in contact with them since. Haven't been to NY in 2 years. Can't actually
    spend too much time there as there's a certain brand of marmalade, that I used to have
    every day with muffins at Eton just after my daily flogging, and one can't find it anywhere
    in New Amsterdam.
  71. Yeah, it cuts both ways. I understand Guy doesn't do much work in Europe because of a
    culinary incompatibility - the Brits and the Surrender Monkeys just can't make a decent
    fried peanut butter and banana sandwich. Elvis had the same problem. Still, Paris and
    London's loss is Racoon Ranch, Arizona's gain. My hope is that the addition of squirrel to
    the menu at St John's might persuade him that there is at least a glimmer of sophistication
    and taste on the
    ugly side of the Atlantic - if you hear the clatter of cowboy boots in Clerkenwell, you never
    know, it might be the big man himself. Buy him a drink for me....
  72. If I did hear the clatter of cowboy boots in Clerkenwell I could only assume that Turnmills was
    having a Village People night.

    If your new best friend did come over here who would he work for? Tatler? Dazed &
    Confused? Arena Homme Plus?

    It's funny, I had always assumed the diaspora of dodgy snappers would always be
    westwards. I never dreamt that it could be towards the land of the gastro-pub. Squirrel it is
    then! I'll notify the Eagle, Moro, the Wolsley, Ramsay ect..
  73. Alas, if only Pyke would use the DMR....
  74. Nels, Steve Pyke is one of those photographers whose work I look to when I need some
    inspiration or a simple reminder that a jobbing photgrapher can do good work.

    I don't think he's used the DMR yet. I gather he's been shooting 5x4 recently. Either way, nice
  75. Definitely Dazed, he's a natural born Hoxtonite. And with a one name byline. Mankin?
    Mingin?.....Careful what you say about Turnmills, that was one of my haunts a long, long
    time ago.
  76. "Careful what you say about Turnmills, that was one of my haunts a long, long time ago."

    ...and they still talk about you. Dazzling moves and every week a new outfit.

    You should take your friend there. It might break down some barriers. I'll DJ.
  77. Guy, how old are you?

    It's time to dig yourself out of that deep hole.

    Ah, i've missed these slaging contests on the leica forum. Always the same yet so humorous with their "pro" statements
  78. I'm rather fond of the blouse I have on.
  79. Thanks for the informative reply Guy.

    I�ve been reading about vignetting problems with the Canon 5D over on the EOS forum. It was believed that it was more of a lens issue than the camera. I was wondering if any of the Leica lenses you use have the problem particularly as they have not been corrected for digital use.

    I prefer to ask these questions to experienced practising users. Thanks
  80. Guy. Your problem is that you talk too much. You probably have a bitg heart and sometimes you drown in your emotions. Sometimes we call it sticking a foot in your mouth.​

    Foot, mouth -- head, another orifice. Whatever.
  81. Micheal the 15mm 2.8 and 19mm 2.8 have a few issues in that regard. The 19mm you need to actually file down the corners of the hood, also in the very deep corners it does go a touch soft and same with the 21-35 at 21mm.

    BTW I have been around the world several times shooting annual reports and advertising material.Any other stupid comments where I see no experience in these area's from the trools. For the ill informed I grew up on the East coast. You really need to know about someone before you act in this manner, you have no clue what I have done or what experience i do have in this industry but go right ahead and act like 5 year olds. It is the same 7 people that flood this forum with trash , I see it on every thread and the moderator really needs to step up to the plate, there is more in life to the precious M camera that riddles this forum with fanatics or just trolls that have there hand in there pants to get excited on what crap they can give out. Need to go, have to get ready to shoot some cowboys and indians. BTW Phoenix is the 5th largest city in America.

    Micheal more than happy to answer any questions or help just e-mail me. I have more info on the 5D that maybe useful for you and your needs.
  82. anthony, I being true to form am late to this party,
    so let me first start off by saying.."Hi, I'm Paul, and I'm a Professional." god, I feel better
    just typing that p a weight off my chest.
    No, I'm not a super star like mr. pyke, but I like what I do and
    have had a few clients who like what I do. I think that I have earned some respect of my
    peers in the industry, which is satisfying, the others, the arm chair shooters, the photo
    historians with stacks of out of print books, gallery owners/curators, the camera clubbers,
    pnetters, and vast wasteland of picture takers, I don't really care.. not that they don't
    matter, but they aren't in my consciousness..I throw out an opinion or photo here with not
    much concern as how it is taken or not, but I would not expect to be attacked or even
    judged here, I don't think anyone here has those credentials. This is a place to exchange
    ideas and info, you get personal and someone will want to take it outside, and I'm all for
    that, please label me cowboy american pro who buys r lenses for his dmr.
  83. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    I wonder if Gary uses manual or AF?
  84. " For the ill informed I grew up on the East coast"

    For the equally ill informed I grew up in a cave and was raised by wolves. I may not be
    smart but small mammals instinctively quiver in my presence. Judging by you, some
    slightly larger creatures now feel the force.

    Andrew, my moves were never less than dazzling. There was a time when London seemed
    the most civilized place on the planet, the proximity of Turnmills and Metro was almost
    enough to make you believe in the concept of divine (albeit a divinity hooked on C41, PCP,
    and disturbingly snug pink tops) intervention. Regardless of how it must seem now, me
    and Guy were once really close. We were pioneers of the early rave scene, but as things
    moved on we grew apart. The real rift was over the introduction of whistles to the
    dancefloor - I was for them, he was against - his last words in person to me were "You're
    nothing but a cheap anarkistic kandy kid, with your hotpants, your bangles, and
    your f#^*ing whistles". And he was right. Sadly, time takes it's toll on us all, and I find
    today a disko dad rather than a kandy kid. I'm actually getting on a flight to London
    tonight, so if in the next 10 days you see a beautiful creature standing wistfully in the
    of Clerkenwell Road, twitching some moves in response to the beeps of the traffic lights, it
    could well be me. Acieeed, acieeed, acieeed, acieeed, acieeed.......
  85. F^#k me, Z's out on parole again!
  86. Thank you Peter. Waddya think my chances are of winning over the Phoenix Phireball?
    Personally, I think the big mans starting to warm to me. I reckon he's beginning to find me
    strangely attractive - he wouldn't be the first. Before you know it he'll develop a sense of
    humor, and I'll be waxing lyrical over the dynamic range of the mighty DMR. Stranger
    things have happened...
  87. Boris, you greatly overrate your attractiveness. Your siamese-twin-sister Doris, on the other hand--hubba hubba!
  88. You're being harsh Mike. Sure I'm a bit ruff around the edges now, but in my kandy
    kid disko days no man, woman, or animal could resist me. Doris, on the other hand is as
    depressingly beautiful as ever - she's always being mistaken for Maggie Cheung in Irma
    Vep mode. Interestingly, a google image search reveals Guy to be a big, gorgeous,
    (overly?) generous, slab of manmeat - sort of Vegas era Elvis with just a hint of The
    Sopranos. Nice.
  89. boris, put your chaps back on, shave your titties, take guy's head out of your saggy, disco-daddy arse and post some pics. you've been in your cave too long - time to post some of those trademark b.c.han street shots : D
  90. ...I think the big mans starting to warm to me.
    Word's out he's now hot for you. But at this point is doing the hard to get thing, not wanting to look too anxious and feeling the need to make you sweat a little.
  91. B/Doris, the idea that the proximity that of Metro to Turnmills could be someone's idea of
    divinity simply proves that, at heart, you're a big, soppy romantic. A bit the like

    Thank you for finally being honest with us, and yourself, about your bust up with the big
    man. Word was, on the street, that he was trying to tell you something important about
    where Canon was going wrong but you were just too loved up wiggling your hips to Plastic
    Dreams. And pink was never your colour, was it?

    Finally, if you are coming over to Airstrip One, check out the new Stoppard at the Royal
    Court. It sounds like a return to form. London's not just about Buck House and Fabric, you
  92. Excuse me folks...

    Just want to say hello to Z long time no see.

    Carry on don't mind me.
  93. Andrew, the eagle has landed and is bedding down in a louche, but grand, eyrie in Mayfair
    (Guy's hoping to join me at the weekend). Bizarrely (and again I could almost believe in
    divine intervention), on one of the bedside tables is the June issue of Tatler, featuring a
    dazzling contributor pic of you in what I presume is some kind of weird Brit national dress.
    Is that a Morris dancers outfit? You look like Rupert Everett's older brother. Only
    considerably more camp. Very nice pics, even if the opener is just a tad on the soft side.....

    I'll confess I'd never actually seen a copy of Tatler before. It's an absolute freak show.
    There's more mandibular prognathism than in an Appalachian village. I'm beginning to
    think you weren't joking about being an old Etonian. And I now know why the photo editor
    who told me Millie was at Tatler was smirking. Astounding. Life, yet again, proves stranger
    than fiction.
  94. In my own somewhat misspent relative youth, I was often plopped down in Mayfair, when the firm's flat on St.James's square was otherwise occupied by more important persons, to fend for myself when I wasn't doing unmentionable things in the City. The WIDE pinstripe suits, the Saudis' Rolls, and the McLaren in its little exclusive one window dealership... that's Britannia in my mind. The sight of midwestern corn-fed American lawmeisters gnawing through mixed grills, chugging old port, and gyrating in glitter clubs before rendering invaluable advice in the morning makes me regret not carrying a camera very much those days.
  95. Boris,

    Welcome! Mayfair? You've really left your gaudy friends, in Hoxton and Clerkenwell, behind
    haven't you?

    As for the Tatler shoot, to which I wore my my dad's black tie, Millie asked me to
    photograph this huge gala at the National Gallery. I initially declined because I don't want
    to do society photography (although I have done it on occasions). Millie was keen for me
    to do it 'cause she said it was going to look spectacular with everyone being dolled up in
    belle epoque outfits. That's when I suggested we take along a paper background and some
    studio lights.

    We photographed the guests as they first entered the gallery. I had 2 or 3 frames on each
    group. The opener is definitely soft and it pisses me off slightly because the next frame
    was sharp....I think.

    Incidentally, everyone from the editor, Geordie Greig, down helped on the shoot by
    moving furniture etc. Nice team spirit and I can think of loads of mags where that wouldn't
    be the case.

    By the way, most of the small shots are simply scanned from the contact sheets which why
    some of them have orange stickers on them. The film stuff was shot with the RZ, the dig
    shot on the 5D which I love.

    For the record I didn't go to Eton. I went to a local school, in Warwickshire, the Judy
    Garland Academy for Car Mechanics and Applied Technologies. Graduation day was so

    So, here you have it. The sordid truth. One more thing, I' ve aged badly since the photo
    was taken, in March. My wife and I have been spending far too much time trying to make
    the perfect gin and tonic, I kid you not.

    If things don't get patched up between you and Guy, email me and I can show you where
    us hip, middle aged kids hang out. I regularly go to this fab place called the Osteopath.
    Talk about weird moves.
  96. Trust me, Mayfair is not my spiritual home in London (my own choice would have
    been The Charlotte Street or 1 Aldwych). The tatler thing actually looks as if it would have
    been oddly entertaining - sort of Brideshead meets the Adams Family. Sadly, my schedule
    has changed and i'm not going to be able to show Guy my old London haunts this
    weekend, I don't even think I'll be able to give him tough love via the interweb for the next
    10 days or so. Hopefully others can step into the breach and give him the support and
    attention he so richly deserves.
  97. Have you checked out Soho House? All the Bright Young Things have been flitting around
    there recently.

    Pity 'bout you and Guy. However, I've got a feeling in my bones that you two crazy
    lovebirds will eventually get it together. When you do, ask him where he got the music for
    his website. Mine is in need of updating and I'm not ashamed to pinch an idea or two.

    If you think the June Tatler shoot was kind of fun, wait 'til you see what they got me to do
    for the July issue (available from all posh newsagents now). Urban documentary at its
    cussed, grittiest, nastiest, meanest.
  98. Andrew,

    Is this latest work on your website?
  99. Nels, the website was put up four years ago and I haven't touched it since. Hopefully, I can
    update it within the month.

    I'm not sure how updating the website will change the way my work is perceived. I'm going
    to cut down, or even totally remove, the fashion section. I rarely shoot fashion these days
    (once in two years?).

    I will also put up a lot more tear sheets from magazines. The biog needs to slightlly re-
    tuned. I still shoot occasionally for US Vogue but I haven't shot anything for British Vogue
    in 18 months.

    Essentially, the old website is still a fair reflection of what I do. It just needs a bit of
  100. Peter A, you make me feel very prim and very poor.
  101. Pete is describing mid 1980s London and specifically a population of people (financial traders) who - were it not for Margaret Thatcher - would still have been East End barrow boys trying to rip off housewives with Korean made 'genuine Wedgewood' dinner services rather than making their millions from stripping newly privatised public assets. Back in the glory days when the drunken yawps of yuppy unto yuppy were heard throughout the land. It does not suprise me that Pete's London memories were tinged with coke, puke, vintage alcohol and the newly rich trying to ape the more disgusting rituals of old money.
  102. The ones that did not burn out have probably all 'downsized' to live in thatched Cotswold cottages and potter around in their organic smallholdings with whatever minor 'deb' they managed to collect along the way.
  103. Trevor, do they stagger around their Cotswold gardens muttering 'hahahahahaha' to no one
    in particular?
  104. You'll be laughing even more after today's rugby match......
  105. Luckily my profession of the last 27 years (in IT) was a lower pressure boom activity of the 1980s where a lot of us upstart council estate kids with our welfare state provided A levels and degrees (thanks to post-war state education and grants) were 'imported' into the middle class by virtue of the fact that the real middle classes were too stupid or were still studying classics and PPE and computers were considered beneath them.

    It only got me (so far) 27 years of house ownership, being able to raise kids in comfort, paying all my bills and a decent pension (big deal soon). It has not made me filthy rich but it got me out of the dirt and into a suit and (for the first twenty years) some bewildered respect from people who still needed a secretary to to operate their 'word processor' and would take one look at a machine room the size of Buckinghamshire full of blue mainframes costing zillions and feint on the spot!

    Then I moved into networks when the old game got sussed as not being as difficult as we made it look. The state sector (which I avoided like the plague to work with big Yank companies) still cannot get a computer system to work without it going 10 years over target and billions over budget so Orwell's 1984 is still in the hands of a bunch of underpaid incompetents backed up by a flock of overpaid 'consultants' which is why those 'cradle to grave' databases are still all but fantasy fanned by paranoids in the BBC, The Guardian and the Civil liberties movement who cannot get their head around the fact that '1984' will emerge from the Corporates and not the state. Efficiency does depend on getting the right staff and treating them good. A mystery to the state sector.

    I worked out at 19 the only way to escape the ravages of 'computerisation' was to DO the computerisation.

    But yes, the REAL money is in Peter's game and Law and Arms. Peter must be just a couple of annums short of 50 by now so kudos for still being a force in a young bucks game.
  106. The Diary of Allen Herbert

    Awoke at 9.45 had a quickie thrash with my Leica M6ttl. 10.02 Applebury my manservant arrives with breakfast( kippers, toast, marmalade, scrambled eggs with a touch of sugar ). He arrived 2 minutes late flicked his ear until it turned a lighter shade of pale and then bright crimson. He made the necessary pain sounds to please me.

    Visited at 11.45 Madam Tory Hacker with my friend Cameron. Both of us enjoyed exposing our buttocks to her energetic vigour with my old Etonian willow cane....I wore my beige frillies and Cameron was in blue...for those who are interested. Most satisfying.

    1.45 Monday Club for lunch, Venison on the bone with the necessary bullet wound, with mash potatoes and Brussel Sprouts�..Boy Scouts in Cockney rhyming slang.

    2.38 note slipped to me informing me of my latest 007 mission with my Leica.

    To be continued��
  107. We hope so.
  108. 007 Herbert your mission

    Take passage aboard HMS Francis and proceed with all possible haste to the penal colony Australia.


    An island which has developed mutated life forms unlike any other living life forms on the planets. For example huge rats with enormous back legs which hop around and store things in huge pouches. Yes, unbelievable but true! Be careful.

    Your mission is to bring back a convict from the penal colony to see what effect the mutation process is having.
  109. The following day...........

    Arrive at Tilbury docks in my Bentley De Ville at 12am midnight. Trouble getting aboard as the famous photographer Rogering Hickson was already mounting the HMS Francis. Rogering was going to take a photograph of the whole of Australia in one snap on his Alpha Mega plate Camera.

    Eventually my manservant Old Jiffras pushed his way forward scarring other folk with his stutter in his left eye.

    Aboard at 3.89 pm��
  110. Memoirs of Voyage in the year of our Lord 2005 3rd of April 2005.

    May the 9th I sent my manservant Applebury to remonstrate with Captain Guy about his attire. Wandering around the ship in your all together is not expectable even if you are wearing cowboy boots and a hat. Captain Guy felt that by displaying his manhood to the ladies they would feel secure in his abilities to Captain the ship. One finds such behaviour totally unacceptable and it will be reported to the Authorities.

    Appleberry was involved in a altercation with the Captain resulting in a bloody nose. As a special treat for him I gave him the left overs from my evening meal. One has to display acts of kindness on occasion.
  111. 19th of April 2006

    Accidentally pushed Appleburry overboard due to his numerous typo errors in my diary. He kept snivelling about some large fishes with fins circling and biting him.

    For goodness sake man, pull yourself together, i told him, fish don�t eat you, you eat fish. Unfortunately on this occasion he was right.....must have been mutated Australian fish.

    Arrive on Island, send Jiffras due to the demise of Applebury ,to inform Governor Marc Wilham of our arrival. Apparently he was too busy opening his presents to be able to greet us for at least several months.

    To follow confrontation with the mutated convicts!?!?

    To be continued.....
  112. Superb Allen! Most enjoyable to read whilst I am programming and registering new DAB radios (Pure Evoke) for every bedroom and kitchen in house and having to use headphones for this (I am surrounded by people watching Dr Who and they grumble if I make a noise)

    "Oh there's a pink one and a cherry one and even a glossy bla-ack one"

    (Sung to tune of 'Little boxes, little boxes, all made out of Ticky Tacky'... but only in my head of course.)

    Carry on. So sorry for interrupting old chap.
  113. I have never had a radio that can have it's software upgraded via USB ! Our trusty kitchen Roberts is looking very sad and it's little wooden end cheeks are all flushed and I feel sort of sorry for it and a little guilty. Anyone want to make a home for it? (R737)
  114. on. So sorry for interrupting old chap

    Knackered with writing it all...maybe another day,another time, another place.
  115. A bit too much like hard work with Applebury carping it.
  116. What about the rugby? Who cares? Who the @@@@ is watching rugby? Lets see what happens when Oz play Brazil today.
  117. Fascinating thread.

    Andrew - I wonder if as a London based snapper you know an old friend of mine who I've lost touch with, Kareena Miller. She used to be over to Bombay quite regularly, but I haven't seen or heard from her for quite a while.

    Guy must have pounded his keyboard to shards of plastic by now. Pity, I was hoping to hear more from him.
  118. Another Bob, there is a Kareena Perronet-Miller who has a really tricksy, irritating, website.
    Do you mean her?
  119. Trevor, before settling down to watch Brazil outclass the Land Down Under, I spent some
    looking at a book, Robert Doisneau's Paris. Have you seen it? It's joyous and one of the best
    photo books I've looked at in a while.

    Probably my favourite book of Doisneau's work.
  120. Yes that is the one I have. (I was a fool and bought it from a local bookshop for 35 quid rather than get it from Amazon.) Superb.
  121. Lee Miller's 'Portraits from a life'. Very nice.
  122. Got the Miller book, as well, very nice but I have a preference for the warmth of Doisneau's
    work. Having said that, we've got a very nice Miller print on the wall that we bought from the
    Photographer's Gallery many years ago. It's a superb photo.
  123. I'd fallen over like a bunch of daffodils if I had my shins scraped by boot studs which was
    what Ronaldo suffered from one of your less charming players in the first half.

    2-0 flatters Brazil who were not at their dazzling best. Harry Kewell missed a sitter to
    equalise when the score was 1-0. Gus huddink is a genius manager and, if the English FA
    had even the smallest scrap of common sense, he should have been made the next
    England coach.

    You're right though, football is a silly game. The world should take up Aussie rules
    instead, hahahaha.
  124. I thought Australia played very well and had a lot of quality scoring chances. I was impressed by Brazil and Australia for their lack of falling down and embelishing penalties. You should have seen the Italy USA game. The players were falling down like dominoe's in the wind.

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