Newbies and Pros ... let's get it together!

<p>I am starting this thread because the subject of assisting or second shooting comes up frequently with-in other threads ... often as a polarizing answer to a specific question.</p>

<p>Less experienced shooters voice frustration about the lack of mentors or Pros to work with, and Pros lament the seeming lack of knowledge or related sense of responsibility of the part of less experienced "newbies".</p>

<p>IMO, what we have here is a lack of communication. Here are my thoughts on the subject for consideration and discussion on the part of both ends of the experience spectrum. </p>

<p><strong>Gaining experience by working with an established professional wedding photographer:</strong></p>

<p>I almost always use an assistant or a second shooter ... except for my lowest end packages. Every single one of my assistants and second shooters added something valuable for the client ... not always right away, but soon enough to be a value added resource. <strong>Every one of my </strong><em><strong>former</strong></em><strong> assistants</strong> is now a successful professional photographer. Some more successful than I am. For example, Marcin Harla was one of my former assistants. I don't feel threatened by that, I feel proud I could help them realize their potential. I believe in the "play it forward" idea. </p>

<p><strong>How do you get to be an assistant or second shooter?</strong> Here are a few tips: The squeaky wheel gets the grease, the early bird gets the worm ... , etc., etc., is a good start, <strong>but not enough!</strong></p>

<p>What you need to do is think of ways you can be of value to a Pro. It isn't about what they can do for you (which is obvious) ... it's about how can you help them !!! Approaching a Pro with "I want to learn wedding photography" is about you, not them. Rethink your approach. </p>

<p>For example, my current second shooter Noel Kelly started as an assistant. <strong><em>She contacted me from this forum!</em></strong> Her enthusiasm and confidence was apparent. I met with her, looked at her work, saw potential, and explained that I would pay her pocket change and she had to carry my heavy bags for up to 8 hours without whining about it ... LOL! The conversation was all about what she could do for me, Noel ALREADY knew what I could do for her. </p>

<p>Now Noel is my second shooter when the package justifies the cost (which is most of the time) ... otherwise she is quite willing to just assist at lower pay. In return, I have handed off a number of paying jobs to her for newborn photography, family shots and senior photography ... and now engagement sessions ... <strong>when I am too expensive for the client's budget.</strong> Rather than lose the gig due to budget and lose any subsequent future business from potential referrals ... <strong>she</strong> does the work. Noel has said to me that if doing an engagement session for free would help me land a gig she would do it. THAT is about <strong><em>what is in it for me!</em></strong></p>

<p><strong>As testimony, here are some direct client excerpts about Noel published in Wedding Wire ratings for Fotografz:</strong><br>

"Marc Williams from Fotografz and his assistant Noel Kelly did an absolutely fabulous job with our wedding photography!"<br>

"Marc had an assistant with him on the day; she was able to focus on capturing the details, which showed through in the photos that we received."<br>

"Thank you Marc and Noel for capturing the best day of my life and not leaving a single moment out!"<br>

And this e-mail I just got from a former client: <br>

"Looking at our wedding photos again, I love your work. In addition, because Noel was your assistant, now we have beautiful pictures of our (new) daughter."</p>

<p>So, next time you approach a Pro, think about value added things like that. A light bulb might go off over the Pro's head : -)</p>

<p><strong>To the other established pros out there </strong>... think about what's going on in this business. A bunch of inexperienced people are grabbing gigs, often without any experience ... which people keep grousing about. We can counter that by taking on people with potential, guide them, and then use them for gigs we can't afford to do ourselves, or are already booked for ... or to expand out sphere of influence.<br>

When someone calls me for a 7 hour $1,500 wedding gig 8 months in advance, I often can't afford to block that date so far in advance for that kind of money. So I can turn it down, or I can hand it off to someone I have trained. </p>

<p>For me, every single newborn gig Noel does, every senior shoot, every family portrait, becomes a potential networking wedding referral for friends and family members.</p>

<p>Additional thoughts or ideas?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>This is a good topic and all of Marc's information above is sound advice. I'll preface my comments with this. I enjoy mentoring and sharing my experience, which is also why I participate in this forum as much as I do. Over the past 4 years or so I've taken 8 aspiring young shooters out with me on weddings to give them an opportunity to shoot, learn, and possibly give me some extra images and extra depth of coverage through their second shooting. Four of the eight I met through this forum and at least one still participates here on a frequent basis. Two of them shot with me on more than one occasion and there were cross-referrals between the three of us over the last few years. Side note: none of my assitants have ever "shlepped" any of my gear, I'm completely comfortable shooting solo and can handle my gear. (Course it's nice to have an extra hand and an extra eye to keep watch on some of the gear at times).</p>

<p>I've offered frequent tips on how to secure some mentorship in previous threads, I'll mention a few here. The last thing I would suggest a young shooter do is to post an "I'm available to 2nd shoot/assist" thread which invites established pros to contact you. Along the same lines, avoid sending emails to area pros with the same message. Why, it appears to be lazy and self-serving. Instead, visit the studio in person (if it's a brick & mortar operation) or at the very least make a phone call requesting a meeting to talk about the field....before making contact, do your homework, be familiar with the studio website, their style, business model, and folio. Don't stress about putting together an impressive folio trying to impress the pro with how much you already know....if you don't have professional experience your folio is likely only impressive to you and probably some family and friends. Instead concentrate on your personal appearance and social skills. BTW, if you've made frequent contacts to local pros and nobody is willing to give you some mentorship it likely has more to do with your people skills than with your photography. I would also suggest that you check your attitude about established professional studios.....on the forum there is a common sentiment that established pros may be threatened by young shooters and afraid of the competition. IMO, they couldn't care less, if they are established and successful it has nothing to do with keeping potential competition down. The belief that a newcomer's shooting is so good that they are afraid of losing business is largely narcissistic thinking on the part of the newcomer.</p>

<p>Perhaps that other pro that I spoke of who still visits this forum will participate in this discussion and talk about the experience from their end......how about it DC :-)</p>

<p>Hi Marc, thanks for the insightful post on a subject that is VERY relevant to me at the moment. Getting started in this business has been a tough nut to crack. I have been very fortunate to find an established wedding pro willing to mentor me beginning in 2010. When we first spoke he explained that he remembered the impact a mentor had on him and his career and wants to do the same for other photographers just starting out. But you bring up a very important point that I needed reminding of - it isn't charity work on the part of the pro. You really got me thinking about how I can make the relationship less lopsided (currently in favor of me) and how I can drive more business towards my mentor.<br /> David, thanks for your insight and advice as well. What you say makes sense... although I sheepishly admit that I connected with my mentor by first contacting him via email. I did, however, do my homework and specifically approached this pro because I loved his work, his style and the way he seemed to connect with his clients.</p>

<p><em>"really got me thinking about how I can make the relationship less lopsided (currently in favor of me)........" </em><br>

<em></em><br>

I suspect that it's exactly that attitude that was an important element in getting the pro to take you on. Good luck :-)</p>

<h1>"Newbies and Pros ... let's get it together!"</h1>

<p>I find a valuable way of getting together with fellow professionals is through active participation with our local PPA group. Our group is called, TCPPA and we have 200 plus members working as professionals in the photography industry with some offering services in many areas with others focusing on one, like weddings or two, maybe it's weddings and seniors. <br /> We also have many vendors/suppliers who attend each of our meetings. They obviously want us to buy from them but they also are a way for us to learn. Our vendors participate in a monetary way as well so as we have a monthly newsletter with hard copy mailed to each member every month, a web site which was recently updated. We also have a roster of national speakers scheduled for 2010.<br /> We hold our meetings at a local vo-tech school that offers a photography curriculum providing opportunity where students can attend and meet people who may hire them upon graduation.<br /> If you have an organization in or near your community join. Maybe even consider volunteering & helping out. <br /> I believe in our organization and serve on the board. We are all working hard to earn & contribute toward a respectable living for our families, our associates and our communities.<br /> Happy Holidays.</p>

<p>all of you guys have great points!<br>

I am a newbie and I would love to have a mentor but I just could not figure out a way to make that happen. Now I know that its not just about me getting help, its about helping each other. I actually know a very well, amazing established photographer well, i have spoken to her on the phone asking her for advice and emailing her to say hello and she is great but I have been afraid to even mention anything. Maybe now, I will know how to approach her. </p>

Marc, this is a great post. I did not have the benefit of having a mentor when starting out, but I do mentor one young lady and I can totally see the benefit of a mutually beneficial relationship such as the one you have developed with Noel.

<p>Marc, I appreciate your thoughts and intentions in writing this.</p>

<p>I have always shot with a second/assistant and often found myself appreciating those whom I have had the pleasure of working with. My most recent second (Murray) has a great eye and often captures images that I wish I had shot. He has been mentioned/praised in emails from clients countless times these past few years.</p>

 

<p>David Wegwart, I think your response is indicative of what my intentions were.</p>

<p>I thought if those starting out could see that more established and experienced wedding photographers DID value and appreciate those assisting and shooting for them ... and there is value in it for both parties ... it would inspire more beginners to seek out a working relationship.</p>

<p>The trick is to help newbies figure out how to be of more value to the Pro, <strong><em>not</em></strong> just tell them they should apprentice while constantly harping on the fact they are not ready to photograph a wedding. </p>

<p>Well said Marc; this is an interesting subject and I'd like to comment.</p>

<p>One of the first things I do before taking on a second photographer is to make sure they are Not to Experienced! (I want to teach them to shoot the wedding in the way I see it and to learn my thinking regarding a wedding day and it's photographic flow).</p>

<p>The next thing I do is see if they are willing to learn. I test them and observe their level of willingness to go the extra step. I want to know if they are interested in the wedding day process or is their interest more in the hard payback. Hard Payback to me is money or building portfolio before learning What is needed and wanted for the bride and groom within the framework of my vision of that specific wedding day's photography. </p>

<p>Not sure I'm being clear but I've found that "agenda" is important. Some second photographers merely want to use the main photographer to attain their goals instead of learning what it is that needs to be done by a second photographer and then doing that job with enthusiasm and creativity. I want them to learn what I "need" photographically and I need them to understand what "type" of exposures give me the look I want for my style. I want them to Want feedback; I want them to want to be critiqued. I want them to learn to request the critique and feedback without defending what they did; I want this until I see that they understand What I Want! I want them to see and honor my agenda for that day. (<strong>oh my</strong> , I should feel bad about saying that but I don't because I know it's results are sound.)</p>

<p>When I see they <strong>understand what I want and how I want it framed </strong> and approached then I smile and see that it's time for them to develop their own style and method. My first goal is to create great image files for the bride and groom and my second goal is to teach a photographer to "understand" and shoot with purpose within a framework of what is needed for the wedding and not what is needed for them or their personal portfolio ... I want the second photographer to "give me" what is needed: this is a great gift to that second photographer as they move onto doing their own weddings, imo. I have so many stunning photos from my second photographers and I merely smile and thank them and they thank me; life is Good.</p>

<p>This year I've had the absolute pleasure of shooting second for two of my past second photographers! I so enjoy it and I learn a lot doing this too.</p>

<p>Shooting as a second photographer is a Learned Skill if it's taught to that second photographer as a skill. Shooting as a second photographer is Not the same as being the Main Photographer. I want them to learn the difference. I want them to understand the difference and then <strong>give</strong> me what is needed to create a great set of photos. I <strong>give them</strong> more and more responsibility when I see they are ready.</p>

<p>I delight when they get their own weddings; the best stories I get from my past second photographers are those about how hard it is to find a second photographer to do their weddings! I then have to remind them it's a learned skill and that the Main Photographer has to lead and be clear on what they want and how they want it done. Teach the second photographer to Give You what you need! </p>

<p>And the circle is then complete; shooting second is not merely "something" it's a special set of skills, IMO. LOL. Thanks for giving so much to this forum over the years Marc; it's recognized and appreciated by many.</p>

<p>It's a <em>little</em> like a marriage. Good chemistry, mutual respect, and humility. Two people can both be great people and good at what they do, but not necessarily <em>together</em>. <br>

You need to find the right person to work with, and a lot of the issues from this forum (previous posts) are not going to come up.</p>

<p>That is an interesting point Theresa. </p>

<p>Yet, I would ask if it is a practical one? Obviously it would be ideal ... if there were tons of choices for who to hook up with ... but that isn't always the case. The terms of "Marriage" may be so lofty that one may never get Married, so to speak. Maybe e-Harmony needs a division for photographer mentorships ... LOL! </p>

<p>Frankly, I've learned a lot from people who were far from humble ... a trait not usually attributed to artists : -) On the other hand, who needs to be subjected to an insufferable personality ... life is too short for that sort of nonsense. It's a balance of give and take.</p>

<p>While I may kid around about "carrying my bags" (and I do ask for that help), my criteria is first and foremost to work with an independent thinker that is most unlike me as possible. That helps assure the "value added" aspect to what is provided our clients. As the assistant reveals his/her unique perspective, I can apply my technical knowledge to "assist the assistant" achieve their goals. The synergetic reward is that I learn something in the process, while providing an expanded vision of a wedding.</p>

<p>Here is a tip that has been very successful for my business that made use of a second shooter to achieve the level of client acclaim it has enjoyed to date: </p>

<p>For almost every wedding now, we produce a 80 to 100 slide show set to music using iPhoto ... I now plan out a lot of coverage with this product in mind.</p>

<p>Using techniques more appropriate for motion picture filming, we do dual angle coverage ... not just to get a choice of images for a decisive single still application in an album, but to use <em>all of them</em> in the slide show to bring the event to life using Motion Picture editing techniques. It is then provided to the client on a USB-2 jump drive in a high resolution version which can be played on any computer. </p>

<p>I wish there was some way to share one of these with all of you ... it is so powerful with the modern computer savvy, TV oriented client that it sells our studio upon the first showing to new prospects. It is nothing like a video because it still focuses on frozen decisive moment images to fuel its emotional impact. </p>

<p>Not only is this NOT possible without a second, it makes them critical to whole process ... thus a valued contributor. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>I've been seeing a lot of hypocrisy about assistants or 2nd shooters from posters on this site. If they're really a critical part of the day, than they should be compensated properly, not compensated in the terms of, "future work" or "experience." I think one could justify working for college credit in the form of an internship, but really there is no reason for someone to work for free. In fact, I think it's against the law in some states.</p>

<p>Why is it that it's ok for people to work for free for you, but not ok for them to take your business away by doing the same job for less? Why is it ok to complain about Craigs-listers rates and then become a cheapie yourself by not paying them? Don't other industries pay for training? My assistants, wether newbies or experienced pros are compensated very well. They're even covered under my disability insurance. Why would you want future professionals going into the field with a value system that expects free labor?</p>

<p>Senor, can you provide a link to any post where someone said they don't pay their assistants? I have had newbies volunteer to work for free, but have always paid them something even then. </p>

<p>Also, I have never heard of a second shooter that works for free. If there are any in the Detroit area who work for free, please contact me ... LOL!</p>

<p>Kidding aside, there is a lot of pressure on making income as a wedding photographer. In many cases, the primary photographer can shoot most weddings alone ... and the assistant can have an impact on profitability ... but it is still something many photographers do to help the less experienced person learn.</p>

<p>Again, if people looking to work with an experienced shooter would just do a bit of thinking from the Pros perspective, it could lead to a more mutually beneficial relationship. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>I am not shy about saying that I do offer an interested "person" the opportunity to shoot second and I tell them they will not get paid until I see they can do the job and show the interest and zest that it takes to do the job correctly.<br>

 <br>

It's the great part of the free enterprise system; like Marc, I always end up "giving" them something ... even if it's just my valuable time and feedback on how they did and what they might consider doing the next time to create the skill set necessary for "the job". The most shallow means of payment is cash, imo.<br>

 <br>

I'm very clear up front what the deal is and I think this "method" is a great way to weed out the interested from the uninterested which saves everyone time.  The first interview I ask them to bring their equipment and after talking we shoot together for an hour or so.  I am trying to discover what they know; my time is not "free" and it's valuable and I give it freely towards the interview: hey, maybe I should Charge Them!  hmmm.<br>

 <br>

Our Country is starting to lean heavily towards a mentality that seems to advocate a system that speaks loudly about Giving people something without that person actually Earning it in some way other than outright cash. This practice, imo, is not only misguided it's dangerous to the recipient in many ways.<br>

 <br>

There are many, many ways to be paid and to earn something other than cold hard cash.  I may be different than others but I prefer to train a new/interested person how I want the wedding date looked at and treated with a camera: I don't want a polished and finished photographer who "knows" everything... nope, I'd rather take a person with energy and passion and ask them to "Give" me some time to see if they have the right stuff and I, like-wise, give them my valuable time to train them and give them the opportunity to learn a great skill that they are passionate about.<br>

 <br>

I can say that those who have worked with me, to this point, are grateful and fulfilled and thriving so <strong>I'll not accept the view</strong> that I must do something that appears honorable but, IMO, is only an alternative for those who only want to "hire" a set of skills and the relationship part of the "agreement" is based on Money.  Frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing the non-human "right" way of doing things that seems to shame those who actually give while asking others to give in a process that is void of monetary exchange at every turn in the road.  (yes, I do barter photography sessions if the deal is right!)<br>

 <br>

I, for a fact, know that <strong>"giving" a person a chance</strong> and asking them to "give" something into the deal is much harder on me while being much more meaningful, in a human way, to the second and to myself.  I ask them to work for free for a limited time (with No Shame) but I don't tell them I'm working for free when I spend hours and hours with them guiding them into "the art".<br>

 <br>

Life is Good ... sometimes compensation is "valuable ether stuff" that endures and creates human value, IMO. It's actually "better" than a cold and impersonal cash exchange.<br>

 <br>

For those who prefer the less interactive method of pure exchange of Money Stuff I say if it works for you then wonderful but please take a few moments to consider the values of a more interactive method that can lead to something of tremendous value as well; I don't accept the cold hard money exchange combined with the put down on a more personal method that involves giving of time and effort and human interaction  in payment.</p>

<p>I always pay a second/assistant too. Sometimes less than others, but always paid.</p>

<p>Now, if I am providing all kit and all they have to do is show up (most cases), I pay less than for an experienced second who totes their own gear and provides me with finished jpgs.</p>

<p>I have been asked (many times) to take someone along just for the experience on lots of occasions. I don't normally take them up on these offers as they usually happen to overlap with my current second, and unless its a huge (300 + guests) wedding, I cannot use a third shooter.</p>

<p>Not sure why this upsets you anyway Senor, after all, it is often a way for a newbie to break into the market with someone who's instruction will be invaluable to their success.</p>

<p>What I'm upset about, is all the hypocritical talk about the financial devaluation of photography. When you ask individuals to work for free, you are perpetuating the (downward) income pressure Marc mentions. Do you want our future artists to grow up thinking that they should work for free or take jobs for less? Without proper monetary compensation, how are they ever going to get past the level of the part-timers that everyone on this forum complains about? Working at Walmart? Help from Mom & Dad? There are plenty of low paying jobs out there already and photography doesn't have to be one of them.</p>

<p>William, the righteousness you feel from taking advantage of someone's desperation to learn is disgusting. Everyone learns on the job, including yourself. The fact still remains that any individual that you take on is helping you make money, even if they simply carry your bag for a few hours. They should be compensated monetarily, even if it's in the form of minimum wage. </p>

<p>The Fact of the matter is that I get nothing but Gratitude from people I've taken on as second photographers and are now either running their own business or on the verge of doing so.</p>

<p>How do you explain away the Gratitude towards the relationship senor? I won't personally bash you for choosing to not get involved with newbies: that's a choice you make. You want a finished product and it's not really important to you whether that person "fits" into your style or gets what you need at the wedding. Just pay them and get the image files and slap some money in their hands is good enough. You might enjoy having minimized human interaction and prefer giving money for a product: that's great!</p>

<p>Well, it's not the way I enjoy operating and <strong>I'm not asking anyone to do it that way</strong> but I don't like to be demonized for Bartering my skills for a bit of time when the end product is agreeable and human and it actually Grows a person (professionally and personally) in the process. It sounds like what you want is more like Socialized Photography that can be rigidly controlled like it's a Union! That's scary. You have not a clue about the time and effort that goes into it so just keep slapping money in their hands and I'll teach them and trade my time and knowledge with them for their time until they can stand up and proudly take on their first wedding with me as a second shooter (for no fee at all in many cases) ... Life is Good when a person actually Earns and Learns at the same time. Don't forget that we're talking about newbies here and not finished second shooters: that is the threads focus.</p>

<p>Why is "money" the only trade that a person can be given. People in Welfare states are crippled by "given money" and it's well known to be a way to enslave people: why not interact and teach a trade and allow a person the dignity of working off the time as they learn. No one is Forcing the deal on them and they are filled with Gratitude for the special attention and Opportunity to learn. I am giving of my time: is my time not worth anything? I spend time away from weddings to help them with exposures, lighting and even processing the photos. I talk over the phone and respond to emails and multitudes of questions patiently: is my time worth Nothing? ... I give them inside knowledge on a personal level that just can't be learned in any other way.</p>

<p>I'm quite satisfied and proud of the process. It's known of as bartering and is win / win and More: it involves a relationship that extends beyond just handing over money and being done with the interaction instead a socialized enforced and controlled "it must be done this way" which is what can be seen in unionized workers in an angry forced process that always seems to be Fighting someone or something to get what they Think they Deserve instead of finding a mentor and learning an art or a trade with caring and responsible human interaction.</p>

<p>Newbies? I've used several, very interested high-school students in the past. Not only did they learn on the job, but guess what? Their mentor wasn't so arrogant as to think his time was the only thing that they should receive as compensation. Actually caring enough about them to pay for hours worked doesn't mean that I, "enjoy having minimized human interaction."</p>

<p>Jeeze, this thread wasn't meant to start a fight. The spirit of it was to bring a bit more clarity to an issue that causes some polarity on this forum.</p>

<p>That aside, I don't quite follow the logic here.</p>

<p>If someone wants to learn something they go to someone who teaches. </p>

<p>Don't teachers get paid for sharing what they know?</p>

<p>How is this different, other than the teacher is being paid in services rendered?</p>

<p>Senor, if you don't value your time the same as another, it doesn't make them wrong ... that has nothing to do with being arrogant or not caring. Arrogant would be to outright dismiss the person seeking help, and not caring would be to do nothing to help those just starting out. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Someone put their cranky pants on this morning . . . some comments here seem not in the spirit of, nor the intention of this thread at all, IMO.</p>

<p>Just on the point of the view that when starting out, one might be "working for nothing" . . .</p>

<p>I am familiar with an institution referred to here as "Work Experience". It is usually done in High School, when the Student is about 16 or 17 years. Many Students take this quite seriously and see it as a great opportunity for hands on experience and a credible addition to their very limited résumé. Students are not paid. The "employer" <em>takes on all the responsibility and additional <strong>real costs to his business</strong></em> to instruct & guide the "employee" in the trade, skill or profession.</p>

<p>However, some students do not see this as an opportunity and bemoan the fact that they are just "cheap labour".</p>

<p>Having worked on and off within this system over the past 20 years, I can categorically attest to the fact that those students who embrace the 4 weeks with open arms and put 100% effort into their "work", reap much more than any "basic wage".</p>

<p>It is very apparent that: a door opening; an opportunity sought out; a known name or contact in an organization; a credible reference; a telephone call on someone’s behalf; or just being there and doing it, can reap results which are life changing.</p>

<p>Thinking only, "how much do I get per hour", is very limited and also limiting, IMO.</p>

<p>In most cases when seeking education and / or experience reckoning <strong><em>the value of that education and experience in the long term view,</em></strong> is the better way of thinking.</p>

<p>Taking a small minded and limited “how much will you pay me?” attitude, usually renders a person an unhappy wage earner, who watches the clock until the whistle blows at the end of their shift and perhaps, they will be notably quite grumpy most of the time, as well.</p>

<p>Merry Christmas,<br>

<br />WW</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Senor, if you don't value your time...</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> "Senor's" posted photos and web site tell you everything you need to know about his time.</p>

<p>I like visiting my grandmother's house. She is remarried and her husband grew up on a farm. I would like to learn more about gardening and basic farming principles. I volunteer to go help work in the garden so I can learn from experienced folks. I don't expect any cash payment because learning is payment in itself. But, my grandma's husband always pays me about minimum wage. I don't even consider it compensation, it's more like a gift on top of a gift... You guys are splitting hairs over carrying a camera bag.. how bout 12 hours of grueling manual labor in the heat of summer. <br>

I agree with William, and though senor has a valid point he goes about it all wrong. I am a newb. I am dreading my first wedding coming up next spring. If I could be a second shooter I would be so grateful to the main photog that I WOULD PAY HIM FOR HIS VALUABLE TIME!</p>

<p><em>"For me, every single newborn gig Noel does, every senior shoot, every family portrait, becomes a potential networking wedding referral for friends and family members."</em><br>

Hi Marc, can you provide a little more information on the above statement? Do you mean if <strong>you</strong> are approached and asked to shoot a newborn, senior or family portrait gig you pass those along to Noel and thus satisfy the client while making a new contact? <br>

Or do you mean that those are jobs generated by Noel on her own? If the latter how does that turn into a potential wedding referral for you? Does she talk you up and/or pass along your card for future reference?<br>

I'm trying to come up with additional value-added services I can provide to my mentor.<br>

Also, not to embroil myself in the ongoing debate, but I am also willing to provide my services to my mentor for no payment other than the experience I gain. And I consider my time a very valuable resource. That's just me though...</p>

<p>The above exchange is one of the reasons I currently limit my postings on PN. I don't mind disagreement but the attack mode seems to pervade a lot of productive posts like this one. This detracts from the very valuable information being exchanged in a civil way. I recognize the names of the above posters and they have all added a lot in their very helpful posts to PN. I respect them for their success in business. I am very interested in how they handle second shooters. I never used any in my own business, probably much to my distress of being overburdened with cameras, bags, and backs, pursuing my former method of shooting weddings. I recently, after after a hiatus from the business of some seven years took on a good paying job. I made a simple post on PN asking about current rates and immediately was attacked as not being professional for having to ask. Two working professionals ultimately gave me the info I needed, only after I was insulted a few times, oddly, by those who had never done what I was talking about. Senor, I respectfully think there is a better way to make your points without the rancor that would be more effective. Having said that, barring the unpleasantness, this is the kind of forum, sharing among working professionals, that I think this site is all about, IMHO. I am here to learn not to fight, I have had enough of that in my lifetime. > Dick Arnold</p>