Need an opinion...

So far I have been playing with 2x580EX flashes and 42" umbrellas on stands. Like what I see, want more.

 

To start with - this is NOT a question about business setup, or the best equipment for a professional studio.

If money were no object, I would get top of the line monolights from Broncolor, Profoto or Elinchrome, with Chimera

softboxes etc.

However, I need to be realistic - since photography is mostly a hobby so far. At the same time, I need to get

something which is reasonably reliable and has sufficient power.

 

So, this is a question regarding my specific choice of equipment.

 

 

I will have a space about 5x7 m, with 3m ceilings. What I will be taking pics of - some product photos, some people

photos, but mostly playing with the setup to my heart's content.

 

After researching a lot of products, I think the following set would make me happy:

 

4xWhiteLightning X1600 (640Ws) monolights, 1-2 barndoors, grid set, 3x heavy duty lighstands, 1xsmall lightstand,

boom arm.

Photoflex Multidome softboxes: one 72"x54", one or two 48"x36" (have some umbrellas and lightstands already).

 

What I like about WhiteLightning: reasonable price (lights and accesories), good power, good reputation/reliability,

user replacable bulbs, 250W modeling lights, 7-stop control, wired remote, powerpack for shooting away from power

supply.

What I may not like: some indications that color temperature may not be 100% consistent at various power settings,

slider controls (not as good as say 1/10 stop click-button), 120V only (I am in Australia with 240V mains voltage -

but getting a 1.5kW magnetic transformer is not a big deal).

Photoflex softboxes appear to be a reasonable compromise between quality and price (?).

 

Questions now:

 

Is 640Ws monolight big enough to fill the large (72"x54") softbox ? Or should I get the biggest of WhiteLightning

series (X3200 with true 1280Ws) and be done with it - just in case ?

 

The flash duration t.1 = 1/150s at minimum power, for X3200. What would be a realistic expectation regarding the

shutter speed and not having sync problems ? 1/60 or so ?

 

Can anyone comment on WL color consistency and power regulation (steepless slider) ?

 

Anyone used the Vagabond II power pack ?

 

Any other comments ?

Good Morning, Lezek.

 

I have use White Lightning Ultras (1800's and 600's) since the mid 1980's. I am completely happy with them for

both studio and location work. I believe I have had only three repairs in all that time and they were handled

with extreme efficiency.

 

The slider works quite easily and I have found I do not not miss a more definite click stop system one bit. I

shoot nothing but transparency film and have had absolutely no problems with color balance ever on that extremely

critical material!

 

I have used both Larson and Photoflex soft boxes and prefer the rigidity of the Larson as far as keeping the

front surface almost perfectly flat. They have very tense aluminum poles rather than the more relaxed fiber

glass rods. For price, the Photoflex units do work very, very well, but why not take a look at the boxes that

White lighting offers. My business partner (who shoots the 3200's) has one of their large folding Octaboxes and

is delighted with it. I suspect that the their folding soft boxes would be as rigid and they (WL) do have

inexpensive grids offered for even the largest box. Prices on these are well under those of any other major name

softboxes that I've encountered.

 

By the way, his (my partner's) extra large Photoflex box bows downward drastically (about 10-12 inches) when used

in an overhead position for some commercial work (so he never uses it) even with 5 meter ceilings. This isn't a

real problem on diffused surface items, but highly reflective subjects such as jewelry or tableware show a

definite fall off toward the edges and a reflection of the curved front of the soft box in the specular

highlights. It does require almost a foot of extra ceiling height to get it out of the way.

 

Unless you are sold on the mobility of the boom and stand being on the floor, you might want to take a look at

the wall mounted boom arm that Manfrotto makes. It bolts directly into the wall studs with four big lag screws

and is placed high on the wall to one side, extends out for over two meters (?), and covers a huge arc of

positioning in the room, while opening up the floor to human and set mobility. I trip over my own two feet, so

getting one more hazard off the floor is a big difference to me.

 

As to power, only you know what you are likely to shoot, but I started with the 600's and very quickly added the

1800's because I didn't have enough power on the 600's except to use for fill flash other than on close in, small

product work. (You might be surprised how often you end up needing huge depth of field on small table-top work,

though. I am now considering buying a couple of the 3200's, partially for that reason and partially just to

upgrade. I do much location work (architecture) and would use the 3200's for of that as well.

 

In your position, I would always opt for reserve power and then be happy if I don't need it all. Beats not

having it and desperately needing it.

 

You don't name your camera, but sync shutter speed will be a function of the camera and your own creative

choices, not a function of the flash.

 

I shoot everything from old Nikons to 8x10 view cameras, so I'm working with both focal plane shutters and leaf

shutters. On my Nikons, the focal plane shutters are limited to using all speeds up to and including 1/125th of

a second, while the leaf shutters sync at all speeds. So I can "drag the shutter" along with the flash exposure

to also capture some ambient light or show some subject movement (due to the ambient light) if I want. Or I can

use a faster speed to cancel out either motion or any light other than that produced by the strobes by choosing

the faster shutter speeds that still sync. I can also lock the shutter open in a completely dark environment and

continue to pop the flash by hand until I build up the amount of light I need on a set then close the shutter

before turning on either the modeling or room lights.

 

All of the studio and interior work on my site, www.cameraworksassociates.com was made with White Lightnings,

except for the industrial shot with the muti-colors which was taken with several smaller Vivitars with colored gels.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Tim

 

 

Thanks Tim - you answered most of my questions :)

 

Regarding my camera - I have Canon 1D MkII with 1/250 sec sync speed.

 

Now, regarding Photoflex softboxes: yes, they appear to be more expensive (and the grids are definitely more expensive) than the WL offer. However - the sizes are different too...Essentially, when you compare price per square foot of the box - the conclusion is that Photoflex is only marginally more expensive - about 20%.

 

WL "giant box" is 30x60 - Photoflex is 54x72 - which is more than twice the box (at twice the price, of course).

 

The only "but" on Photoflex MultiDome boxes is that they do not accept grids. OTOH, they have interchangeable silver and gold interiors. Their LiteDome series (bit cheaper) accepts grids - but only comes with white interior. And all Photoflex boxes come with steel rods - I could not find the info on WL regarding the material of the rods.

 

I also had a look at the softbox grids: Photoflex has 40deg grids with 2" pitch: WL (from the photo) appears to have 3" pitch, which means that it is probably 60 deg (?) grid or so: as such, these grids are probably not terribly effective.

 

I will ask WL customer service some questions - and will decide after I have the answers.

 

Regarding the lights - yes, that's what I thought...it is better to buy large flash to start with.

 

Thanks for your help :)

Leszek, excellent post, b/c I rarely get to suggest something other than Buff lights in here b/c of peoples wants/needs-- but for you I do.

 

Regarding the synch, first, as Tim stated it's a camer/trigger function. If the flash duration is too long, you'll clip some power, but it won't give you the black bar synch error. It does make it trickier to make adjustments w/o metering again... but that's another post.

 

Buff doesn't have the same guarentee outside the states. You also live in a rare 240v (50mhz) country, so you'll need a transformer or the battery mentioned above (which I've overheated). In addition, you'll have to ship internationally to both receive and repair-- as there's no Buff repair places outside the US that I'm aware of. While this may not make a Buff purchase totally impractical, it does sully some of their selling points that we point out to American Consumers.

 

In addition, you are going for 4 lights-- which I've always held is the cut off point for mono lights. I'd strongly recommend a pack and head system, and let me tell you why. Let's compare this to a one 1200 w/s pack by Hensel (Pro Mini 1200), which already can handle 240v. It handles 4 heads per pack.

 

1. Your 4x WL solution above, will max out your key light at 660ws. The pack will let you have a single light at 1200ws if you want. Or one at 600, and 2 at 300, etc.

 

2. You need to adjust your power setting on your light on the boom-- you better have the optional remote. And... here's the kicker, that remote handles 4 lights, if you get a 5th... The pack can be on a cart next to you at hip level-- all the controls are right there.

 

3. If you expand, one additional pack will now give you more flexibility and ease of use than more monolights. Not to mention, since you distribute power from a central source, you dont' waste any. If you turn down one head, you can route it to the others. Using the asymetrical tools available, of course.

 

4. Upgrading is easier, b/c the heads you are buying for the pack handle at least 3000 jules. So a bigger pack will work w/ the same head. In addition, it will take up to a 650w modeling lamp, if you so desire.

 

A) Down side is, b/c you are buying heads that handle so much more juice, the start up is a little pricier. However, if you can buy them w/o international tarrifs, it may work out the same.

Excellent suggestion, Nathan, and one I was considering...for some time. But the smallest Hensel head is 1200Ws

which means that the 1200 power pack is kind of smallish - and you need to split the power. Which means that at

max output I only have one head available.

 

I am sure that a setup like 4xHensel EH-Pro 1200 heads + Tria6000-S pack with 6000 WS available power is a sweet

setup - but it is above my means/needs, and while offering a lot - it is rather a larger studio setup.

 

I think that for my needs the WL setup offers most flexibility: remote control (wired) is cheap - only $99, and

offers full power control. If more than 4 light are used (not likely in my case) - it can always be fired by

optical slave, or I can get get another $99 wired control and a splitter for the synch cable. The replacement

bulbs (both flash and modeling) are reasonably priced. The Vagabond power pack is cheap enough to get two (what

you said is true, running 3 or four large bulbs may easily overheat the gizmo). Indoors - well, I would have to

get the transformer (no problem - although they ar 4x as expensive here as in the good old US).

 

Elinchromes have been on a radar for some time - but only the smallest 400BX is 240V compliant, and remote is

limited to flash triggering only. Withe the RX series - full remote control is possible (with computer), but they

are pricey (even the replacement flash bulb is about $170).

 

The repair - well, they supposedly do not fail :)

 

But, when they do - I always have 3 working monolights, and 4th one on the way to Paul Buff. Inc.

When the power pack fails - well...

 

So - I was trying to consider all aspects: initial costs, spares, power, redundancy, mobility (with power pack)

etc. It seems to me that no other system is able to meet all these requirements within the budget I am prepared

to spend. As I said - I am not a full-time professional.

 

Regarding the synch issues - this was probably bad wording on my part. With flash duration of 1/150sec the

shutter speed will be limited (if I want to freeze motion) - but it is not too bad in comparison to other brands

(which mostly qoute only t.5 times - but 3x the quoted value is a good indication for t.1, I think).

 

At any case - thanks a lot for suggestions - and if anyone else wants to chip in - I am waiting !

"But, when they do - I always have 3 working monolights, and 4th one on the way to Paul Buff. Inc. When the power pack fails - well..."

 

I HAVE to address this common misconception. An accurrate analogy would be if a head failed-- you'd still have 3 working heads, but still have a grand total of 1200ws to split between them. A pack is not built like head or even a monolight. I have a "failed" pack sitting in the corner right now-- what that means, and I have 2 things wrong w/ it (I think), is that 4 of the 6 plugs work, I can't use two. And apparently I lost a capaictor too, so I have 1200ws instead of 2400ws available. When I send it off, it's true I'll be w/o power; however, if it was my only pack, I could still send it off at a non critical time-- and in my own country ;-) (I use Speedotron, but they only do 120v and 220v).

 

As Ellis has mentioned, t.1 is very close to 3x t.5 durations.

 

As for adding a 5th light, the remote is to adjust the power, so a photo slave won't help. A five light system is a very common portrait set up. But, you may not need it-- I would get the remote for the WL's if you go that route.

 

I didn't mention this, b/c I was guessing you are getting hte transformer-- you can't run anything constant off the Vagabond. That includes modeling lights, and it specifically states that in the instructions w/ the Vagabond II. I can tell you that during an outdoor shoot I didn't know I had a 250w modeling lamp on, and my Vagabond shut down. It stays down for a while in my experience (though no other complaint, other than weight, w/ it's performance) (didn't want to seem too negative).

 

 

As for power-- if you split the Hensel mini to a 1000 and 200 (e.g.) channels (btw, the Hensel Pro Mini has _nice_ controls), you would have 2x 500ws, and 2x 100ws accents. I'm not sure what your set up is going to be... but that's a lot of light. It's currently pretty close to what you will be shooting w/ the above mentioned WL's.

 

But... that is definitely my choice even here in America-- the price and the availability of a cheaper 800ws pack is one reason I started w/ Speedotron. I'm not sure what's the price difference after the WL's international surcharge and intenational shipping, but if you do, I'm curious-- regardless of your final selection, it's a bit of trivia I'm interested in.

Well, Nathan, it goes like this: 4xWL X1600 (660 Ws each) is about $1900, with some spares (bulbs, flash and

modeling), barndoors, grids, speedrings etc. it comes to about $2600 for 2600 Ws total. There is no customs

duties on photo equipment in Australia, so I just need to add 10% GST (VAT) and shipping charges. Fedex Priority

is the most expensive (about 3x UPS), but I always use them (delivery to the door with all customs issues sorted

out), so I need to count another $1000. Altogether - a tad under $4K.

 

Hensel Pro Mini with two heads (1200 Ws together) is $3050 at B&H. $300 GST and $700 Fedex Priority: altogether

again $4K - but only two heads and half the power.

 

I don't even dream about buying any of this stuff in Australia: while lenses/cameras went significantly down in

the last couple of years here, lighting equipment is still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced. For instance -

Elinchrom RX 600 monoblock is A$1475 here. For comparison - at B&H it is $867 plus $167 shipment (single light,

and no GST/VAT as the value is under $1000).

 

I could not find a supplier of Hensel gear in Australia: this is not to say that some small import/export

business does not carry a couple of lights, but I am 99% sure that the gear needs to be sent out of Oz in order

to get fixed.

 

There are shops that sell some Korean stuff - like this, for instance: Hyundae monoblock 1200Ws with 1000W

modeling lamp - cool $2K a pop. Or Flashpro (?) 250Ws monolight - at $880. Or 3000 Ws power pack (also Hyundae)

at $5500. Now, I do not know these brands (at least B&H does not carry these), and they are bloody expensive -

so no cigar here.

 

Have a look for yourself: http://www.dragonimage.com.au/xclass.asp?page=2&xid=19

 

For me the best option is Mr Buff (or B&H, where I have spent a small heap of dough over the years).

Thanks for the info :)

I own 4 Alien Bee AB800's and 1 White Lighting X1600 and LOVE my setup. The WL X1600's are extrememly powerful. I did a shot at night of a large building and was able to light the whole building and buildings next to it with 1 X1600 at full power on a Vagabon I . With 4 X1600's you would be able to light damn near anything you wanted. Your biggest problem may be blowing fuses by pulling too much current. I had a friend that had three x1600's and a 3200 in a motel banquet room and kept popping the hotels circuit breaker. He had to reduce the power and change to multiple plugs.

"I don't even dream about buying any of this stuff in Australia: while lenses/cameras went significantly down in the last

couple of years here, lighting equipment is still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced. For instance - Elinchrom RX 600

monoblock is A$1475 here. For comparison - at B&H it is $867 plus $167 shipment (single light, and no GST/VAT as the

value is under $1000)."

 

Unfortunately, GST is charged on the value of the goods PLUS shipping, so USD $867 plus $167 equals $1034, which

equals $1194 AUD at today's rates. When you add GST $120 plus Customs charge of $55 you end up with AUD $1369.

As you can see, NOT such a huge difference (plus the B&H RX strobes are 110V only, not 240V!). Sure, I'd like it to be

cheaper, too, but I'm not too disappointed with a small difference on a product designed to last a lifetime.

 

In your case, I would recommend the Elinchrom D-Lite4 kit, about AUD $1250 at Kayell. Same consistency as all the

other Elinchrom strobes, and a very capable bit of gear. I use them and am very happy with them. All Elinchrom

accessories are compatible so you can move up in the system if you need to, and they are more consistent than Alien

Bees, colour temperature-wise! (The Bees change colour, especially at lower powers). Also, being able to adjust your

power in 1/10 of a stop increments is something that is very easy to get used to. :-)