Need Advice re: Booked Wedding Photographer Please!

<p>Hi all. New to these parts. I am a professional photographer, and now a bride.</p>

<p>I recently booked my wedding photographer based on the work I saw on their website and blog. Everything I saw up until the day I gave them a VERY HEFTY (nearly $3000) deposit was fabulous.</p>

<p>Then, literally just after I gave them this money (which is 50% of the package cost), no wedding photos were posted. Here and there are other types of shoots, though it honestly seems as though it's a different photographer. The editing looks careless, the lighting arrangement is awful, the retouching very shoddy. I would never, ever, evvvver in a million years have booked based on the past 3-4 posts. It makes me sick to my stomach and very sad to see these photos and know that this is in charge of my wedding day. I am spending over double what I wanted to spend because as a photographer, I just wanted to make sure I had nothing to worry about (photo wise) on my wedding day. </p>

<p>The wedding is over a year away (late 2011). I know the photographer is not booking weddings even nearly every weekend at this point. Do you think there is any chance we could get even a portion of our deposit back if we cancel now? I can't afford to take that kind of loss, but I also can't afford to pay another $3000 and risk getting terrible photos of a day that only happens once.</p>

<p>Any advice is so greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p>What does his or her contract say about cancellations? If it says you don't get money back, you won't get money back. About the only thing you can do is to express your concerns to the photographer, listen to what he or she says, and make your decision.</p>

<p>My cousin went through something similar. The photographer's website looked good, I wouldn't say amazing, just good. When it came time to view her images, they were God awful! Dark, blurry, oddly colored.<br>

I would definitely express my concerns with him. Are you certain that he is the only photographer or does he contract others? Pay very close attention to his contract. If you do decide to cancel with him, does he refer to it as a 'deposit' or a 'retainer'? Legally, a deposit is refundable.</p>

<p>A part of my deposit is non-refundable. Says so in the contract. I often get MORE than the deposit amount paid up front, which I appreciate, but if someone canceled, they would be able to get back the difference between what they paid and the non-refundable part. I've never actually charged as much as $3000 for the whole shebang. My non-refundable deposit is more like $500 usually. To me, a non-refundable deposit of $3000 for a wedding a year in advance seems awfully, awfully high.</p>

<p>I think you could try. If you believe you've been a victim of fraud—the photographer was showing someone else's work for a while—well, I wouldn't feel obligated to tell the truth to the photographer when canceling. Tell him that you and your fiancé are breaking up and the wedding is off. On the other hand, if the photographer really is a crook, I dunno, you might be in trouble. At some point, you can call the police or a lawyer. $3000 is certainly enough to sue somebody over.</p>

<p>Are you familiar with<a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fcollections%2Fweb.html&ei=Y0-BTLflLtKgngetncWdAQ&usg=AFQjCNGvazfiiKfSmhIuEe00_UGPL3SF_w&sig2=iKcxsr62m8t830O064APcg"> the Wayback Machine</a>? It's an online archive of web pages from the past. Mind-boggling. Problem is, I'm not sure the Wayback Machine stores photos from the past, if the links have been broken. But it's sometimes a way to see what a web site looked like before a recent change. (The Wayback Machine should also serve as a reminder to us all, to be careful what we say in these forums, on Facebook, anywhere. The Web Never Forgets.)<br>

Good luck.<br>

<br />Will</p>

 

<p>Thanks everyone.</p>

<p>The contract states that if cancelled, the security deposit is non-refundable, but it doesn't specify anywhere in the contract the deposit amount. It is not a retainer, it is a deposit. </p>

<p>To address some other issues mentioned above: I do not think these people are crooks or that it is fraud, I am almost positive (from what I know of them) that it is an exclusive team of 2 photographers...not contracted out ever. </p>

<p>Personally, if it were me and I had a bride come to me over a year before the wedding and said that she didn't like how my style was changing, I would return the deposit, less any applicable prorated amounts if I have already done things like engagements sessions, etc. Why work with someone who doesn't like your photos/style?</p>

 

 

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<p>Why work with someone who doesn't like your photos/style?</p>

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<p>Reminds me of a movie anecdote. On the set of the first Superman movie, Christopher Reeve, then a young nobody, approach Gene Hackman (the villain) in awe and asked, "Mr Hackman, it's such an honor to work with you. What attracted you to this film?" Hackman's reply was, "You mean, other than the $2 million?"</p>

<p>Your photographers are obviously not the Gene Hackmans (Hackmen?) of photography, although they might be hacks. But their answer to your question might be similar: "You mean, other than the $3000?"</p>

<p>As for fraud or at least garden-variety dishonesty, don't think it's impossible. Good photographers—even those who haven't shot a zillion weddings—are at least somewhat consistent. If you saw wonderful photos on their web site earlier, and now you see terrible images, well, their might be another explanation, but I think it's not unreasonable to suspect that the earlier images were not their own, somebody complained to them, and they replaced those images with their own. It happens apparently with some regularity.</p>

<p>Be aware that the contract defines the minimal responsibilities of each party. It does NOT prevent a party from providing MORE than the contract requires. In other words, they may not be obligated, under the terms of the contract, to return your deposit, but they might be willing to do it anyway. If they're not crooks. I know that if somebody gave me this much money, that far in advance, and then changed their mind, I'd give them a substantial refund.</p>

<p>If they can persuade you that they actually are good, as you apparently thought they were, then you should consider working with them. But gosh, to pay $3000+ and then get horrible images, that's a major bummer.</p>

<p>Whatever you do, proceed in a measured fashion. Don't threaten a lawsuit as your first option. Ask to see prints of the images that were on their web site earlier. </p>

<p>Good luck,</p>

<p>Will</p>

<p>Exactly what I was saying, from a legal standpoint. No matter what you say, a deposit is not "non-refundable"</p>

<p>I may have suspected that they were using someone else's images (and hey, it's not impossible still), but the images <em>weren't</em> replaced on a website.</p>

<p>I'm speaking about the past couple months of new blog posts as compared to postings from prior to my deposit, which look like a totally different person took and edited the shots. It's very disheartening. The only explanation I can think of is that this photographer has stopped shooting as many weddings (which is seems) because they don't need to/don't want to/both, which has led to them becoming rusty and lazy about all aspects of their work. I am appalled that a professional would even show the photos as their work and be proud of them, when they've presented such fine work prior to it. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>I think the real question is what is your peace of mind worth? As long as we are doing quotes, it was Mark Twain that once said" I am not so much concerned with the return <em>on</em> my money as I am with the return <em>of </em>my money. I have no other advice to offer other than don't tip you hat. Have a course of action prepared and then re-visit with the photographers (what do their albums look like??). Hopefully the whole thing is a mis-understanding of sorts. But if it isn't, you need to be prepared to act fast.</p>

<p>P.B. writes:</p>

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<p>I'm speaking about the past couple months of new blog posts as compared to postings from prior to my deposit, which look like a totally different person took and edited the shots. It's very disheartening. The only explanation I can think of is that this photographer has stopped shooting as many weddings (which is seems) because they don't need to/don't want to/both, which has led to them becoming rusty and lazy about all aspects of their work.</p>

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<p>Oh, I think I see. Sorry for my earlier misunderstanding. So you're saying that the OLD pictures are still there in their blog—and that they are markedly superior to the new ones?</p>

<p>Hmm.</p>

<p>I don't think laziness can explain this. I have a lot of training in a number of fields—writing, music, photography. No matter how tired I am, I don't allow myself to write ungrammatical sentences. I don't stop paying attention to my spelling. I make mistakes, but not through laziness. As a musician, I don't play sloppily under any circumstances. And what makes my many, many lousy photos lousy isn't technical sloppiness, but simply lack of inspiration.</p>

<p>So I just don't see how somebody whose work USED to be really good, is now showing work that really stinks. I just don't think it happens. You GET good in the first place by developing good habits through endless repetition. Once you have the habits, they're there for you even when you're tired or not interested in what you're doing.</p>

<p>Of course, I could be wrong. </p>

<p>Will </p>

<p>I really do appreciate all of the feedback and I feel a little better about going to bat if I have to. I think I will first try and ask why the sudden change in the photos.</p>

<p>My main concern is this:</p>

<p>I certainly don't have $3000 to throw out the window. The whole thing was going to cost me nearly double that (and a new photographer will cost at LEAST that) and we're paying for our wedding ourselves. If money weren't an issue, I'd say "I'm sorry, this won't work" and hope for the deposit back, yet not sweat it if it weren't returned.</p>

<p>So, if there's no way in the universe I will get the deposit back (at least 50% of that), what am I left with? A wedding photographer who knows I am not happy with their work, potentially awkward and/or hard feelings on my wedding day? This could show through in photos. Who knows how conniving these people can be? I don't want to upset anyone for many reasons. I just feel like I'm in a really tight spot.</p>

 

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<p> If you do decide to cancel with him, does he refer to it as a 'deposit' or a 'retainer'? Legally, a deposit is refundable.</p>

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<p>Don't count on a payment being labeled a deposit or retainer as magically making it one. Much more influential is whether the terms of the contract amount to the payment being a deposit or retainer. In other words, how the contract actually works, not so much if the labelling is correct. Hold the date and/or liquatdated damages in the event of breach or cancellation type terms, ect. vs. mere initial payment is what to look for.</p>

<p>Find out what is going on with the your counterpart to the contract. Everything may be OK afterall.</p>

<p>As to legal issues and being able to obtain a refund of a non refundable payment (if that's the case) it may depend on whether there were misrepresntations, whether the contract was for a specific photographer vs. a studio. the small chance that the state has a contract recission period (usually for real esate/home improvement and other sensitive matters with a three day deadline or the like), a general contract enforcement defense perhaps if the circumstances existed.</p>

<p>Due to the unique nature of wedding photographer choices, you could seek a remedy of "specific performance" to compel the photographer to shoot the wedding if somene else is being substituted although ticking off your photographer, in the process, is a potential consequence.</p>

<p>If you decided to breach and did, the other side has a duty to mitigate damages by trying to secure alternative work which is plausable when a wedding is a year away. A failure to do so may even permit some kind of refund from a non-refundable fee is some states. The timing of a refund, if any is possible, may be inconvienent to your planning. Neverthess, contemporaneous reminders to the counterpart of that duty and refering work to them (if you can do so in good conscience to people being referred) would bolster such a claim overall.</p>

<p>We really don't know enough facts to assess your sitatuion. Certtainly you need to communicate asap to determine whether legal analysis and expense or other decisions are really warranted. Consult a lawyer a in your jurisdiction and not us for legal advice.</p>

<p> </p>

 

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<p>Thank you, John.</p>

<p>I was coming here for peer advice, not legal advice. I am a photographer as well so it's even more of a strange situation for me. I never thought I would have a predicament like this and just wanted some other perspectives, as I don't hear about this often.</p>

<p> </p>

 

<p>Did you MEET them? How did it go when you met with the photographer(s)?</p>

<p>That is a key issue I think and nothing has been said about that, which in itself, speaks volumes to me.</p>

<p>Sounds like buyer's remorse. You signed away a big chunk of change. Now you have regrets.</p>

<p>My advice? Sleep on it for a while. Chances are that everything will be fine.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

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<p><em>"Exactly what I was saying, from a legal standpoint. <strong>No matter what you say, a deposit is not "non-refundable".</strong></em></p>

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<p>I caution the OP about taking blanket legal advice here.</p>

<p>I cannot ascertain what area the OP resides and therefore cannot comment on what might or might not be refundable.</p>

<p>I would therefore argue neither can anyone make a blanket statement such as the above, even if they be an High Court Judge or an Attorney General.</p>

<p>The best advice for the OP is to seek advice from a legal professional in her area so she knows what are<strong><em> her rights and obligations</em></strong>.</p>

<p>The next best advice is for her to calm down – and stop thinking through the whys and what ifs about what is happening. She obviously does not want to proceed then she needs facts as to how she can get out of the contract she signed, by the most efficient manner possible.</p>

<p>I urge the OP to get professional advice pursuant to the specifics of her position: as in some situations and jurisdictions there is a cooling off period for contracts and such might give her an out. </p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>Thanks again everyone. It is not buyer's remorse. I was actually very, very excited. I thought maybe I was being hyper-critical and over analyzing the new "bad" photos...so I showed my fiance, and a few other untrained eyes and they took the "wtf" stance as well.</p>

<p>I will talk to my lawyer and ask their opinion. Again, not here for definitive legal advice, just wanted a few opinions from people who were in the industry.</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

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<p>"just wanted a few opinions from people who were in the industry"</p>

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<p>I would not part with 3 grand, nor consider spending 6 grand on <strong><em>any</em></strong> item or service on the basis of viewing an internet site. To extract 6K from me (which is about 10K pre tax dollars) takes face to face selling, my interpretation of their handshake; me looking into the seller’s eyes when they answer my questions; some samples and some input from previous clients also.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>For anyone who may want to know...</p>

<p>Spoke to my lawyer. She said that "liquidated damages" are only awarded when the damages owed are uncertain or difficult to quantify. In this case, being that no services have been performed or goods delivered, and it's more than a year prior to the event, it's very easy to know what sort of damages have occurred. i.e., Nearly none. Perhaps some time spent drafting paperwork, etc.</p>

<p>With over a year until the date, as a wedding photographer charging these types of rates, they surely can re-book another wedding or similar event.</p>

<p>She also said that a deposit is payment toward a final product. Nothing has been delivered and if we cancel, nothing will be delivered, therefore it should be refunded.</p>

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<p>I would not part with 3 grand, nor consider spending 6 grand on <strong><em>any</em></strong> item or service on the basis of viewing an internet site.</p>

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<p>I didn't have the heart to say that, because, well, it seems fairly obvious. I know that there ARE wedding photographers in the US who are getting $6K per wedding, God bless 'em. Some, maybe more. I dream of the day when I myself receive a $3000 DEPOSIT.</p>

<p>But I assume that anybody not only asking but GETTING this much money is, you know, getting pics on the cover of Brides magazine, has hundreds of testimonials on his web site, has a physical studio where he (or she) visits with potential brides and serves them cappuccino, etc. If it's possible to make this kind of money from a web site, without evening being very good, then gosh, I need to raise my rates. </p>

<p>(My wife's in the background mumbling, "Yes! Yes!")</p>

<p>Will</p>

<p>I didn't/don't want to reveal too much about who this photographer is, but they have been featured in notable publications and had good reviews up until several months ago.</p>

<p>It wasn't until after the deposit was given that it all went downhill.</p>

<p>And believe me, many of the photographers in my area are asking similar price tags for wedding packages like the one I chose.</p>

<p>Thanks - I always like to know the outcomes - whatever the question.<br>

Good luck with it.</p>

 

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<p><strong><em>"I didn't/don't want to reveal too much about who this photographer is"</em></strong></p>

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<p>Very sensible.<br>

<br />WW</p>

<p>BTW - re the deposit; the refundability (is that a word?) and the legal advice comments et al: <br />the odds were in favour of you being located in the USA - but $6,000 for Wedding Photography is not specific to locations in the USA . . . but I have learnt never to assume.</p>

<p>(Aside)William P. . . . for your business plan, the answers today are: <br />Soy Decaf Latte; a very sexy PA; and the necessity for you to have your hair styled twice each week . . .<br />I am either in trouble with your wife - or I have got you out of a bind and she will be happy with what your business "as is" . . . let me know how it turns out.</p>

<p>My first suggestion is to look into your local laws. Every jurisdiction is different, but in my neck of the woods, if push came to shove and a suit was filed, the photographer would be required to refund everything except $500.</p>

<p>The laws here are very specific as to what can and can't be held as a deposit and $500 is the max if no services are rendered.</p>

<p>I'm not sure about your area, but I hope this helps.</p>

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<p>(Aside)William P. . . . for your business plan, the answers today are: Soy Decaf Latte; a very sexy PA; and the necessity for you to have your hair styled twice each week . . .</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks, William. I knew I was doing SOMETHING wrong. Apparently I don't get my hair coiffed often enough, certainly don't have a PA attractive or otherwise, and I never realized that it was a faux pas to serve regular latte. I will rectify these marketing boo-boos and report back later. ;-)</p>

<p>Will</p>

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<p>Spoke to my lawyer. She said that "liquidated damages" are only awarded when the damages owed are uncertain or difficult to quantify. In this case, being that no services have been performed or goods delivered, and it's more than a year prior to the event, it's very easy to know what sort of damages have occurred. i.e., Nearly none. Perhaps some time spent drafting paperwork, etc.<br>

With over a year until the date, as a wedding photographer charging these types of rates, they surely can re-book another wedding or similar event.<br>

She also said that a deposit is payment toward a final product. Nothing has been delivered and if we cancel, nothing will be delivered, therefore it should be refunded.</p>

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<p>This advice sounds a little bit bizarre to me. I would ask another lawyer. "Liquidated damages" actually means damages that are agreed in advance (eg. "if you break the contract, you will pay $x" - in other words, if the contract had an agreed cancellation fee for example). "Unliquidated damages" are where it's left to the court to calculate how much loss the party who broke the contract caused to the other.</p>

<p>Under a contract like this you normally promise to hire them for the day and pay a certain sum as their fee. They promise to take the photos. If either of you fail to fulfil your obligation, the other is entitled to damages. So if you say you changed your mind and decide you don't want them to shoot the wedding after all, they're entitled to damages reflecting their loss of profit. If they don't turn up to the wedding, you're entitled to damages. If you promised to pay $6000 in total, then in theory the damages are $6000 (plus in theory any consequential damages they suffer though there may well not be any in this case, possibly minus any expenses they would have had to pay out of the $6000). They are under a duty to try to 'mitigate the loss', which means the good news is that if they book another wedding for that day then the amount of their damages is reduced by the amount they get from the other wedding (which might be the full $6000, or might be less, in which case you're liable for the difference). Of course, it may be difficult to prove whether they booked another wedding and how much they were paid under it.</p>

<p>$6000 liability is I suppose more of a slightly scary theoretical possibility rather than (I would have thought) a practical one. I can't imagine any wedding photographer concerned for his/her reputation would do this, they should be concerned that you might bad mouth them, and I would have thought in practise most would want a reasonable compromise about handing back a reasonable proportion of the deposit, especially where you have given plenty of notice that gives them a good opportunity to book the date with someone else.</p>

<p>As always, the above isn't legal advice and needs checking, but I wouldn't take the legal advice you've been given aready as gospel, it justs sounds odd, unless there is some special consumer rights legislation tucked away in US law that gives a right of cancellation to consumers in this case - I doubt it.</p>