need a new point and shoot

Discussion in 'Pentax' started by revolver, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. Hi People
    hope you all have been well. I browse from time to time but havent been spending much time on line lately.still shooting with my K100D though
    my kodak Z612 which I have mentioned and posted pictures taken with it here had an accident. someone knocked it off a piece of furniture and subsequently I lost the shutter button and the lens doesnt seem to extend or retract as smoothly as it once did. it is also 3-4 years old and a camera that is a daily throw in the back of the car kind of camera. dont get me wrong, I take care of it as well as I do my pentax but it is an everyday.
    so I ordered a M580 and it was terrible. I am a liitle leary of the Z981 so naturally I went to Pentax
    2 cameras caught my eye
    http://www.pentaximaging.com/digital-camera/Optio_I-10_White/
    I love the look but I know I am giving up a lot of MM compared to the Kodak but I may just have to get it cause its so damn attractive
    then I see this badboy
    http://www.pentaximaging.com/digital-camera/X90/
    YES!!
    looks a lot like the Z612 and or the Z981 but it has the name I prefer on it
    what do you think??
     
  2. Chris,

    the only camera I can recommend to photographers is the Samsung TL500.

    this camera iq wise is amazing, build is top notch, and between the fast lens and big sensor it's the best camera on the market.

    Pentax best point and shoot is it's W line, simply because they are the best in the class of tough cameras, but lack the IQ for really high quality imaging from a small sensored camera.
     
  3. You can pocket the first one, but not the second one. But that trait means nothing to me. But what's not to like about either one? I have no experience with either camera, my recent compacts were a Canon A700(?) from almost 5 years ago, and more recently a Panasonic LX3 bought spring '08. The new Panasonic LX5 had me so close to replacing the LX3, but I'm waiting to spend my bucks on a K-5. But, if the X90 is the way you are thinking, I may offer the suggestion of the Kx/Kr DLSR with a wide ranging zoom lens. Yeah, you won't find an interchangeable zoom lens that gives that kind of range, but then again you aren't going to hand hold a shot at 676mm. Heck, I have trouble hand holding my Pentax 55-300 at 300mm, I'm on a tripod just about anytime over 200mm. But the Kx/Kr will give a much larger sensor (and that renowned Kx low light/high ISO/low noise superiority) and probably other upgrade features the prosumer X90 probably wouldn't offer. Compare them side by side.
    Here's a good site to research compact camera, see what they have to say.
    http://seriouscompacts.com/ Or check DPReviews, too, to see if you can find reliable review information on any camera you may consider. Heck, even user reviews at Amazon/Adorama/B&H would be helpful.
     
  4. Christopher, I am going to have to disagree with Justin. iF you want the best cam then it is the Lumix LX-5 .Amazing auto focus speed and noise control.. Of course it comes down to Context. I am sure that for Justin, the TL500 is the best in the same way my LX-5 is best for me....
    Here is my LX-5 collection of images so far.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgredline/sets/72157624972355191/detail/
     
  5. Justin, but the I-10 is just so damn cute!
    thanks to you all for the responses so far. Steve, I have DP preview in my fav's and check them frequently but thank you for the other one
    Javier, I am getting the popcorn ready to see this escalate between you and Justin...lol
    here is what I am doing....I have the DSLR that I use for serious shooting.
    the Kodak Z612 was my first Digital I got after using the K1000 for nearly 30 years. I was spoiled by that little camera because of the image quality that I got. Some of you "pro Level" guys would probably PFT at what I think is a good shot but for me they were awesome.
    I just want something I can whip out and take a quick picture with for those times where I am not lugging my "gear" around. again the 35-420 with 5X digital zoom of the Z spoiled me.
    I just bought my Wife a Canon sd1400 IS Elf and it takes great pictures but it is a little too small for me.
    Not sure how those pictures are on the bottom of the page but the on of my wife was one of the first shots I took with my Z I believe
    thanks again for the suggestions...I will research those and let you know what I come up with.
    How you guys doing otherwise?
    any mountain climbing lately Justin?
    Javier...I got to see what new lovely ladies you have stalked in the streets recently...been postng any?
     
  6. Ok so those few picture I have posed are with the Z....Justin you "Know" those buildings. I know "now" that if you 100% them you can see massive noise but wouldnt you agree that for a Kodak camera those pictures are phenomenal for a beginner ?? not to mention the Zoom capability. thats why I feel spoiled with the Z
     
  7. Great Question !
    Panny LX-5 , Canon G-12 are the two on my short list, from a specs only perspective.
    We've got low numbered floor seats for Roger Waters 30th anniversary of "The Wall" Tour.
    I am seeing alot of utube video clips of the shows.
    Makes me want to take top end video p&s to capture a momento of his last Pink Floyd tour.
    I see so many cameras, camera phones at concerts past couple years.
    Seems worth the risk to capture the moment. Wish I had images from his prior tours I saw:
    Radio Kaos in 87, In The Flesh in 2000, Dark Side of the Moon in 2008
    Please tell me Javier, do you have
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ic_DMW_LVF1_DMW_LVF_1_External_Live_View.html
    for your Panny LX-5 ?
    Anybody got a Canon G12 ?
    I don't expect rain inside the venue, so weather sealed or a fully dunk-able camera isn't needed.
    Just something I can tuck in my undies for a bit would do me just fine
    ;^)
     
  8. Lindy.
    Having owned a G9 and a G10, I can say that the G12 is likely pretty good. My biggest concern would be the poor ISO performance those G series cams have. Though I am not sure and maybe they fixed that in the G12. Another thing to consider is the 24mm lens as opposed to the 28mm lens the canons come with. The LX-5 also has an amazing step zoom feature that is pretty cool. The ISO performance is on par with my K-7 so it is pretty dang good for a point and shoot. ISO 1600 is very use full.
    As for the view finder, I do not have one and don't plan on getting one.
    I have not used the video capture in the LX-5 and really don't plan to. Of course I am glad to have it, but I am not a video kind of guy.
     
  9. SWEET, your info puts Panny ahead of Canon then.
    I am brand agnostic when it comes to a P&S, just something top tier will do nicely
    I've never owned a video cam, so I am clueless. Panny seems a heck of of a deal, $445, so $55 less than G12.
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ic_DMC_LX5K_Lumix_DMC_LX5_Digital_Camera.html
    Then I may add finder so additional $125 or $70 more total than G12.
    I think it would be stealthier with this plug in viewfinder at a concert
    Do you use autofocus, or manual focus with it. Idiot modes or select your settings ?
    Thanx for info, Master of the Street Scene !
     
  10. That TL-500 wasn't anywhere near my shopping radar.
    Intriguing read and just $419.
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/674231-REG/Samsung_EC_TL500ZBPBUS_TL500_Digital_Point_and.html
    I got rid of my Samsung K Mounts in a unbelieveable lucky trade, not sure I want to buy any cameras branded Samsung again.
    On the phone one day with Samsung, they had no idea they had offered (ANY) K Mount cameras.
    This turned me off on their imaging products.
    I could enjoy the LX-5 with its "Leica" lens. Friend owns LX-3, I actually talked him into by providing him B&H specs a year or so ago.
     
  11. Javier
    LX-5 Meets Broadway L.A. (17) is that the guy who was in a RHCP video years ago?

    LX-5 meets HW (1) :)


    LX-5 meets walk of fame (22)

    IN NY everyone looks up...lol
    what a goofy expression on the dude looking at Basil Rathbone's star...ya think he even knows who that is??
     
  12. Javier,
    I think we'd probably be splitting hairs between the LX3/5 and Canon options to the TL500 (EX1 world wide). IQ and lens wise the TL500 is the best camera, but the firmware is lacking. However, there really isn't a need to menu dive, as a matter of fact I encourage everyone to look at the control layout here. Dual (independent) control wheels and buttons and knobs for everything including EV comp, shutter and aperture. It's as close to an SLR in design as possible...and, it does sort of fit in a pocket. I know because I did pocket it on a few occasions. But I'd say the S90 would be better for pocketing.


    I forget what site I was on, something like Compact Enthusiast???. Any way, it matched the lens of the LX5 vs. the TL500, the LX5 lost. It was good, the TL500 was just better. Remember, we are splitting hairs! I will try to track down the link, I usually tag em in delicious or webclip them to Evernote.
    Factoring in it's faster aperture, I'd have to say it wins the battle of the lens hands down.
    (Lindy, see what I just wrote above, Panasonic has a Leica lens, Samsung has a better lens. It all depends on if you want a fancy name or a fancy lens).
    Where the TL500 lacks is video. That said, I haven't used a single second of video shot on my K-7, including the only record of a trip we took in July when the K-7 shutter failed (video worked fine). I'm just not a video guy, and if you are the same the 640x480 res of the TL500 will be just fine for you. Heck, I don't even have HD video editing software...I have to down convert my videos to SD to edit them. Essentially the samsung solves that issue ;-)!
    I seem to remember the head to head ISO shots on that same site, the TL500 had better noise control and detail than the competitors (although I don't remember if that was LX3 or LX5). Again, not mind blowingly better, but noticable. Bearing in mind this wasn't a fancy DXO test, rather it was 100% JPEGS posted to the web for you and I to look at and decide for ourselves. That said, there was little room for interpretation.
    Factoring in now the ISO and the lens, the TL500 is coming out further ahead.
    So, I'm gonna stick with the TL500 as being the best camera with the caveat that I am sure the LX5 and G12 are able competitors. I know the G12 probably stuffs every possible bell and whistle into that camera. It would have to, my G3 from 2004 or so didn't leave a feature out and it is 6 years old! However, when i sat down and thought about it, I need 3 things...aperture, shutter speed, and ISO and full manual control (focus, etc)...beyond that, it's all marshmallow fluff!
    Although these were all posted in the POTWs here are a few images from the TL500 via the TL500 set.
    Oh and did I mention that BIG BEAUTIFUL SWIVELING 3.0in VGA OLED screen? Double the resolution of the Panasonic LCD!
     
  13. That TL-500 wasn't anywhere near my shopping radar.
    Intriguing read and just $419.​
    If you shop around you can get it for less. I paid roughly $365 for it at Onecall, I've used them a lot over the years and never had a problem. I consider them a reliable and trustworthy seller. Judging by it's build and it's lens quality, it's certainly worth $350 minimum when compared to the competition, and $450 isn't untirely unreasonable.
    Samsung was never really in the DSLR game, accessories were hard to find, lenses non existent, and they were just releasing Pentax clones.They probably never made any money off the DSLR division.
    But they are heavily in the digital compact market, as well as the mirrorless SLR (or ILC) market. Both of these markets are more the realm of an electronics manufacturer.Their compacts were always on my radar, but I refused to buy a compact till something like the LX3 came out.
     
  14. Lindy, its tough coming here and posting a question because these guys ALWAYS send me looking in other directions....LOL
    Not a bad thing but still....
    Justin, I really as always appreciate your opinions but you are going overkill for what I was looking at. I am not looking for something to be as good as a SLR or to replace it. I have been spoiled with the image quaility( my needs) by the Z and just want something that is not sos cumbersome> until I saw Steves Link I dikdnt even realize the I-10 was a subcompabct.
    what is that L or I -10 anyway?? lol
    I actually thought the L-10 was the size of a Kodak 135 instamatic from the picture.
     
  15. I don't think Pentax makes their P&S, that division got closed down by Hoya.
    Maybe the W90 is still manufactured by "Pentax" ? Or does it say:
    "Designed By Pentax" too ?

    Nikon is in same situation, from what I read they no longer manufacture their P&S.
    I agree, Justin complicated things by adding in Samsung when I was happily choosing between two, LX-5 and G-12
    From what I recall the problem with Pentax P&S is their even smaller sensor, not that these P&S use big sensors.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor_format
     
  16. Go to DPR and use their compare camera feature...
    The LX3/5 vs. G11/12 vs. S90/95 vs. EX1/TL500 vs. GRD vs. the new P7000 really come down to personal preferences and style imo.
    They are all win some, lose some depending on what YOU want in a digicam imo.
    For instance, if you need OVF, it will rule out everyone one except the P7000 and G11/12
    if you need tiny, then it comes down to S90/95 and GRD
    if you need the really wide then it's the LX3/5 and EX1, the rests start @28mm `
    ETC...
    These are the bigger sensor P&S not including superzooms, of course.
     
  17. I couldn't find LX-5 or G-11 or G-12 reviews at dpreview.
    Please share the review links ?
     
  18. The G12 is a minor upgrade from the G11 which is another minor upgrade from the G10. The LX5 upgrades from the LX3 are lens is longer at the tele end 60mm vs. 90mm and AF faster among other things...
    Not sure about reviews (They are recent and not major upgrades imo) but I would look at seriouscompacts.com or try google.
    Or if you prefer DPR then lookt the the g10 and LX3 review, they are 80-90% similar to their newer replacement
     
  19. Thom is planning a big article on better P&S in the future. But for me, I'd like to buy in next two weeks. I've handled G12 locally. Canon added the wheel in front and video to G-12. I like its optical viewfinder too, making it a stealth concert shooter, I'd guess.
    I've yet to handle LX-5, but wider angle is appealing. Everyone seems to love Canon S90, S95 for "pocketable" cam. As I am looking for great bootleg video cam, best one for video would be most important to me, along with stills cam to use in future.
    Thom Hogan talked about his LX-5, yesterday Oct 18th:
    http://www.bythom.com/
    "New Stuff: Panasonic LX5 Short Take
    Oct 18 (commentary)--
    I'll eventually have a complete update to my Compact Shootout article (originally P6000, G11, LX3, this time P7000, G12, LX5), but I thought to be fair, I'd do short takes on each as I've had a chance to use them a bit. I've already written about the P7000 (now on the 2010 Nikon News archive page). Today the LX5.
    There was a lot to like about the LX3, and I'm happy to report that Panasonic apparently understood what that was and stuck with it. Going from a LX3 to an LX5 is almost a no-brainer, as the new camera and it's controls are near identical to the older version.
    So what's different? The lens is 24-90mm instead of the previously restrictive 24-60mm (but still a fast f/2 at 24mm, and only f/3.3 at 90mm). The joystick has been replaced by a command dial. There's a 1/4000 shutter speed added. And there's now the option of adding the GF1's EVF viewfinder. Plus, of course, the sensor has been updated, with the claim of an expanded dynamic range. There are other small changes, too, but none that are particularly significant to our discussion.
    The body looks the same, but actually, it's a teeny bit different, which a redesigned grip that makes it easier to hold. The LX5 is also slightly heavier than the LX3, but you'll still find this an incredibly light camera (lighter and smaller than the P7000 and G12). Overall, this is a very photographer-centric camera: while it's not at all retro and doesn't have all the dials and buttons of the P7000 and G12, it takes only a few minutes to understand how to get quick access to the things you want to change frequently. The only complaint I have is that, like virtually all Panasonic LCD displays, the overlays are so busy that it becomes a bit problematic for framing, so you end up turning the overlay information off and on a lot (including the histogram, which needs a bit of work of its own). Panasonic needs to carefully rethink what information the shooter needs, when they need it, and how it is displayed.
    As before, people want to know about image quality. Pretty darned good, actually. The LX5 definitely is a step forward from the LX3, which was pretty good itself. But it's that fast lens that really shakes things up in the serious compact race: f/2 is already a stop faster than the f/2.8 of the Coolpix (at 90mm, the Coolpix is only down two-thirds of a stop, though, at f/4). Put another way, the Panasonic sensor could perform one stop worse than the Nikon's in low light and the image should still come out about the same if you used aperture to compensate. But from what I see, the sensors are pretty close, so that extra stop on the lens does indeed give the Panasonic an advantage, I think. I'll know more when I've managed to go through all my testing procedures.
    The LX5 is no speed demon shooting raw, but it's faster than the P7000. And a full buffer flush appears to be about three times faster (5 seconds instead of 15). Focus speed generally is faster with the LX5 than the P7000, but not always--the P7000 seems to do better when the AF Assist light is needed, for instance.
    Overall, the LX5 feels a bit more like what I want a compact camera for than the P7000: wide to moderate telephoto, usuable in modest low light, small enough for a shirt pocket, and simple enough to fully control in the heat of battle. We'll see how that all stacks up against the competitors soon, but I'm carrying the LX5 more than the P7000 at the moment, which should tell you something."
     
  20. The I-10 is kind of cute but really doesn't hold a candle to the premium compacts being discussed here, nor would we expect it to based on the huge price difference.
    One of the bigger differentiators among the cameras discussed is the zoom range and speed, the cameras are all reasonably competitive otherwise (though I haven't seen tests yet to verify that the new Nikon P7000 doesn't have a few flaws like sluggish AF that have plagued some of their earlier efforts in this category).
    • Samsung TL500: 24-72/1.8-2.4
    • Panasonic LX5: 24-90/2-3.3
    • Canon S95: 28-105/2-4.9 (only one that is pocketable but sacrifices include loss of hotshoe)
    • Canon G12: 28-140/2.8-4.5
    • Nikon P7000: 28-200/2.8-5.6
    Other differentiators: optical viewfinder, accessory electronic viewfinder, whether or not rear LCD swivels, video shooting specs
    I think most of us here wish that Pentax was playing in this field, that they could bring what we like about their SLR cameras to a premium compact...but so far they have not. Another issue is that these cameras are nearly as expensive as the entry-level for the larger-sensored MILC cameras like Olympus E-PL1, but the MILC cameras unavoidably grow quite a bit in size when a zoom lens is mounted but offer considerably better performance in many areas--for one, the premium compacts generally offer sluggish raw throughput/continuous shooting.
     
  21. I would also put the GRD3 in there and it's also pocketable like the S90/95 and a F1.9 but prime lens. The LX3/5 is right on the border as for pocketable. The Nikon, G11/12 and EX1 are not really pocketable except for very large pockets. It's a tough decision...
     
  22. Milc ?
    Here's an EVIL sales chart at Amazon US, top 50 sales:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/2322738011?ie=UTF8&ref_=pd_ts_e_nav
    I agree, once you approach $500 then why not Milc, or cheap dslr, or why not spend even more and get what you really want ?
    I'd like to add a P&S. Though I could skip The Wall concert momento shots / video and buy another lens. Thats always a fun choice. $500 puts a dent in a couple lenses on my wish list. Well one or the other, not both.
    I bet if people are around me shooting, then I'll see concert footage posted from the night of the show, somewhere on the net. If not, then we'll have same binocular assisted memories we usually capture, in our heads.
    Hey, any advise on buying binoculars oufitted as HD digital camera ?
    ;^)
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=binocular+digital&ci=978&N=4294249681
     
  23. seriouscompacts.com sounds like the site I got my decision to buy info off.
     
  24. the tl500, et al. Is still significantly more compact than all but the tiniest ilcs...beyond that it becomes an issue of small vs fiddly. The lenses on the ilcs are the issue. Believe me, I know because I was all set to go Oly Pen instead of compact.

    the TL500 WILL fit into a front pocket on your non skinny jeans, and definitely a cargo pocket. My issue is that it's tanl like build makes it heavy for pocketing...but in a pinch it's fine!

    one think to remember these high end compacts actually rival micro 4/3 IQ. Not bad for a self contained unit that is borderline pocketable and has a 3-4X zoom at around F/2!
     
  25. MILC: mirrorless, interchangeable lens camera.
     
  26. I agree, once you approach $500 then why not Milc, or cheap dslr, or why not spend even more and get what you really want ?​
    Dslrs and mirrorless cameras with similar ranges/speed as these compacts would be much bigger and much more expensive. However, if you are satisfied just with a prime, I would get the sony Nex, samsung NX or a M4/3rd cam with a pancake lens...
     
  27. Whoa, was not expecting a novel here :) but that is cool. I will read the thread at Lunch and continue the argument for the LX-5 ;-)
     
  28. Haha, did you really expect any less?
     
  29. LOL Javier
    thanks for all the responses. I see we are just as passionate about the P&S pocket cameras as we are about our DSLR's.
    I think that makes it harder for people like us to be satisfied with anything smaller than what should naturally be.
    I got my Wife a Canon sd1400is and for me it is way to small. for her...shes happy as a clam.
    I have to consider what I want. Do I want a pocket camera and feel like I am missing "that Shot" or do I want to always lug around a duffel bag full of just in case I needed it gear. I would love to be carefree about it. it is sometimes exhausting to be OCD
    lol
    thanks again people. Please continue. lots of good suggestions
     
  30. Javier,
    I think we'd probably be splitting hairs between the LX3/5 and Canon options to the TL500 (EX1 world wide). IQ and lens wise the TL500 is the best camera, but the firmware is lacking.​
    First, from all accounts I have read and in my own research, the LX-5 is quite the improvement over the LX-3, especially in Auto focus speed, noise control and DR range..As far as IQ goes, what are you basing your facts on? As as far as firmware goes, I believe the LX-5 could use a tweak here to. The Jpeg color balance is off a tad. Easy to correct though and I am nit picking.
    However, there really isn't a need to menu dive, as a matter of fact I encourage everyone to look at the control layout here. Dual (independent) control wheels and buttons and knobs for everything including EV comp, shutter and aperture. It's as close to an SLR in design as possible...and, it does sort of fit in a pocket. I know because I did pocket it on a few occasions. But I'd say the S90 would be better for pocketing.
    The control lay out is the least of it. What I have done with mine is I have set up the custom controls to my liking. The LX-5 has 4 Custom settings. As an example. MY C1 is my street setting. I have it set up at 24mm, AV F/2.0, ISO 200, burst mode, matrix metering, 23 seg auto focus, Hi DR range and STD film mode...From here I will tweak on the EASY to get to ISO and EV comp button....My C2 is set up very differently. Program mode, center focus, Forced flash, ISO 80 and use it for common snap shots...It is as easy as turning a knob to get from one cam to another. :) As far as pocket cam goes, the LX-5 is smaller than my old G10 and about the same size as my dead G9. It does fit in my pocket....


    I forget what site I was on, something like Compact Enthusiast???. Any way, it matched the lens of the LX5 vs. the TL500, the LX5 lost. It was good, the TL500 was just better. Remember, we are splitting hairs! I will try to track down the link, I usually tag em in delicious or webclip them to Evernote.​
    Well, I am a member of that forum and I can tell you that the test are anything but scientific their. It is a great little community but it is really no different that what we do here on P.net. Secondly, there is no way you are saying that Samsung makes a better lens than Leica are you :)
    Factoring in it's faster aperture, I'd have to say it wins the battle of the lens hands down.​
    F/1.8 vs F/2.0...LOL.. In my case what good is a lens that 1/3 of a stop faster, if it is slow to auto focus? In fact, the slow Auto focus of the samsung is a huge complaint I keep reading about and was what turned me off. So the Leica system wins hands down.
    (Lindy, see what I just wrote above, Panasonic has a Leica lens, Samsung has a better lens. It all depends on if you want a fancy name or a fancy lens).​
    Good grief...Now this is funny. If Samsung made such stellar lenses, why not make them for DSLR's and advertise them as better than Leicas?
    Where the TL500 lacks is video. That said, I haven't used a single second of video shot on my K-7, including the only record of a trip we took in July when the K-7 shutter failed (video worked fine). I'm just not a video guy, and if you are the same the 640x480 res of the TL500 will be just fine for you. Heck, I don't even have HD video editing software...I have to down convert my videos to SD to edit them. Essentially the samsung solves that issue ;-)!​
    Same here. I have used the video a few times in the K-7 but that is about it. Not a video kind of guy. I suppose if I needed video for video, I would buy an HD video cam with a Leica lens ;-)
    I seem to remember the head to head ISO shots on that same site, the TL500 had better noise control and detail than the competitors (although I don't remember if that was LX3 or LX5). Again, not mind blowingly better, but noticable. Bearing in mind this wasn't a fancy DXO test, rather it was 100% JPEGS posted to the web for you and I to look at and decide for ourselves. That said, there was little room for interpretation.​
    What I do know is that the LX-5 is on par with my K-7 as far as noise control goes. So this I can live with in a point and shoot. How does your SAMSUNG compare to your K-7 in the noise dept?
    Factoring in now the ISO and the lens, the TL500 is coming out further ahead.​
    Actually, I disagree. More and more the LX-5 is pulling ahead. Noise control on par with the K-7 DSLR, crazy fast auto focus speed, leica lens, step zoom and pocket able...
    So, I'm gonna stick with the TL500 as being the best camera with the caveat that I am sure the LX5 and G12 are able competitors. I know the G12 probably stuffs every possible bell and whistle into that camera. It would have to, my G3 from 2004 or so didn't leave a feature out and it is 6 years old! However, when i sat down and thought about it, I need 3 things...aperture, shutter speed, and ISO and full manual control (focus, etc)...beyond that, it's all marshmallow fluff!​
    I agree except stick the LX-5 in place of the SAMSUNG. :)
    Oh and did I mention that BIG BEAUTIFUL SWIVELING 3.0in VGA OLED screen? Double the resolution of the Panasonic LCD!​
    Actually, this may matter to some, but not for me. Infact this is a turn off to me...
    At the end of the day, it is splitting hairs. But I do not believe the Samsung would work for me as a street cam because it is simply to slow. The G10 was also a slow to focus cam which is why I sold it. The G9 which was older was faster to auto focus, but no place near the LX-5. I also love all the in camera film types and settings that I am still learning and using. The battery life is pretty amazing as well. So hands down the LX-5 is the way to go.
     
  31. Let me preface this by saying, I enjoy the challenge of working around a cameras limitations. But...
    I am saying Samsung makes a better lens than Leica "branded" lenses. And really there is no reason Samsung CANNOT make a superior lens. I'm doubtful these lenses are handmade in Germany either.
    Marketing is awesome, but just like the Schneider lenses Samsung and Kodak used in the past, including Pentax clones, Leica most likely didn't even design this lens. I'm sure Panasonic sends Leica a copy and says, "is this OK to put your name on." but beyond that Leica doesn't do much.
    Bottom line, I'm fairly certain your Leica lens has about as much Leica in it as your Sigma 10-20mm!!!
    As far as the head to head test on serious compacts, if your arguing that they aren't valid I'd love for you to explain why? I can look at two images and either confirm or deny that one image is sharper than the other, that one image displays better bokeh, one displays better contrast or less CA. It's not like we are comparing lines of resolution or bits of dynamic range.

    The OP put up side by side test, the TL500 beat the LX5, not sure what there is to debate. Perhaps the LX5 was a bad copy. Fair enough. Other than that possibility, the TL500 has a superior lens. Considering it also beat the LX3 I'd start to question Panasonic quality control if you are making that argument both times.
    I always have a problem when reviews are comparing JPEGs. I cannot say it enough, you are getting vastly superior results from a RAW file. It is entirely possible Panasonic does a better job on JPEGs, but the fact is I only care about RAW, and to me, MOST people buying this camera are going to shoot RAW. As a matter of fact, the reason most photographers look hard at cameras like the G series, the TL500, the LX3/5 is the ability to shoot RAW.
    If your ultimate goal is the very best in IQ, then you are shooting and processing RAW files. I'm not going to argue the LX5 isn't better at JPEGs, because quite frankly it's not relevant to my workflow. I can say that both the detail and noise levels in a RAW file from the TL500 are exceptional. Actually beyond my expectations of a camera that size. Very close to micro 4/3s in comparison, and as you noted, not far from DSLR. Considering the size of the camera, absolutely amazing.
    As far as speed, the TL500 isn't fast shot to shot in RAW (Samsung decided to use 22MB RAW files), but it's gotta be as fast a film camera with manual wind. At least a frame a second when MF is used. You can really shoot your film SLRs like the ME (without a winder) faster than that?
    I set mine to manual focus when playing with the family and just fired away in JPEG mode, it was plenty fast.
    Javier, aside from not wanting to process the RAW files (which I sort of understand because it is a pain if you aren't going to print them) I guess what I don't understand is why you are using hyperfocal on a DSLR but not the equivalent on a digital compact with significantly more DOF. Basically, why even focus the lens?


    When I used the G3 it had the C1 and C2 settings. I set it to manual focus and hyper focal and saved the setting on C1. Worked great.
    With the TL500 you can simply set the focus once and even when the camera turns off, the focus is still set. This works amazing at 5.2mm (24mm effective). I get at f/2.4, 3ft to infinity by setting my focus point 6ft away. No focus necessary. Lift, frame and fire, you got the shot!
     
  32. I'm still thinking about getting one of these P&S next couple weeks.
    "Leica" lens specs are found near the bottom of this Panasonic LX-5 press release:

    PANASONIC LUMIX LX5, THE ULTIMATE COMPACT HIGH-PERFORMING DIGITAL CAMERA AIMS FOR SUPERB PHOTO QUALITY, ESPECIALLY IN LOW-LIGHT ENVIRONMENTS

    Panasonic LUMIX LX5 Features New High Sensitivity CCD and F2.0 Leica Lens for Shooting Stunning Photography and Vivid High Definition Videos
    SECAUCUS, NJ (July 21, 2010) – Panasonic today announced the LUMIX DMC-LX5, the ultimate compact, high-performing digital camera offering photo enthusiasts the ideal camera for capturing professional-quality photos and High Definition (HD) video. With an ultra-bright F2.0 ultra-wide-angle 24mm LEICA DC VARIO-SUMMICRON lens, the LUMIX LX5 minimizes image distortion, resulting in stunning, true-to-life images with outstanding resolution and detail. The 24mm wide angle lens offers extraordinarily large viewing space and now the optical zoom is extended to 3.8x(90mm) making the LX5 even more versatile.
    “The Panasonic LUMIX LX-Series cameras have been extremely popular models for us with professional and enthusiast photographers, who understand and value the superb image quality such a compact, affordable digital camera can offer,” said David Briganti, Senior Product Manager, Imaging, Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company. “We expect the same enthusiasm, if not more, for the LUMIX LX5, which features improvements to the lens and processing – resulting in even better images.”
    The Panasonic LUMIX LX5 is a unique compact digital camera in that it offers superb image quality along with a super-bright lens and increased creative modes. The F2.0 lens is twice as bright as a F2.8 lens, making it easy to produce beautiful photos with a soft-focused background thanks to the shallow depth of field provided by the extra light. In addition to the newly-designed lens, the LUMIX LX5 features an image processing engine that combines technologies resulting in professional-quality photos, especially in low-light situations. Like its predecessor, the LUMIX LX5 features the highly-acclaimed 10.1-megapixel CCD, but it has an expanded dynamic range by increasing the sensitivity and the saturation.

    The newly developed Venus Engine FHD image processor enables higher-speed, higher-performance while compiling the Intelligent Resolution technology. The triple CPUs in this imaging engine dramatically speeds up processing while achieving exceptional noise reduction performance. With its high-sensitivity CCD and the brightness of the lens, minimum illumination of the LUMIX LX5 is as low as 3 lux while shooting video.
    In addition to capturing high-quality still photos, the LUMIX LX5 can record HD videos in AVCHD Lite, a format that allows almost doubling the recording time in HD quality compared with the conventional Motion JPEG format. Creative video shooting modes include Creative Movie mode, where users can set shutter speed and aperture manually to make even more impressive movies. My Color mode and Film mode are available for more extended expression not only in photography but also in videography. The LUMIX LX5 also features Dolby Digital Creator to record high quality audio and the 3.8x optical zoom is available while shooting video.
    The LUMIX LX5 has also been redesigned externally – with a thicker grip making it easier to hold and a newly-incorporated turn-and-push jog dial achieves various selection and setting more quickly. The LUMIX LX5 also features a hot shoe, which allows for the attachment of a wide-variety of accessories, such as an optional Live View Finder which helps shooting under strong daylight with high visibility or an external flash. The 1:1 square format setting is added in the aspect ratio option which can be selected with the switch at the side of the lens barrel.
    Other features of the Panasonic LUMIX LX5, include:
    • The 3.0-inch large 460,000-dot high resolution Intelligent LCD also redesigned by adopting High CRI (Color Rendering Index) backlight LED to greatly increase the color reproduction, making it more visible both in shooting and playing back images in any conditions from at dark night to under bright sunlight.
    • Battery life is extended to shoot 400 photos (CIPA) per a single charge.
    • A wide-variety of accessories, including a Live View Finder (DMW-LVF1), External Optical View Finder (DMW-VF1), Wide Conversion Lens (DMW-LWA52), Conversion Lens Adaptor (DMW-LA6), MC Protector (DMW-MC52), ND Filter (DMW-LND52), PL Filter: DMW-LPL52, External Flashes, Leather Case (DMW-CLX5) and a Battery Pack (DMW-BCJ13).
    The Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX5 will be available in late-August 2010 for a suggested retail of $499.95 and will be available in black and white models.
    ·Leica is a registered trademark of Leica Microsystems IR GmbH.
    ·The LEICA DC VARIO-SUMMICRON lenses are manufactured using measurement instruments and quality assurance systems that have been certified by Leica Camera AG based on the company's quality standards.
    ·The "AVCHD" is a high definition (HD) digital video recording / playback format jointly established by Panasonic Corporation and Sony Corporation. The "AVCHD Lite" is a subset of the "AVCHD format" for HD digital video cameras with HD video recording restricted to 720P. The new "AVCHD Lite" Logo and the "AVCHD Lite" License are restricted to devices within the AVCHD Video Camera category. Digital cameras have been added to the AVCHD Video Camera category.
    ·The "AVCHD Lite" and the "AVCHD Lite" logo are trademarks of Panasonic Corporation and Sony Corporation.
    ·AVCHD Lite motion images recorded onto an SD Memory Card or a DVD disc cannot be played on a device that does not support the AVCHD standard.
    ·Dolby and the double-D symbol are trademarks of Dolby Laboratories.
    ·HDMI, the HDMI logo and High-Definition Multimedia Interface are trademarks or registered trademarks of HDMI Licensing LLC.
    ·YouTube is a trademark of Google Inc.
    ·All other company and product names are trademarks of their respective corporations.
    ·This unit is compatible with both SD/SDHC/SDXC Memory Cards. You can only use SDHC Memory Cards on devices that are compatible with them. You cannot use SDHC Memory Cards on devices that are only compatible with SD Memory Cards. (When using an SDHC Memory Card on another device, be sure to read the operating instructions for that device.)
    ·Some accessories are not available in some countries.
    ·The use of recorded or printed materials that are protected by copyright for any purpose other than personal enjoyment is prohibited, as it would infringe upon the rights of the copyright holder.
    ·Design and specifications are subject to change without notice.
    About Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company

    Based in Secaucus, N.J., Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company (PCEC), is a Division of Panasonic Corporation of North America, the principal North American subsidiary of Panasonic Corporation (NYSE: PC) and the hub of Panasonic's U.S. marketing, sales, service and R&D operations. In its commitment to provide consumers with extensive imaging resources, Panasonic LUMIX established the Digital Photo Academy, a series of nationwide workshops designed to instruct consumers how to optimize the features on their digital cameras and produce high-quality photos.
     
  33. I have to admit, the Samsung specs are compelling.
    From what I've read Panasonic LX-5 is better than Canon G-12.
    Now I got to drill down on the Samsung, look around locally at big boxes, warehouse boxes.
    I am 110% certain my favorite local shop carries neither Panasonic or Samsung.
    They do have G-12, thats where I did my hands on
    Here's the LX-5 versus TL500 google links:
    http://www.google.com/search?source...enUS311US311&q=samsung+tl500+vs+panasonic+lx5
     
  34. The LX5 does video better than the EX1, Lindy. As for leica vs. schneider, F2 vs. F1.8...It doesn't really matter much. It's only 1/3 of a stop. One should look at the other features, ergo, etc...
     
  35. I like my P&S cameras to be small and cheap, so mine is a Canon SD100 IS. Good enough for snapshots, but not expensive enough that I'd be that upset if it met an untimely end. I think I paid $100 for it a year and a half ago and my wife is the primary user. It's been dropped a bunch so it's all nicked and scratched up but continues to work adequately!
     
  36. to be clear lindy, all it says is leica approved the lens. Doesn't say leica made or designed it, not surprisingly it supports what I said!
     
  37. Leslie, 1/3 stop is often a determining factor on these forums. We all know quite a few people us the Pentax 20mm f2.8 over the superior 21mm F3.2 for that 1/3 stop.

    Matt, I agree, but sometimes you want pocketable near SLR Quality. For the other stuff, I still have a LEICA lensed, Panasonic FX01 that is approaching 5 years of regular use! Great solid little camera, not so great IQ, but works well enough for snaps!
     
  38. Leslie, 1/3 stop is often a determining factor on these forums. We all know quite a few people us the Pentax 20mm f2.8 over the superior 21mm F3.2 for that 1/3 stop.​
    We are talking about a whole camera here, not just a lens to a dslr, Justin. It only make sense to choose the correct (ergo, features, size, lens etc...) camera for oneself. 1/3 of a stop shouldn't be the sole deal maker or breaker imo...that shouldn't be that difficult to understand. There are other differences that might be more important (for the OP/Lindy). For instance, I would probably choose the EX1 just for the swivel amoled LCD just because the way I shoot. Some would choose the LX5 just for the extra reach. Some, of course, would choose the 1/3 stop faster lens of the EX1. Others can't live without a OVF, so they would go for the G12 (or P7000). Some want tiny (or, say, auto lens cap) so they go for S90/95 or the GRD etc...
    BTW if you are into online camera test, Justin...DXO just finished the EX1 testing. It received a one point (40 to 39) advantage to the LX3.
     
  39. actually I was basing my 1/3 stop statemnt on the basis of the hair splitting nature of this debate. You are assuming I was saying 1/3 stop was an overwhelming reason. All I said was if the TL500 lens is better (and I believe it is), 1/3 of a stop should be considered as a bonus or scale tipper when comparing lenses.

    if you can point out where I said it was THE basis of a decision, I will correct it, as I didn't intend to say that. However, I don't think I stated that anywhere other than in my claim the TL500 has superior optics.
     
  40. Well...no lost, no harm, Justin. I just didn't the get the whole LX5 vs EX1 hair splitting debate. They are both top notch cameras. So you have a TL-100? Is the RAW file still like 20MB each? And what exactly is the "miniature" effect in the EX1? I saw it somewhere on te net and it looked interesting...
     
  41. Let me preface this by saying, I enjoy the challenge of working around a cameras limitations. But...
    I am saying Samsung makes a better lens than Leica "branded" lenses. And really there is no reason Samsung CANNOT make a superior lens. I'm doubtful these lenses are handmade in Germany either.​
    Ok, lets assume that Leica has nothing to do with this lens other than lens their name out. Do you really believe Leica is going to lend out their name if it does not meet their standards that are obviously extremely high? I don't think so. Leica wins here.
    Marketing is awesome, but just like the Schneider lenses Samsung and Kodak used in the past, including Pentax clones, Leica most likely didn't even design this lens. I'm sure Panasonic sends Leica a copy and says, "is this OK to put your name on." but beyond that Leica doesn't do much.​
    This is mere speculation. If anything I would guess that Leica designed and Panasonic made it to Leica's approval. Either way, Leica's finger prints are on this lens. Leica wins.
    Bottom line, I'm fairly certain your Leica lens has about as much Leica in it as your Sigma 10-20mm!!!​
    Again I disagree. My above answer fits here as well.
    As far as the head to head test on serious compacts, if your arguing that they aren't valid I'd love for you to explain why? I can look at two images and either confirm or deny that one image is sharper than the other, that one image displays better bokeh, one displays better contrast or less CA. It's not like we are comparing lines of resolution or bits of dynamic range.​
    I am far from a pixel peeper, but If we are splitting hairs as you say, then we need a test done in a controlled environment.

    The OP put up side by side test, the TL500 beat the LX5, not sure what there is to debate. Perhaps the LX5 was a bad copy. Fair enough. Other than that possibility, the TL500 has a superior lens. Considering it also beat the LX3 I'd start to question Panasonic quality control if you are making that argument both times.​
    Answered above.
    I always have a problem when reviews are comparing JPEGs. I cannot say it enough, you are getting vastly superior results from a RAW file. It is entirely possible Panasonic does a better job on JPEGs, but the fact is I only care about RAW, and to me, MOST people buying this camera are going to shoot RAW. As a matter of fact, the reason most photographers look hard at cameras like the G series, the TL500, the LX3/5 is the ability to shoot RAW.​
    Here we go. Break out the ''shoot RAW'' excuse. I would say just the opposite. Most are Jpeg shooters and would rather have an image that is good out of the box. What good is the fancy lens and sensor if you still need to spend time on the computer PP the image instead of sooting more pictures. A poor argument. Besides Ken Rockwell says Jpegs are better...On, tell me I just did not invoke the name of Ken Rockwell...
    If your ultimate goal is the very best in IQ, then you are shooting and processing RAW files. I'm not going to argue the LX5 isn't better at JPEGs, because quite frankly it's not relevant to my workflow. I can say that both the detail and noise levels in a RAW file from the TL500 are exceptional. Actually beyond my expectations of a camera that size. Very close to micro 4/3s in comparison, and as you noted, not far from DSLR. Considering the size of the camera, absolutely amazing.​
    We can agree here with the caveat of Jpeg files. For me any way.
    As far as speed, the TL500 isn't fast shot to shot in RAW (Samsung decided to use 22MB RAW files), but it's gotta be as fast a film camera with manual wind. At least a frame a second when MF is used. You can really shoot your film SLRs like the ME (without a winder) faster than that?​
    This is a good point, but it is also 2010. The biggest problem I hear is the ultra super slow auto focus speed of the samsung.
    I set mine to manual focus when playing with the family and just fired away in JPEG mode, it was plenty fast.​
    Thats just it. I am tired of manual focus. I will explain down below.
    Javier, aside from not wanting to process the RAW files (which I sort of understand because it is a pain if you aren't going to print them) I guess what I don't understand is why you are using hyperfocal on a DSLR but not the equivalent on a digital compact with significantly more DOF. Basically, why even focus the lens?​
    Ok, This is no longer the case. I was using hyperfocal / zone focusing on my Pentax DSLR's because it was the only way I could capture the exact moment in my street shooting. The Auto focus was simply not fast enough. That is why high ISO performance was such a big deal to me. I needed to shoot at between F/5.6 and F/8 to get decent DOF and pray my images where in decent focus. It was not until I went with the Nikon that I discovered true Auto focus...It is not even close. I can now shoot at F/2.8 if I want to because the AF.C is stupid fast in the D300S. This means I can shoot at ISO 200-400 most of the time. I never really Knew how slow the Pentax AF system was until I went Nikon. It is another world...So I point and shoot and that is that. I rarely miss the scene. So when I found I can do the same with the LX-5, I was in heaven..Point and shoot and I am there. Very few missed focus shots.
    The LX-5 also tracks very nice and is very fast...



    When I used the G3 it had the C1 and C2 settings. I set it to manual focus and hyper focal and saved the setting on C1. Worked great.​
    I love that I can save my settings. Does the Samsung have this? I imagine it does.
    With the TL500 you can simply set the focus once and even when the camera turns off, the focus is still set. This works amazing at 5.2mm (24mm effective). I get at f/2.4, 3ft to infinity by setting my focus point 6ft away. No focus necessary. Lift, frame and fire, you got the shot!​
    Same with the LX-5....Seems to me the LX-5 is king here ;-)
     
  42. yes, I agree, thats why I posted the LX-5 press release.
    I've read up on Panasonic G Series. I noticed previously the macro 45mm f2-ish "leica" lens for m4/3 is "made in japan". I am unaware of leica making lenses in Japan, so Panasonic makes "Leica" with Leica's blessings. As opposed to Leica making lenses in Germany or South America for Panasonic to use.
    Went to costco today, no TL500, no LX-5.
    Went to my favorite local shop today, no TL500, no LX-5, as I assumed.
    They were on my way home, so an easy stop and see and the tasty samples at costco are foolish to pass by.
    Justin Serpico [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG], Oct 20, 2010; 03:24 p.m.
    to be clear lindy, all it says is leica approved the lens. Doesn't say leica made or designed it, not surprisingly it supports what I said!
     
  43. Javier,
    I just want to be clear as a crystal.
    You are saying, there is 100% no possible way that any lens cannot be better than a Leica branded lens?
     
  44. Justin, Not saying that at all. Especially considering I know very little about such things. I am saying that I do not believe the Samsung lens is better than the Leica branded lens though. Of course this is just my opinion.
     
  45. I wonder is the Leica version of Pansonic LX-5 is any better, other than Red Dot, and 2 year warranty ?
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/736234-USA/Leica_18151_D_LUX_5_Digital_Camera.html
    Luminous Landscape reviewed, hands on, Samsung TL500 / EX-1
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sam-ex1.shtml
    Conclusion:
    " There's a lot to like about the Samsung EX-1. Build quality is exemplary – a notch above what one usually finds in this price point. The lens is as good as it gets for a camera in the price range, and indeed better than many. Ergonomics and other handling issues are par for the course, and again, better than most.
    Image quality is on a par with other cameras of this type, and the EX-1 in no way suffers by comparison with competing models from Canon or Panasonic. It's only when it comes to its primitive video capability that the EX-1 owner is let down. If video isn't important to you then not to sweat, if it is you'll likely want to look elsewhere.
    Fast lens, great lens, solid build, decent IQ, smooth handling – what more can one want from a pocket camera in this price range. Highly recommended. June 2010 "
    Heres a photonet thread of interest:
    http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00STu9
     
  46. Justin, I did mail you a few weeks ago about the TL-500, but I'm guessing you were busy or it got sucked in by your spam filter (they always do with me). After reading your posts on this camera, I'm all confused again! I had in my head that, after viewing the files, even the raws were just too 'thin', channel clipping and general overexposure... But these were 'test' shots from a review (photographyblog?) so always hard to judge.
    Are those your photos you linked on flickr? The spiral staircase is fantastic. What impresses me is the tonality, not something I thought you'd get with a camera with such a small sensor... Agh... I'd almost completely gone off the idea in honest... convinced mself it would be better waiting for an APS-C compact type... ala Fuji X100 (which isn't even pocketable). I even got a Afga Isolette 3 for my birthday, which fits in my jacket pocket, see what a mess I'm in? ;P
     
  47. p.s. one of the final concerns I found when reviewing the camera was the shot-to-shot time when in RAW, which you mention above. I wonder if Samsung will add a 'cRAW' (compressed RAW, this is all I shoot these days on my Sony) via a firmware update? Or whether that will even make much of a difference...
     
  48. I started to do a little research about these two cameras and came to this conclusion. People are ''extremely'' passionate about their Samsung or Panasonic. I think this is very good as it will keep driving these companies to build a better product. I do wish that Pentax would get into this high end point and shoot market. To be honest, since I bought the LX-5 I have not touched any DSLR or even my film cameras I love so much. As for the ''Milc'' cams, I know little to nothing about these. I keep readings that they are very slow to auto focus and not good cams for street shooting for that reason. If that is true or not, I do not know.
    As far as the Pan vs sam goes, It is obvious that both Justin and myself are very pleased with our purchases and they where the right ones for each of us. We shoot completely different things and we chose what felt would work best for us. Justin, correct me if I am wrong on this. I should of have just said I chose what I felt was best for me. :)
    At the end of the day, it is remarkable what these little sensor cams can do. Amazing.
     
  49. Javier, I quite agree. I think you can go around in circles debating two cameras like this that are so similar. Ultimately, they're both great little cameras and I think few would be disappointed with one, and happy with the other. You just pick up on the minor pros and cons that each have, and take your decision from there :)
     
  50. Here's Top 100 Point and Shoot sales at Amazon, updated hourly.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/330405011/ref=pd_ts_pg_1?ie=UTF8&pg=1
    I think if I buy a P&S for "The Wall" show it will be Panasonic LX-5, and maybe assessory finder too.
    Then again $445 plus $125 is alot of money. So I will continue to think about it, either LX-5 or nothin.
    The lesser video spec in Samsung is a deal killer for me, plus poor battery life, and I owned two Samsung Dslrs previously. I didn't plan to ever own another imaging product from Samsung. No one wanted my Samsung cloned Pentax dslrs ! I was real lucky to retrieve any value out of them in a lucky trade on a grossly undervalued & rare 1965 era Nikon lens. Trying to sell used & mint Samsungs is kinda like selling used Sony cameras, no one wants to buy them used for a decent return on investment either.
    Thanks for the Help in spending my money Javier !
    You win!
    You got a linky to B&H on your website, then I'll link my purchases thru you

    Ignoring your vast gear collection due to Panasonic LX-5 !!!!!!
    How can I want anything other than Panasonic LX-5 ??????????
    ;^)
     
  51. Trying to sell used & mint Samsungs is kinda like selling used Sony cameras, no one wants to buy them used for a decent return on investment either.​
    What Sony camera are you trying to sell? ;-). Apart from the dodgy A230/a330/a380 trio, they all sell very easily/well second hand.
     
  52. Lindy,

    I don't think anyone really buys any point and shoot with the idea it is going to get resale value.


    I expect to use mine till it breaks, hopefully, in a few years, and then move on. Quite frankly, I've been annoyed by my inability to break these things too date. They are all built well enough to last 5 years or more.



    I really cannot recall ever buying a photographic product with resale in mind, certainly I've done well reselling, but I've never actually hit the buy now button thinking, "is this a positive investment come resell time."


    But you are a collector/dealer of, coins or stamps or something? So I can definitely see how this would play into your decisions. I think though very few people buy like that. Cameras are a tool, not an investment in themselves. They are designed to either create memories, or create income via the images they produce.



    BTW, if you really want resale value, buy the Ricoh GR or GX...take a look as far back as the GRD for resale, those gen 1 cameras are still insanely expensive.
     
  53. One other thing, didn't you once believe that Sony was the company to emulate? That it had the best business plan moving forward?

    I suppose you've fallen out of favor with them these days?
     
  54. Richard,
    My review of the TL500 is going up on Mis's blog shortly. It's pretty much done after last night. It's not going to be a real technical review, no pixel peeping, more the type of review that is necessary when people CANNOT find this camera in stores.
    Yes, those are my images, and the TL500 has wonderful range.The lens combined with the sensor, and Samsungs very hands off approach to RAW processing (vs. the complaints of it's heavy handed JPEG) are wonderful.
    And yes, the RAW files on the TL500 are huge. It's an issue I address in the review. And yes, it should be firmware updatable, but we all know that these cameras last maybe a year before the sucessor and thus the firmware updates end.
    The LX3 had a long run, and fixed many issues with firmware, but it also didn't have any competition. It was sitting in the cat bird seat. Now there are a half dozen what I'd call top end, possibly even professional grade cameras in this arena, I don't expect 2 year runs anymore. I expect a 10-14month turn around time on new models.
    Also, I appologize, the photo.net based emails do go to my spam box, since I've moved away from that account anyway as a main account, I don't really even check my spam daily anymore. More like once every few days, the result is I miss stuff. In the future, feel free to contact me via the link on my blog.I do usually get back to that within a few hours.
    One last note for Javier...
    So, I did a little digging as I am finishing up the draft of my TL500 review, and of course I'm looking at the camera pretty closely, sure enough, on the lens it says not "Samsung" (as a matter of fact, no place on the lens does it say Samsung) but (and I quote from the lens) "Schneider Kreuznach"..."Varioplan 3X Zoom"
    So I did a little fact checking, and sure enough, Schneider website found HERE has a page dedicated to Samsung objektives (lenses)...it would seem, no, it is in fact, a similar little game Schneider and Leica play. Schneider does say on the site that the lenses are made to their tolerances using supplied aspheric elements. Here is the quote:
    Even the best camera is only as good as its lens system – this applies to advanced digital compact cameras just as well as semi-professional SLR cameras with high-resolution image sensors. For this reason sets
    [​IMG] Samsung uses high-performance lenses from Schneider-Kreuznach in many of their digital camera models.
    Schneider-Kreuznach guarantees optimum reproduction performance. The development of advanced zoom lenses is based on decades of experience, including the world-famous [​IMG] Variogon range.
    [​IMG] Aspheric technology now plays a crucial role in new lens designs that would have been inconceivable a few years ago, such as the ultra-compact Schneider Superzoom 2.8 – 4.0/38 – 270 mm in the [​IMG] Samsung NV7 OPS. The aspheric elements used in many Schneider lenses for Samsung, lead to significantly higher performance of compact or interchangeable lenses and enable fast, compact designs with top image quality.​
    Of course the page isn't exactly up to date, but I don't expect much has changed.
    Now, we really must split hairs, afterall, Leica makes nice lenses, but Schneider isn't what you'd consider a slouch in lens design. Again we are talking about one of the top few premium lens makers in the world. I'm sure Leica has high tolerances, but do you really think Schneider doesn't?
    I just wanted to clarify because I'm sure after reading your love story for Leica branding, some people probably thought the Samsung lens was made in some sweatshop with no tolerance guidelines, while the Leica was carefully put together with TLC and guidance from the get go.
    I will say, you are correct. The Panasonic and Samsung cameras do have a high loyalty, people do seem to passionately defend them. Of course I think they are two different cameras. The TL500 IS the digital K1000 everyone wanted, but no one would actually buy, while the LX5 is more the tech heads digital dream with endless menus and custom settings. What I do think is the TL500 puts the kaibosh on the digital K1000 dream that surfaces from time to time on these forums. It simply wouldn't sell, and Pentax is smart to realize that.
     
  55. Brand loyalty sucks butt...use what works whatever brand they might be. However cool tool they made be, they are still tools. Leica, Samsung, Sony, Ricoh or what have you...
     
  56. Justin...I will say this. You really made me laugh with this.
    I just wanted to clarify because I'm sure after reading your love story for Leica branding, some people probably thought the Samsung lens was made in some sweatshop with no tolerance guidelines, while the Leica was carefully put together with TLC and guidance from the get go.​
    As for my Love affair with Leica, that is the farthest thing from the truth. If I where a Leica kind of guy, I would have bought the leica version of the LX-5...hMMM, Now I wonder if the Leica version of this cam uses Panasonic made lenses on their version? As for ''Schneider'', the first thing that came to mind was the Dukes of Hazard. lol. I have never heard of Schneider but again that is not saying much.
    Justin, we will just have to agree to disagree. ;-)
     
  57. Lindy,
    I do not have any advertising on my blog. I would suggest using ETL tough :)
     
  58. F*** it
    I am buying the Kodak Z981
    this thread is taking my breath away too many good things to think about here but not really what I "need"
    I would love to buy one of each . TL500,LX5, Leica some of the other suggestions all look good. I saw one with a 4/3 sensor as well.
    thanks again for all the debate. it is quite entertaining
    LOL
     
  59. Ouch !
    Have you googled up "Kodak Z981 review" ?
    I see a product and I google it.
    Or I should say "Lougle" it
    ;^)
    Hot Tub Time Machine DVD was way too much fun !
     
  60. "Brand loyalty sucks butt...use what works whatever brand they might be. However cool tool they made be, they are still tools. Leica, Samsung, Sony, Ricoh or what have you..."

    Not sure anyone is talking about brand loyalty, just loyalty between 2 or 3 models of cameras. Those would be the GRD, Tl500, and LX3/5. It's a passionate user base using this sort of niche market camera.

    well I take that back, Javier is loyal to Leica (sorry Javier, I couldn't resist).
     
  61. No worries Justin. Truth be told, I have been looking at M6's and M7's
    And after looking at the cost of those, I will keep looking and looking cause that is all I will be doing. Looking. ;-)
     
  62. My brand loyalty sucks butt comment wasn't directed toward anyone in particular (especially not Javier). It was just a reminder that cameras are just tools...In the end, the photos are what matters. Often times, people forget that...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Five pix, five different cameras...2 ricohs, a nikon, a sony and the LX3...Justin, Javier or anyone care to make a guess w/o looking at the exif which is what?
     
  63. Some great images there Leslie! Are you saying these were all taken with compacts too?
     
  64. Justin said:
    And yes, the RAW files on the TL500 are huge. It's an issue I address in the review. And yes, it should be firmware updatable, but we all know that these cameras last maybe a year before the sucessor and thus the firmware updates end​
    I've honestly never owned a compact, but assumed these 'higher' models lasted a little longer. So you're saying, with the exception of th LX3 that stood alone for a long time, these sort of cameras just don't get a firmware update? That would be a great shame, as 22MB is more than a little excessive!
    BTW, how does the bracketting feature work? I'm wondering whether bracketting jpegs in high contrast scenes would work okay. I once thought the lack of electronic viewfinder attachment really let this camera down, but when it comes down to it, something like that would add a bit of bulk that would make it less pocketable, and for quick grab-shots, I guess that's not terrible important..
     
  65. Ah, just noted a pretty significant issue... I can't open the RAWs in ACR (CS4). It's pretty essential that I can open RAWs in software I like to use/familiar with :(
     
  66. Sorry, one more question! Been looking around but can't find any photos that show, nor reports. When the EX1/TL500 is turned off, when it's in your pocket, is there some sort of in-built front cap/shutter type mechanism that you see on most compacts, or is the front element totally exposed?!
     
  67. Richard,

    good point and another section that must be added to my review. However, you aren't 100% correct, the raw files can be opened in all current photoshop raw engines...such as LR3...however, for older software there is an extremely simple and space saving work around.

    download adobes free RAW to DNG converter and you can losslessly convert to either a compressed DNG or a full size DNG that ALSO stores the full size original raw file. Problem solved and goodbye 22MB raw files, DNGs take up less than 15MB. I see no reason to also store the original, as adobe should outlast us all. So you save space and also enable use of older raw engines.
     
  68. From a thread at serious compacts...Tried it today and it is ultra cool
    After all the stuff I've been reading about the LX5 and with a mini-trip coming up this weekend that I really don't want to take a multi-lens camera along on, I stopped in at my almost local camera shop this morning to take a look at the LX-5. After playing with the store model long enough to assure myself that it is, indeed, waaaaaaay more responsive than my S90 (which is wonderful in many respects) and maybe even more responsive than my EP2, which was a bit of a shock, I had to bring one of them home with me. I've shot bupkis with it so far, but have been playing around with it and figuring out how to best set it up for various types of shooting. When I got to setting it up for street shooting and thinking about how to best set it for hyperfocal shooting, keeping Don's advice in a separate thread in mind, I had my head turned around on a spindle.

    I was impressed with the S90 because you could put it in manual focus, focus on a reasonably specific distance, and consult a hyperfocal table or calculator to figure out the in-focus range for any given aperture at any given focal length. Well, the LX-5 puts that to SHAME. When you switch the LX5 to manual focus mode, and then set the lens to the focal distance you want to use and the aperture to the aperture you want to use, the manual focus setting (done with a press of the dial/switch and then using the right and left buttons next to the menu/set button) doesn't show you a focal distance - it shows you the focal RANGE for those settings. Takes needing hyperfocal tables (or knowledge) right out of the equation. At 28 or 35mm settings on the step zoom, its very easy to adjust the focus so that you get the camera to focus just exactly to infinity with the greatest focus range possible. This is just the coolest thing in the known world and got my 51 year old brain a-spinnin'!

    Don, you had talked about using the ael/afl lock to focus on a pre-determined distance in AF mode. I submit to you sir that this is an even more better solution. Go to MF mode and play with it. It might just blow your mind - it did mine. But I'm susceptible to that sort of thing. I find the MF controls a bit clunky to try to focus by eye manually, but when you're going for maximum DOF for hyperfocal shooting, this is just the coolest thing I've yet seen. I can now forget everything I knew about calculating hyperfocal distances and just let the camera's little brain do it for me.

    I can't hardly wait to go spend some time shooting with this little guy.

    -Ray
    http://www.seriouscompacts.com/f9/extremely-cool-hyperfocal-setup-lx5-revelation-me-589/#post4475

     
  69. Lindy,
    Lindy Stone , Oct 21, 2010; 08:57 p.m.
    Ouch !
    Have you googled up "Kodak Z981 review" ?
    I see a product and I google it."
    I research reviews and databases till I cannot see straight...its almost an OCD thing.
    I see nothing that surprises me for a 200 camera in the reviews.
    I currently have a Z612 that is 6MP and 35-420MM
    the Z981 is the same camera upgraded for the times with 14MP 28-676MM
    I am not worried about the function buttons as they are mostly in the same spot with the added plus of a side mounted shutter button. The Z612 serve me well as a backup for the last 3-4 years. The added MP and 28-676MM is just a plus to me...not to mention I must have paid 350+ for the Z612 at the time.
     
  70. and don't get me wrong...I 'know" the other cameras mentioned in this thread are "better" but not necessarily for what I "need". If I was going to drop the cash those other cameras are going for I would just get a DSLR.
    Not really a big fan of the pocket cameras either. My wife's Canon SD1400is that I just got her takes great pictures but the buttons and the body itself is way too small for me to deal with
    00XXGm-293229684.jpg
     
  71. Where are you seeing this camera for such an amazing price.
    You're spending $200 minimum on it best I can tell.
    For $240 you can get the Samsung HZ30W with a 15X optical zoom going from 24-360mm. 3in high res VGA screen, HD video, full manual controls. Not to mention it's more compact than the Kodak.
    here are some links:
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/1001/10011903hz35whz30w.asp
    http://www.samsung.com/us/photography/digital-cameras/EC-HZ30WZBPBUS
    Or the Panasonic ZS7 for about the same price, but with perhaps better image quality...12MP, 25mm wide angle with 12X zoom...links:
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/1001/10012605panazs7.asp
    http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/compact/zs7_tz10/index.html
    Kodak has really stopped producing quality products. It's a shame, I thought they were turning things around with innovations like that dual lens camera. But it's been almost 5 years since that point, and not a good 5 years. I remember talking about that camera on a hike with some people, and we thought Kodak was looking upward with that sort of forward innovation, but that was in the spring of 2006...almost 5 years ago!
    On the other hand, Samsung has become a favorite company in my family. Cameras, cell phones, TVs, etc, and to date everyone is happy with a well constructed quality product. While Panasonic has always had a strong history of quality products, and having had a well built Panasonic for half a decade, I can say the better built of their cameras will last a long time.
     
  72. By the way. Though I know little about how such things work, Kudos To Panasonic, Samsung and even Canon now for using a 10mp sensor. It seems to me they where more concerned with Image quality as opposed to marketing.
     
  73. Justin
    Amazon has like 4 or 5 sellers for $199.00
    Big Value is good, I have gotten a few things from them and JR is reputable. the other ones I am not so sure and anyone who has a restocking fee gets no business from me.
    I checked out the cameras you suggested and I still come back to that 4X2.7X1" camera. I cannot deal with such a little device.
    as a matter of fact...my company just sent me a digital camera that I received yesterday
    Samsung SL50
    it sucks lol
     
  74. Some great images there Leslie! Are you saying these were all taken with compacts too?​
    Thanks, but my point was that it shouldn't matter what camera(s) one uses. Use whatever works for you...be it Samsung, Pannasonic, Ricoh or Polaroid. I have ricohs, nikons, leica, nokia and a panny etc...but I can't stand fanboy mentality. In the end, no one cares what was used for a photograph except maybe camera nuts and fanboys...
     
  75. I checked out the cameras you suggested and I still come back to that 4X2.7X1" camera. I cannot deal with such a little device.​
    So you want a big camera? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I'd just carry an SLR if I was going to carry an SLR style camera. I guess that is the thing I missed from your post. I assumed you just wanted a super zoom.
    There are plenty of crap low end cameras made by everyone. The difference is Kodak no longer makes a premium product.
    I suppose I'm very happy with the Panasonic build because it's the same camera as Javier's beloved Leica (don't remember the Leica model but it was a D-Lux something). Most likely made in the same Panasonic sweat shop! (I'm just messing with you Javier). It just had ever so slightly different imaging parameters.
    Gotta say, even in 2006 it wasn't the best IQ...so much for Leica not making any sub par products ;-)
     
  76. Ned got some nice travel pix with his Red Dot:
    http://nedbunnell.blogspot.com/2009/01/after-42-yrs-new-leica-added-to-my.html
    One of the local shops stock Leica and I handled Ned's s version several months ago.
    I am almost certain it says "Made in Germany", not Japan. Panasonic makes gear in Japan and China.
    Red Dot was too small for my big hands, certain I'd drop it at somepoint.
    I'm still considering LX-5 or not.
    Sure looks sweet, yet to see one in person to see whats up.
    Canon G12 is no longer a consideration. I'll buy a Panny LX-5, or another brand new lens in next few weeks.
    So......
    Who's bought a Pentax K-5 and is using it now ?
     
  77. Lindy,

    1) all my panasonic products say made in japan, i'm sure some lower end stuff is china.

    2) unless panasonic has a german factory the leica version of the LX5 is made in Japan, like the prior versions. Its no secret Panasonic makes the electronics. Don't try to glorify the D-Lux series, as some sort of a premium LX series, its not!. It's just rebranded panasonic with Leicas own image processing.

    I think ned got the Leica version to avoid the sort of storm that resulted. Had he outright got a Pansonic, it would have looked really bad. Or he got it because he likes leicas processing better. either way, both cameras are the same.
     
  78. Justin, thanks for clearing up that point on the RAW files. It's not ideal, but atleast I have a work around. I just have a feeling they will release an updated version a few months down the line, and I will be p***ed off that I'd bought this EX1! I will wait for your review on here: http://enticingthelight.com/
    But I'm almost already settled on buying on in a week or so. It's around £305 GBP in the UK with a 4GB card.
    Could you clarify on the storage question... is there any protection to the front element when turned off/stored away?
    Thanks for your help again. I've added your blog to my bookmarks for future reference :)
     
  79. Also, I would like to add that I think Samsung have shown a small amount of ignorance with regards to the electronic viewfinder. Panasonic, Ricoh - have both been in this game/market longer, and they have more flexibility in terms of a system. The Samsung NX100 had a small clip on electronic viewfinder, a 'smart show' - the EX1 should really be compatable with this... I just know if I buy the EX1, an EX2 with compatable viewfinder will be out the week after ;-)
     
  80. I do want a super Zoom Justin just not ina Sub Compact body.
    the Z612 and the Z981 are smaller than a DSLR but nit tiny either.
    I consider my Pentax K100D a "good" camera which I take very good care of. While I just dont "throw" the Kodak around it is an everyday no thought P/S with a lot of great features.
    I "want" to have something bigger than a pack of cigarettes to shoot with...lol
    my other thought was this one
    http://www.pentaximaging.com/digital-camera/X90/
     
  81. Richard,
    it's a pinch and press fit lens cap, like on a DSLR. I cover the pros and cons in my review, suffice to say, some will hate it, some will love it. It comes with a keeper cap lanyard so it won't get lost. It's actually quite similar to the praises or complaints about the LX3/D-Lux 4 cap. DSLR shooters might not mind it annoying, compact shooters will find it annoying. I think the press cap last longer as I have had those self sealing lens covers fail, and I've seen many more fail. The issue I have with it is I rarely cap my DSLR lenses, either I use a filter as a cap, or a lens hood. Thus it's been a learning curve for me to remember to remove the cap!
    I'm sure with the competition in this segment heating up, we will see more frequent updates. It's a lot like the smart phone market, when Apple released the 3GS there wasn't a competitor to the 3G in that segment, so it could be conservative. When the LX3 came out it was the only game in town. Eventually Canon, Samsung, and Ricoh joined the party and now there are many choices. I'd expect Panasonics 2 year rollouts to be expeditited back to the usual 12 month rollout common in compacts.
     
  82. Thanks Justin - ordered one last night :). I'll have more comments to make on it, but I'll leave that for "ELT" & the official review. My first compact!
     
  83. Well let us know your thoughts. My opinion is that if your mostly shooting RAW, that it's kind of a K1000/MX type camera. basic, to the point, not a lot of nonsense to get in the way. If that works for you, I think you are gonna love it, if you want more of a tinkering gadget, I think you won't. Either way, that is what return policies are for!
     
  84. Yep, I think I'll enjoy it for sure :). Not only because it will allow a completely different 'approach' to things (as I say, never had a compact before, but often 'see' things I'd like to capture)... my A700 I can carry my A700 with a small lens on my back of course, but you can't compare it to the freedom of having something that slips into a pocket. I've always been an SLR person too, direct input is important to me, so I think the EX1 will be happy with me after I adjust to it :).
    BTW, I'm looking at the Olympus VF-1 optical viewfinder attachment. Cheap, and provides the correct aspect ratio compared to older rangefinder attachments. It would give roughly a 34mm FOV in 35mm terms. I think it would be pretty cool, for the odd occation. Set up the camera how you want, flip the screen in reverse, and then fire away with the viewfinder. Obviously, a few adjustments are required to get the focal length in the right position and the depth of field/focus correct, but I definately think it could be a fun addition :)
     
  85. I hardly ever have shots of me or my partners climbing or skiing because it's a real hassle to carry a DSLR, especially when I'm usually the least talented climber or skier in the group. Plus, I figure if I'm not going to get the IQ I want I'd rather go without a camera or toss a little compact in that I shoot maybe 10-12 shots with the whole trip.
    The OVF does intrigue me for climbing. I could see using it for fast framing on moderate winter routes like on Mount Washington. A friend brought back some great DSLR quality shots with his GX100 in horrid winter conditions and it really pushed me into finding a camera that was similar yet offered better IQ. The EX1 is as close to the GX100 as I could find, but much more useful above ISO 80! So I'll probably be looking for a cheap 24mm OVF for that sort of thing as well.
     

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