Multi exposures on a Panasonic G1

fotofundi · November 28, 2009

Can someone who owns a Panasonic G1 confirm that there is a facility for multi-exposures. The dpreview.com review lists this under the 'Record Menu' but I have been unable to find any reference to it in the Panasonic literature or in any other review. It may be a late firmware upgrade of course, but I need to know for sure before buying.

Thanks

David

cc_chang2 · November 28, 2009

If I remember correctly, on the top of the camera, there is a little tab that allow you to select single shutter release, burst, or bracket mode, during which the camera will shoot three pictures when the shutter release is pressed. The menu allows you to change the setting for the bracket mode — whether they should be in 1/2 stop, 1/3 stop, etc. Some complain that the three shots are not taken at high enough frame rate so if there is movement, it may make it difficult to make HDR images.

akira · November 28, 2009

David, if you mean the multiple exposure and not the continous shooting mode, there's no such parameter between "self-timer" and "color space" in the recording menu on G1. I went through the menu on my own G1 to post this. My one is Japanese version, but I don't think there is any difference between the Japanese and international versions in terms of this parameter.

fotofundi · November 29, 2009

Thanks Akira. That has confirmed my suspicion that this feature was left out of the final production camera. A great shame and a serious drawback for me.

CC - Multi-exposure is not the same as bracketing. It is when you can overlay one (or more) exposure over another in-camera so you end up with one frame containing a series of individual exposures. Something similar can be done post-exposure in Photoshop but the result is not what I am looking for.

yoshio · November 30, 2009

David

to my knowledge no camera supports such a feature without doing internally exactly what you would do in photoshop. Sensors as I understand it can not keep their buffer for multiple exposures, thus as I understand it the cameras essentially composite these for you presenting you with one image.

this is essentially different to film which is a simple photo chemical reaction which has no measurement of the time domain.

If my understanding is correct you would be much better off compositing post exposure in photoshop

fotofundi · November 30, 2009

Thank you again Yoshio for that explanation. I use multiple exposures for measuring subject movement and was hoping to switch to digital but am concerned that I will not get sufficient accuracy if compositing multiple individual images in Photoshop.

I assume that when done in-camera the registration of the individual images will be precise and therefore I could rely on the final composite for subsequent accurate measurements.

David

akira · November 30, 2009

David, if you are looking for a DSLR that does multiple exposures, you'd better ask at Nikon forum here in photo.net. If I remember correctly, cameras like Nikon D2X (discontinued) and D3s (just released) offers this very function. There can be other models with the function, too. There you can make sure if they would suit your need.

fotofundi · November 30, 2009

Hi Akira.

I was hoping to accomplish this without having to spend a lot of money as my film cameras do the job very successfully already, but it looks like I am destined to continue using film for this purpose - at least for the time being.

However nothing is lost as - having spent so much time looking at the possibility of changing to digital capture for this application, I realise that the G1 pretty much fulfills my needs in terms of picture quality, size, weight and price for travel photography, so I am buying one anyway.

Thanks for the help

David

yoshio · November 30, 2009

Hello David

composting in photoshop is no more or less precise than the camera ... it is after all working on the same data (particularly if you are using raw). Just like film the sensor does not move between exposure events, it simply has the counters store their data in a different file... I understood that this was exactly what the astro-photography boys use when they are stacking images to reduce noise and bring out stars further (them being constant points of light against the noise)

a reference pixel in a scene (assuming the camera or sensor does not move spatially so I suggest you avoid sensor shift technology) will be a stable reference in the file. Assuming you do not have large thermal differences on your sensor over the exposure period (which I assume you won't)

fotofundi · November 30, 2009

Yoshio,you are a mine of very useful and helpful information - yes of course, if I can arrange static reference points and locate those pixels I should be able to stack the images precisely. Why didn't I think of that?

Digital imaging is a new field for me after 60+yrs in traditional photography and I still have to get my mind working with the technology so I can figure these things out for myself!

Cheers

David

yoshio · November 30, 2009

David

you are much too kind (and lavish with your praise), it happens that I do an amount of HDR work with my G1. When I have a solid tripod and do not disturb my camera between exposures I can take 7 images with no observable shift in image during any of them (when observing at a pixel level using a raw converter such as dcraw).

I thought some more about your questions on the train and I thought you should also use a legacy manual focus lens (if you are not already) for this as the modern lenses have much too much 'slop' in them for my liking. My older Olympus OM lenses (by adaptor) are quite good in this respect.

your project sounds intruiging ... may I enquire what it is?

fotofundi · December 1, 2009

Yoshio

I still have my trusty OM2n and several lenses, so was planning to buy an adapter as I suspect the OM lenses may deliver better results than the kit zoom lens.

The project dates back to the 70's when I worked out a theory of how photographs might be used for navigation (my other passion is sailing.)

I didn't have the time to develop the idea back then, but now I am retired decided to see if it will work in practice. In the meantime we have GPS with far more accuracy than I could achieve, so this is just a bit of fun for me.

Best Wishes

David

fotofundi · December 2, 2009

Hi Yoshio

This is a bit of a long-shot, but you might know the answer to this one too.

I rarely use flash but have a Metz 40 MZ-2 with adapters to use with my OM2n and Mamiya 645 gear. The Olympus adapter is a SCA 321 and I would like to know if this will work with the G1.

The Metz website only lists the SCA3202 adapter for Olympus/Panasonic/Leica digital cameras (the G1 is not included in the list yet but I presume they have stuck to the same hot-shoe configuration with this model).

The trigger voltage with the Metz is around 4.5v so that should be quite safe but I don't know if the TTL connections are the same. At around £50 for the SCA3202, I would rather put the money towards another lens for the G1 if the SCA321 will work.

David

yoshio · December 2, 2009

David

to the best of my knowledge TTL is not supportable on the G1 (or any digital camera), there is an E-TTL sort of thing (using Canon nomenclature) but that requires flashes which I don't have (and won't purchase). I use my Metz 32 CT in Auto Flash mode (thyristor with onboard sensor) frequently, but of course one needs to set camera ISO and Av to what the flash is set to ... it is quite good that way and I also use a low price wireless trigger for convenient off camera flash.

I was burned by flash when my film based EOS flash system (some flashes, chords and junctions) proved to be not compatible with any digital offering of Canon.

never again

^-^

fotofundi · December 2, 2009

Yoshio

Well well - I live and learn. Didn't realize digital cameras don't have TTL. So it's all done from the flash unit ? - no wonder they are so expensive.

Like you, I will use the on-board thyristor - not a problem compared to having to do the sums in my head. I have a basic SCA300 somewhere that should provide the trigger contacts.

David

akira · December 2, 2009

David, recent and current Olympus flashes (FL-50, 50R, 36, 36R and 14) are fully compatible with and functional on G1. They are all listed on the compatibility chart on Panasonic's website (scroll way down): <a href="http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/dsc/connect/g1.html">http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/dsc/connect/g1.html</a> Actually I do use Olympus FL-50 with my G1 with no limitations and the TTL does work (with dedicated lenses, of course). Some of Panasonic's genuine flashes like the current DMW-FL500 are actually designed for the older 4/3 cameras like L1 or L10 but also reccomended for G1, GH1 and GF1.

So, if Metz states that SCA3202 adapter will work on Olympus/Panasonic/Leica, the L1 or L10 should be included in the cameras that are compatible, which means that your flash might work on G1. If the control voltage is 4.5V, you should be able to try without damaging the camera, although there is no guarranty.

juraj · December 2, 2009

Back to the original question; about a multi exposure on Lumix G1. It is definitely not implemented, as I just checked mine through all menu settings. However I also own Lumix LX3 and it does have a multi exposure option. It allows up to 3 exposures in a single file. Works great and it is very open to creativity in camera, rather than in Photoshop.

- Juraj

yoshio · December 2, 2009

Hello

as I mentioned it is a kind of E-TTL .. this is implimented with a TTL like system of a preflash some large number of milli seconds prior to the exposure which is used for metering (from the sensor in the case of the G1) but then a secondary flash during exposure which is not involved in metering. Given your (surmised) film experience I thought thiswould be what you intrepreted TTL as meaning.

Akira-san rightly corrects me on this issue and introduces the key issues. You need a flash with this ETTL like ability and you also need compatible lenses. That it to say that legacy lenses mounted by adaptor which can not interact with the camera (which at this stage is essentially restricted to 4/3 legacy) will not result in proper flash metering

This is not true of legacy lenses for all applications, as they do meter properly for ambient light, just not flash.

fotofundi · December 3, 2009

OK - firstly, thanks Juraj, that's helpful information. For this project I need 12 - 18 exposures per frame, so I will have to stay with film and negative scanning to keep costs down to sensible levels. I have pretty much decided to buy the G1 for travel and street photography.

Akira and Yoshio - firstly let me congratulate you both on your excellent English - I don't know your backgrounds or where you live but wish I could speak and write ANY foreign language on technical subjects as well as you do - the only one I speak even passably is Swahili and there isn't a lot of call for that in the photographic business!

I understand the E-TTL issue and the need for compatible lenses but so far have been unable to find what features the SCA 3202 adapter provides with my 40 MZ-2 on Olympus/Panasonic 4/3 cameras. I would be surprised if it were able to mimic E-TTL as the flash unit was never built to work that way. Later Metz flashguns presumably were, and the SCA 3202 is made to exploit these features. I suspect all it will do on a G1 apart from fire the flash is activate the 'Flash Ready' icon, which would make it a VERY expensive interface. I will pose the question to Metz and see what they have to say on the subject.

As a complete change in subject - do either of you know why Olympus/Panasonic didn't specify a square (17x17mm) sensor rather than the 13x17.3mm 4/3 Standard - would make it so much easier to swap between portrait and landscape - no expensive add-on drives, no awkward handling. Maybe a bit more expensive to manufacture but seems a seriously lost opportunity to me.

As always, many grateful thanks for the information and interesting discussion.

David

yoshio · December 3, 2009

I can't answer your question but with respect to the flashes, have you seen <a href="http://www.ayton.id.au/gary/photo/photo_Metz.htm">this page </a>

fotofundi · December 3, 2009

Someone else put me onto the site after I posted the last message - very useful and informative.

David

akira · December 4, 2009

David, you will get less 17x17mm sensors than 13x17.3mm sensors from the silicon wafer of the same size and thus 17x17mm sensor will cost more.

FWIW, a Panasonic engineer said in a recent interview in Japan that the sensor for GH1 is more expensive because it is larger than the 13x17.3 sensor (so, you will get less from the same size wafer), and, unlike the G1/GF1 sensors, the GH1 sensors are not sold to other companies and thus their amount of production is smaller, which raises the cost of GH1 sensors.

fotofundi · December 5, 2009

Akira, yes of course a 17x17 (289 sq.mm) would cost more, but not more than a 15.8x23.6 (372.88 sq.mm) Nikon APS-C sensor used in cameras of a similar price range. I originally wondered if there had been some other compelling reason to create a 4/3 standard, rather than a 4/4, and then realised that the LCD screen would have to be square (more expense) and that would mean a larger camera - which is what the 4/3 standard set out to avoid of course. So I have probably answered my own question.

Based on the information available the GH1 has 14 million receptors while the G1 has 13.06 million, so assuming the same receptor density , the sensor of the GH1 would have to be about 13.45 x 17.91mm if they have kept the same format ratio.

David

akira · December 5, 2009

David, the GH1 sensor is larger and has more pixels than G1 sensor in order to offer the "true" multi-format as P&S Lumix LX3 does: the 2:3 and 9:16 modes of GH1 give you more pixels AND thus wider angle-of-view horizontally than the standard 3:4 mode does, whereas G1 offers 9:16 and 2:3 modes simply by trimming the top and bottom of the 3:4 frames, and thus the horizontal pixel count remains the same, which is the very point (rather than the movie capability) on which I envy GH1! I like the (albeit slightly) lower profile of G1 thanks to the absense of the built-in microphone, though.

fotofundi · December 6, 2009

Akira Thanks for the explanation. I agree, this makes a lot of sense and I wish they had done the same with the G1. Mine is still 'on order', due to arrive with my UK source next week and hopefully with me by the week after. I tried to get the GH1 with 14>45 lens but they don't appear to offer this combo in the UK, and I didn't want to pay for the 14>140. By the way, Metz have confirmed that my 40 MZ-2 flashgun does not interface with the G1 in any way even with the SCA 3202 adapter shown in their charts. Therefore it has to be used in manual mode and just needs the single pin - and much less expensive SCA 301. David

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