more trouble, photo at school leads to disciplinary meeting

<p>Hello again, i made a thread not too long ago about police trouble. I am not doing this on purpose, I am new to photography and trying to make the most of this.</p>

<p>I am bothered, confused, upset among other things, about a letter I received. I go to stony brook university in NY. What happened what I was bored in my dorm room, so I got my camera and went to a common room and started shooting pictures of scenes outside(the parking lot and side walk). Been there for a while taking shots of smokers, and I hear some people coming around the corner so I get ready for them by focusing the camera and locking the exposure. They come around the corner and I take 2 shots of them. They see me and start yelling at me, thinking im someone else. So, not wanting to deal with 2 obnoxious people[girls] i make my way to my room. they run up the stairs and find me unlocking my door, so i go in and close the door. they start knocking, so i just open it up. they want me to delete the photos. At the time, i believed that public photography, or street photography, was legal. I believe I have done nothing wrong. So i tell them i am not going to delete it, and they threaten me by telling me that they will get the resident adviser. so he comes and asks me to delete the photos. the photos are not even good, i dont know these two people, and so i just delete them in front of the RA guy.<br>

then i hear from the resident hall director about this and i say i have done nothing wrong. they say that i was disturbing the students by taking photos, and that was against the school rules. Over the phone we talk about it, and she says I did something wrong because I was disturbing them, she said I was being creepy, and brought up me being a guy and them being women. I was angry that not only my rights were being meddled with, but I was also being called a creep and pervert by one of the faculty members of my school. So I expressed my hostility towards how she is treating me, and I get a letter a week later:</p>

<p>http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeremynative/5554765064/sizes/l/in/photostream/</p>

<p>I do not know what to say. This is such a ridiculous issue, I just want to know what you guys think about this. I have neither disrupted any activities, nor have i published or posted any photos of the two women. I forgot all about it, until I received the letter above today.</p>

<p>As with photography, a lot about life is not about legality but about perception. It is the case these days that people are suspicious by nature, women have every right to be suspicious of men they perceive to be lurking. (By your own admission you were waiting for unknown persons to round the corner so you could shoot them . . . that tends to look like lurking . . . we've all seen what it can look like.) You may have had every legal right to do what you did, and hopefully that will guide the eventual outcome, but there's nothing wrong with learning a lesson about how the real world works, regardless of legalities. You may not have felt in the least bit creepy and most people who know you probably understand that you're not a creep at all. But consider that to strangers, women, at night, you might very well have looked creepy. People on a school campus want to feel safe. These women did not feel safe and your actions, benign though they may have been, helped create that for them. You might fight this one all the way and I think you should win it. But you might also consider becoming a different kind of photographer, using all the resources that a school would have to offer that wouldn't require the kind of "creepy-looking" approach you've adopted.</p>

<p>All we know is your side of the story. The hearing is your chance to defend yourself. If you are on school property, you technically are on private property and they have the right to restrict photography. If you were on city streets and were photographing people on the school property, you are in the clear. But another problem, and the one that might have escalated the situation is that you acted suspiciously after the shot. A lot of times the behavior of the photographer makes things seem worse than they are.<br>

When the faculty member called you a creep and pervert, you should have gone to the school administration instead of confronting her. Once again we don't know what you said or did, but that is irrelevant now. Go to the hearing and defend yourself without being defensive.</p>

<p>With only your description of the way things played out, it's a little hard to say. But it feels to me like you made the classic mistake of seeming stealthy/furtive, and then confirming that feeling in others by dashing for your room. If fellow students felt harrassed by that episode, the meeting you're being told to attend is a chance to clear the air, and make it clear you weren't stalking those two girls. Because that's definitely how that sort of thing can play - and you have one chance to disarm people like that by being affable when they react badly, rather than turning and heading for the hills. <br /><br />As for the normal expectations of no privacy in public: this may not apply <em>at all</em> on school property. And certainly your own personal conduct is subject to the school's guidelines for as long as you want to be there doing business with them.</p>

<p>Hello thank you for your response. Hypothetically, not that it matters, but if someone were photographing me at night I may be suspicious as what they are doing it for, but to be scared or 'disturbed'? Also I do not like that there is gender discrimination. Because they are women, they have more rights to complain. You can see on my flickr account my other photography projects, these two incidents were highlighted by myself so I can figure out what to do better in the future, and if I am right or wrong in pursuing this.</p>

<p>Also I am not sure if Stony Brook University being a state school has anything to do with it being a public school, and therefore being a public domain.</p>

<p>I could have simply deleted the photos, and everyone just forgot about it, but instead I am fighting this so I can create awareness and progression for the future of this campus. I do not want to settle for being a creep and pervert just because I am a guy with a camera, I do not understand the generalization and association, and even with this specific situation, I was aiming outside and not in the dorm to stress the idea that I believe in privacy.</p>

<p>Jeremy, perpetually in trouble that is your motto and life. Or so it appears.</p>

<p>So, why did you run away? Dogs will only attack if you run away. Why could you not explain your pics to the girls? How come your "scenes" must always explode? There was an earlier post here by a student from Sony Brook (was that you by any coincidence?) ...</p>

<p>Think about being up front, honest, joking and safe within yourself, rather than always get bitten by the dogs that you yourself conjure by your shifty behavior.</p>

<p>You must know that I and anybody else could make myself/himself/herself be perceived as suspicious and threatening very quickly, and this you do so often. Why? To what aim?</p>

<p>Just try to communicate with your subjects or leave your confrontational style of "street" photography alone for the better of all around. My two cents.</p>

<p>Are you not embarrassed by all the adversity that follows your ill photographer's manners? You have courage to openly expose this ill mannerisms.</p>

<p>I am so sorry for you and your life's ugly lessons. Will you ever learn?</p>

<p>Yes, I have told you I made a topic earlier also :P</p>

<p>My camera is important to me, and if I were cornered by people asking to delete the photo and I refused, what would happen?</p>

<p>Also I do not believe I have to apologize for my unorthodox lifestyle. Do I have to conform to the same beliefs and strategies as you? No, I do not, so respect that. If I were doing something illegal, that is another issue, but laws were made to protect everyone, even me.</p>

<p>Seems kinda strange that people on the street photography forum are telling me not to do it. The difference you are portraying, between me and you, is that I should have stayed where I was and confronted the issue. For my belongings safety, I decided not to.</p>

<p>One thing is doing this on the streets of Barcelona or New York. Another is doing it as a student on school/university property. Read Matt's last two lines again (above). I like street photography and find it an exciting challenge, but I don't like to ever put myself in a situation that could blow up. Humor works wonders. As also does being honest, open and communicative.</p>

<p>The reason for the clash is because I am discussing things from a law perspective and a few of the posters here are discussing from a morality perspective. The issue is that some people do not like to be photographed, but I just want to let them know that in public, they can be. I do not want it to represent performance art, but that is what it is becoming.</p>

<p>The conclusion that I want is that, although one side of the table believes it is immoral to photograph someone(i do not know why still, just 'cause,') i will be able to take photos in public. If you dont want to be photographed, go in privacy. I still do not think there is an issue with the law with this situation, so I am oblivious to the problem. I guess I am becoming a type of paparazzi, but of every day people--and I am not ashamed, as there is nothing to be ashamed of. Change the laws if you want me to stop, I believe.</p>

<p>Me. Me. Me.</p>

<p>You're a student. Your job is to learn.</p>

<p>When you take a photo of someone and they ask/tell you to delete it - just delete the damn photo and move on!</p>

<p>I can't do that 8-)</p>

<p>Yea but, between me and the two girls and the RHA, this seems like an issue with opinions. If someone takes a photo of me, I may not care. If someone takes a photo of them, they may think a creepy pervert is taking their photo. Either way, being an a-hole for taking a photo isn't illegal, so there is no issue I can see :P</p>

<i>"Also I do not like that there is gender discrimination. Because they are women, they have more rights to

complain."</i><p>Women are generally weaker physically than men and therefore more vulnerable. You

certainly must know that. This is not just about legality. It's about using a little common sense.

<p>The interesting thing about all of this is that after a male photographs a woman he doesn't know, in the public, he is automatically a pervert and creep. The scary thing is that the generalization is shameless.</p>

<i>The reason for the clash is because I am discussing things from a law perspective and a few of the posters here are discussing from a morality perspective.</i><P>

If you want to get very far doing street and documentary photography, you need to start thinking about things from a pragmatic perspective--you need to behave in a way that doesn't generate suspicion or, when it does, then reduces suspicion and discomfort. You'll never win an argument with people you're photographing by citing your legal rights. For that matter, you're unlikely to ever win an argument if you let it escalate to an argument. If you don't develop a better sense of how to deal with people, you're going to keep running into trouble.

<p>Jeremy, Pack a clean change of clothing... you're about to be sent to re-education camp...</p>

<p>Quick question: from the letter you posted (which I would take down if I were you) such violations are open to interpretation. This seems to be the legal system you bought into by agreeing to live in the dorms.</p>

<p>There are a couple of books that might be worth looking into...<br>

One is The Good Soldier Schweik by Jaroslav Hasek...<br>

The other one (which you might find entertaining): Oleanna by David Mamet<br>

And finally: How To Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie</p>

<p>Good luck out there, Jeremy...</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I do not accept your way of taking pictures. You are certainly doing it wrong way, as you had experienced....<br>

I guess you were testing girls behavior and temper, and you pusshed it too far.<br>

On side note about those girls... do not marry any of them...</p>

<p><strong>Jeremy</strong>, the reactions of the "girls" and of the administration of your university are to the extreme ridiculous. They represent an attitude to others that is sick and perverted.<br /> This being said, you better change your approach to the event and your reaction to what is happening, or you will come out short.<br /> My advice:<br /> Be sure to go to the disciplinary meeting, tell them that your behavior has been totally misunderstood and that you regret having provoked it. Delete the lousy photos and move on with your studies.<br /> Next time you shoot photos prevent coming in the same situation, or you will be in real trouble.</p>

<p>We live in a world where teachers live in fear of their pupils screaming 'He touched me!" and a harmless quip in the office to an affronted female colleague can get you sacked and thereafter unemployable. Everyone is so hyped up about security, both personal and national, that they are likely to cry 'wolf' and carry complaints thru way beyond necessary just to vindicate themselves in the inevitable public eye. With some girls, just because they can. Fact of life.<br /> Jeremy, in these situations it's best not to look like a wolf.</p>

<p>You're young and it's difficult to climb down from a position of right (not sure if you have any rights in a private building) but hey, there are other more important things than a shot of a couple of tedious girls in a common room that frankly nobody is interested in.<br /> This is a battle of wills between you and the girls/college (right now they are one and the same) and even if you win a great victory it will be pyrrhic - you will simply pi$$ off your colleagues, teachers and administration. These are the people grading your final exams. So, if you want good grades and enjoy college try to make it easier on yourself and state your innocence whilst conceding that not everyone wants to be in the photos. You should be dating girls not scaring them anyway.<br>

<br /> I've spent several years working in the States and know the importance of a degree. I can't be clear enough about this ....... DON'T RISK YOUR EDUCATION OVER THIS. It will be forgotten tomorrow ...... or regretted forever.</p>

<p>Can't help thinking of Zuckerburg in the 'Social Network' being told that he "wasn't an a$$hole but was trying so hard to be"</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"I do not want it to represent performance art, but that is what it is becoming."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's the phrase that jumped out at me. When you choose an unorthodox, unconventional, confrontational or extraordinary technique to engage in public expressions of art and communication, you must expect some consequences.</p>

<p>Either you accept the risk of occasional consequences and continue to refine your approach, or, if you're uncomfortable with the reactions to your confrontational technique, give it up and adopt a more discrete approach.</p>

<p>Neither is right or wrong. But if you approach street photography like Trigger Happy TV approached street comedy, you have to be ready for some angry people.</p>

<p>Jeremy - </p>

<p>You got wrote up because an RA became involved and he had to report it to the Hall Director. Then, you "express my hostility" to the Hall Director, who is female... What in the heck did you expect? A Nobel Peace Prize perhaps?</p>

<p>Yeah - that will get you a disciplinary hearing 10 out of 10 times - then add to that your original action - which had you (yes - YOU) acted appropriately - could have been resolved with a quick conversation - you are deep weeds. </p>

<p>Having a camera and using it in a public place means that you (not the rest of the world) need to adapt a set of standards and morals - ones which you are learning painfully fast. The problem is that there is not a need to go through the pain part - since most of the lessons you're learning have already been taught and are ingrained in street photographers. Which is not to say that there aren't confrontational street photographers out there - but they have learned techniques for defusing the situation that seem to be eluding you. (Like the - Did I really just take your photo? I'm sorry I'm trying to figure out this camera - I thought it was acting funny and I just took a photo without looking to see if it works.) </p>

<p>Had you not ran - this probably could have been resolved with a quick conversation between you and the ladies. Obviously - from the side presented - they mistook you for someone else. In today's world - one doesn't know what types of BS is going on with someone else's life - and with Cyber Bullying and Facebook Harassment occurring on a daily basis - You just don't know unless you stop and ask. From what's presented - they obviously did not a) want that person near them. b) did not want that person taking photos of them and c) once you ran - instead of manning up - your BEHAVIOR became associated with something the ladies did not want to be a party to. </p>

<p>As to the legality of the photos or taking the photos - I'm not a lawyer - but you are indoors - and even though the University is "Public" - there are rules about taking photos indoors that don't apply on a public sidewalk and vice versa. It's all about expectation of privacy. On a public sidewalk - you have no expectation of privacy. If I'm doing something on a public sidewalk - it could end up anywhere. If I'm in a building - public or private - there is a different set of expectations. </p>

<p>Lots of great advice has already been given - if you chose to take it. If you do nothing else - I would suggest that you read through the Street and Documentary forum here - and learn from it. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Let us know what the disciplinary committee does with you Jeremy. "If If you dont want to be photographed, go in privacy. I still do not think there is an issue with the law with this situation, so I am oblivious to the problem. I guess I am becoming a type of paparazzi, but of every day people--and I am not ashamed, as there is nothing to be ashamed of. Change the laws if you want me to stop, I believe." If they read this particular quote of yours and see the letter you posted about the hearing, I am guessing they are going to give you the boot out of the dorm and maybe out of Stony Brook all together. Good luck and do some more research on when and where you can take photographs.</p>

<p>Jeremy - While at first glance you apparently didn't violate the letter of the offense they listed on that letter, clearly they wanted to bring you in because you (1) were taking photos of girls who don't know you, in their dorm, and (2) didn't cooperate when confronted about it.</p>

<p>A dorm is not "public" for the purposes of "you can take photos of people on public property". It's a university building and the university might have a policy on this, and it's a residence. I don't know the New York law on this, but in general the girls you took photos of would have a higher expectation of privacy in their residence than they do on a public sidewalk. You wouldn't necessarily have complete freedom to photograph somebody in a hallway in their apartment building, for example, and it would be more complicated at a university where they're likely to have a sexual harassment policy and to be on the lookout for developing problems.</p>

<p>But aside from the legalities, try to think of it from the girls' perspective. They're walking in their dorm, and some dude they don't know takes pictures of them then runs away. What would you think about that, in their situation?</p>

<p>From the limited information I have here, I think you're probably actually in the wrong and should apologize and stop shooting people you don't know without permission in the dorms.</p>

<p>Hello like I said before, I was shooting photos of the parking lot outside of the dorm, I wasn't inside the dorm taking random peoples picture inside where privacy is expected.</p>