More FX Mirrorless Cameras Announced at PhotoKina and XQD

As we know that Sony has been making FX-format, mirrorless cameras for about 5 years. Nikon announced the Z6 and Z7 in late August, and they have started shipping the Z7 just now. Canon announced the R earlier in September. A few days ago Panasonic announced the development of the S1 and S1R, both FX with 24MP and 47MP, respectively. Hence they seem to be direct competitors against the Z6 and Z7. For FX, Panasonic will use the existing Leica L mount for mirrorless, and Sigma will also get into the game with an FX-format Foveon camera. Again, Leica, Panasonic, and Sigma will all use the L mount.

 

While the Panasonic S1 and S1R are in the pre-announcement stage such that details are still missing, those two bodies will have dual XQD and SD memory card slots, similar to the Nikon D500 and D850 DSLRs, and to some degree I wish the Z6 and Z7 would have (dual XQD and SD).

 

In other words, the Panasonic S1 and S1R will be the first primarily still-cameras outside of Nikon to have an XQD slot (in addition to a couple of Sony camcorders that also use XQD). Perhaps Nikon was a bit ahead of its time to put an XQD slot in the D4 back in 2012, and the conversion to XQD/CFX has been slow, the change is finally accelerating some 6+ years since the D4.

Edited September 27, 2018 by ShunCheung

Sigma FX would be interesting as the Foveon sensors have always been smaller than other types. An FX Foveon with true 16MP (that is 16 MP of each color) would be interesting to me.

Agreed that the Panasonic cameras using XQD is interesting, Shun. I raised an eyebrow with the 47MP, but I'd just dropped a mental digit compared with the D850's 45.7MP - for a minute I thought Panasonic had rebadged the Z6 and Z7 with a different mount. :-)

 

Always nice to have options. I'm not currently in a hurry (which is good, because the Z7 is pretty much the only one shipping yet). I'm marginally more interested in the Ricoh GR III. (The ZX1 is just weird, but then since the first computer I ever used was a ZX81, the naming is going to give me more of a headache.) I note that a lot of the mirrorless cameras will actually be shipping nearer to the date of the next Photokina.

 

Sigma FX would be interesting as the Foveon sensors have always been smaller than other types. An FX Foveon with true 16MP (that is 16 MP of each color) would be interesting to me.

 

I assume you mean in MP? The SD Quattro H has a 26.7x17.9mm sensor, a little bigger than DX. They had some actual DX-sized sensors too, and then if you go back to the SD15 you get a 20.7x13.8mm sub-DX sensor. Since the sensitivity drops off a bit in the lower layers, I'm not sure how good that 16MP is going to look, but I'll be interested to see what they produce. Foveon is an interesting idea (especially to someone with sensor-shift stacking envy), but practically it's always had problems. Perhaps the next generation will improve on them.

I note that a lot of the mirrorless cameras will actually be shipping nearer to the date of the next Photokina.

Please keep in mind that the current, on-going Photokina is the last one that is held every other year, in even years, in late September.

 

Starting in 2019, Photokina will be an annual event, held in May (every year). As a matter of fact, Photokina 2019 will be from May 8 to 11, still in Cologne, Germany. In other words, the next Photokina is merely like 7+ months away.

Please keep in mind that the current, on-going Photokina is the last one that is held every other year, in even years, in late September.

 

Starting in 2019, Photokina will be an annual event, held in May (every year). As a matter of fact, Photokina 2019 will be from May 8 to 11, still in Cologne, Germany. In other words, the next Photokina is merely like 7+ months away.

 

Yes. Sorry if others weren't aware of this - many of the announcements (at least by my impression) were for cameras shipping early next year. It occurred to me, as I've said elsewhere, that Photokina 2018 came a bit early for some of the manufacturers to have hardware ready - and even Nikon and Canon seem to have mirrorless systems that are closely tied to the capabilities of their current dSLRs rather than a step forward. But then it occurred to me that "a bit later" than this Photokina is, in fact, the next Photokina. I didn't mean to imply that the current announcements were two years ahead of actual shipping. After the next Photokina the gap between events goes back up to a whole year, although as some industry commenters have said, being annual arguably makes it a bit less of a target for launching major product revisions.

I've not studied the L-mount, what's the stand-off mount/sensor distance?

 

Can Nikon Z lenses fit it? Can they fit Nikon Z mount? Loads of adaptors are being bought out to the new mirrorless cams.

 

Increased use of XQD and/or CFX can only be good for the consumer.

 

Anyone heard anything more about the possible Firmware upgrade to allow Nikon XQD slots to read CFX?

I've not studied the L-mount, what's the stand-off mount/sensor distance?

 

20mm, with a 51.6mm throat. You might adapt the lenses to fit Z mount cameras. I've not tracked this particular combination.

 

Anyone heard anything more about the possible Firmware upgrade to allow Nikon XQD slots to read CFX?

 

Only the claims the Z series would be upgradeable. I vaguely hope the D850 gets suitable firmware, if the hardware can do it - but I have a much longer list of firmware requests for the D850. (For which I'm prepared to pay, Nikon...)

Again, Leica, Panasonic, and Sigma will all use the L mount.

So Panasonic and Sigma will provide cameras cheaper than Leica and Sigma will provide the majority of the lenses for this joint venture? What does Leica get out of this - except "in-house" competition?

Phase One also use XQD in some of their cameras.

20mm, with a 51.6mm throat. You might adapt the lenses to fit Z mount cameras. I've not tracked this particular combination.

The Nikon Z mount still has the shortest flange-to-sensor distance at 16mm. In other words, if you can make a 4mm-thick adapter, technically you can mount Leica, Panasonic, and Sigma L-mount lenses onto Nikon Z mirrorless bodies. 4mm is pretty thin, though.

So Panasonic and Sigma will provide cameras cheaper than Leica and Sigma will provide the majority of the lenses for this joint venture? What does Leica get out of this - except "in-house" competition?

I would imagine that Leica by itself is having a hard time to survive. They are mainly an optics company and at least IMO, their bodies are awkward looking. You can only sell so many anniversary special editions. I don't care much about Foveon. Most likely Panasonic will be providing most of the mirrorless bodies in the L mount. Sigma will design the same set of mirrorless lenses for the L mount, Canon RF, Nikon Z, and Sony E. Maybe Leica can sell some lenses, but their lenses are just way too expensive.

Leica can still count on its brand equity on the global market. It has a long record of partnering with other companies(Minolta and Fujifilm come to mind). Still, a bit of nip and tuck and a stuck-on label often fool few beyond the brand-obsessed--the Fuji Instax Mini 90 Neo Classic and Leica Sofort being good examples. Not confident much life remains in that strategy.

Hmm, 16 megapixels is still only 16 megapixels. The Bayer interpolation is quite misunderstood and does actually give a true resolution figure very close to its stated megapixel number, but I do take issue with its totally redundant surplus of green sensors, and with how sharply cut the microfilters are. So the Sigma offering might be worth watching.

 

Shame that it was Sigma that bought out the Foveon technology. They don't exactly seem to have thrown everything into its development. Had it been Fuji, with their penchant for weird sensor configurations, I would have expected much better things by now.

 

FWIW. The cynic in me suspects that Sony's sensor supplying deal includes the catch that whatever body uses it has to have an XQD slot.

 

Sony has pushed so many daft and proprietary flash-memory formats in a bid for world-domination that it's just getting tiresome now. Maybe one day they'll strike lucky, but let's hope not! Their voracious buy-out of every soft media right going is terrifying enough, without their owning the patent on every hardware medium as well.

Edited September 28, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

Well, 50% of ILCs have Sony fabricated sensors in them and XQD is in a few per cent. Does not seem coupled unless it is that you get 20 sensors for one XQD slot.

Curiously, no Sony mirrorless camera (or DSLR) to date has an XQD slot. You would think a camera designed for sports such as the A9 would benefit greatly from XQD.

Curiously, no Sony mirrorless camera (or DSLR) to date has an XQD slot. You would think a camera designed for sports such as the A9 would benefit greatly from XQD.

 

Right, from what I understand the A9 has a good sized buffer but once it is full, it takes some 30+ seconds to write on UHS-II card, and you cannot access all the features while it is writing. I think the issue may be that the camera is so small that installing physically larger cards and card slots would necessitate making the grip bigger and with a bigger grip it would also need to be moved further from the lens mount, which then would lead to a larger camera overall. It seems their priority was to keep the camera small even though some of the lenses you'd expect to be used with that camera are large.

 

Panasonic from what I understand is planning on offering an XQD slot (along with an SD slot) in their upcoming full-frame mirrorless.

Right, from what I understand the A9 has a good sized buffer but once it is full, it takes some 30+ seconds to write on UHS-II card, and you cannot access all the features while it is writing.

 

- Oh, such hardship!

It wasn't so long ago that it took digital cameras nearly 30 seconds to write a single RAW file to a card. And before that it took at least 30 seconds to rewind and swap a film cassette every 36 exposures.

before that it took at least 30 seconds to rewind and swap a film cassette every 36 exposures.

But we were younger and have all the time in the world :-)

their bodies (Leica's) are awkward looking & their lenses are just way too expensive.

Somehow, I feel the same about Z bodies and Nikon lenses...

So Panasonic and Sigma will provide cameras cheaper than Leica and Sigma will provide the majority of the lenses for this joint venture? What does Leica get out of this - except "in-house" competition?

"Customers". I'm no economist or marketing guy but:

• An awesome lens is hard to sell with no appealing camera to take it.
  
• A camera might sell better if it is easy to get "something lens" for it.
  

Sigma lenses will make the less wealthy with between 13 - and 37K4 € at hand more likely to become Leica customers. - While Leica's camera offerings appealed to some, others insisted on more than 24 megapixels.

Everything else aside: "In-house competition" also assures customers about spending their money well and future proof, making it less likely to suddenly sit on orphan mount lenses.

Somehow, I feel the same about Z bodies and Nikon lenses...

Price wise, fortunately Nikon is nowhere near Leica’s league, not even close. The Z7 is priced slightly higher than the D850, but the Z6 is quite reasonable. The Z6 at $2000 matches the Sony R7 III.

 

I have used a Z7 briefly and its ergonomics are fine, but the camera is too small so that my right little finger falls below the grip. I prefer larger camera bodies, but the current obsession seems to be making them small.

- Oh, such hardship!

It wasn't so long ago that it took digital cameras nearly 30 seconds to write a single RAW file to a card.

 

That must have been a some time ago indeed, even with the D70 in 2004 I can't really remember waiting more than a few seconds after buffer full to be able to continue, and that basically only happened with a cheap card I had to buy when I was traveling and run out of space. I have heard that if the D1 was writing to card and you turned the power switch to off, you'd lose the rest of the images! Thinking about that, I seem to have avoided quite a few of the early hurdles of digital cameras.

 

I personally prefer that the camera should always be ready to shoot and all functions be accessible at any time. I would rather have lower specifications to avoid a situation where the camera is suddenly not responsive, than a high spec camera that is not always able to deliver. But I can see that people have different priorities. I don't often use high-speed continuous, but when I do, often it is crucial that I'm able to continue shooting for a while. For example, when I was photographing downhill sledding with a train of sleds tied to each other by using participant legs (for fun, obviously), and you would always know that the train of sleds would disintegrate eventually, but you couldn't easily predict when it would happen. There was so much snow in the air that it was hard to see and predict the moment so I used 9fps on the D3. I ran down the hill with the sled train and continued to shoot until the eventual spectacular crash. I run out of buffer in that situation and it was the only time that happened with the D3, but the resulting images were really good. I tried it in single shot too but I wasn't able to get the best expressions that way because the snow was covering faces on and off and this wasn't something I could anticipate. In newer high-speed cameras such as the D5, I haven't come even close to buffer full, which is nice, though as I said this isn't a feature I often use. What counts is that the camera is able to perform when the situation requires it. I'm not suggesting at all that the A9 wouldn't have handled it by the way. But I can see how someone might run into the buffer especially if using the signature feature of that camera, the 20 fps rate.

 

Somehow, I feel the same about Z bodies and Nikon lenses...

 

Well, the Nikon 50/1.8 S is $569.95 at B&H, the Leica 50mm f/2 Apo Summicron is $7995, and the Summilux-SL 50/1.4 for the Leica full frame mirrorless (S)L mount is $5295. I think Nikon aren't quite Leica in their pricing.

"Customers". I'm no economist or marketing guy but:

• An awesome lens is hard to sell with no appealing camera to take it.
  
• A camera might sell better if it is easy to get "something lens" for it.
  

Sigma lenses will make the less wealthy with between 13 - and 37K4 € at hand more likely to become Leica customers. - While Leica's camera offerings appealed to some, others insisted on more than 24 megapixels.

Everything else aside: "In-house competition" also assures customers about spending their money well and future proof, making it less likely to suddenly sit on orphan mount lenses.

At their prices, Leica is an extreme luxury brand. They will never sell in volume. To them, I suppose it is better to have Panasonic and Sigma to keep the L mount alive. Sigma is going to make versions of their mirrorless lenses for the Canon RL, Nikon Z and Sony E mounts anyway. Leica on its own is not a large market for L mount bodies for Sigma to bother, and how many people would put a Sigma lens on their Leica body anyway? Adding Panasonic, the pool of L mount bodies will increase greatly.

 

I am puzzled why Sigma doesn’t get out of the body business. I think I see Leica bodies more often than Sigma ones.

Sigma FX would be interesting as the Foveon sensors have always been smaller than other types. An FX Foveon with true 16MP (that is 16 MP of each color) would be interesting to me.

what foveon, go back to Merrill or keep on the Quattro route,

what foveon, go back to Merrill or keep on the Quattro route,

 

There is none that I know of. Since it has to be FX so I don't know of a foveon sensor of that size besides it seems that none of the foveon sensor has 16MP of each color either.