Moderator Note: Supportive/Positive Contributions and Constructive Criticism ONLY

I and other moderators and photo.net administration have been discussing an issue that I believe is unique to the

Leica and Rangefinder Forum, and most likely unique to the internet: that of people making comments that are

unsupportive and/or critical of others' enthusiasm with the apparent intent of egging people on or to show how

really dumb we can be about our excitement for our cameras. These sorts of remarks are often so subtle in their

design and implementation that they not only fly under the radar, they approach being evil; they are hard for

moderators to address because they (mostly) lay within the forum rules, yet they are uncomfortable and really annoying to many.

 

I don't want "You have to have a thick skin to participate here," to be a fall-back response anymore.

 

It is not my intent to stifle honest, supportive, and useful criticism. It is not my intent to weaken exciting

debates about issues or service or the industry or camera features or 20M other things.

 

I am not lobbying for this forum to become a mutual admiration society. What I want is a zone to where Leica and

rangefinder enthusiasts can freely come and show their enthusiasm and zeal for their hobby or profession without

fear of a pigeon swooping in and crapping on their keyboards. That may sound like, "I want this forum to be a mutual admiration society," but there has to be some good, friendly, middle ground here.

 

No, you don't need to own or use a Leica (or RF) to participate, but if you're not totally excited about

Leica/RF photography, if you're not in Leica Nirvana most of the time, then please keep that fact to yourself!

 

Our Leica/RF community is like a yoga class. If you want to be here or participate, you can't stand on the

sidelines like a thug and issue cat calls to the ones on the mats. You have to put on your sweats and get out

onto the floor and practice yoga.

 

You have to be respectful of those who call this place a home on the internet.

 

Thanks for reading. Please feel free to comment.

<p>Um, "most likely unique to the internet", is that supposed to be satirical?</p>

<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll</p>

<p>Well... i understand your concern, but honestly I never felt what you say.</p>

<p>About criticism, some people are more suble, some are more "sharp", but i always felt in a way one could live with it.</p>

<p>After all, there's always good that comeone pulls us - leica/RF fans - back to earth and say "hello, it's just a camera!" ;)</p>

<p>Cheers,<br>

Rui</p>

What's this all about?

<p>Tony - some of us who have been around awhile kinda know how it works and adjust accordingly. The 'unfortunates' are the new folk who come in here looking for advice either having just bought a Leica or are thinking about. The vultures are waiting and they pounce. We wince. The newbies will probably not ask another question. And pity the poor fool who actually says he really likes his new M8 or dares to say it's better than his Nikon dslr or Canon P&S. There's little room here for much enthusiasm. It use to be with some of our old friends - Jay & Al come to mind - that we'd have some pretty heated debates but they usually revolved around different lens choices or whether the M4 was the last really "good" M that Leica built. Today it seems that are those who (apparently) do not own Leica and are overly defensive about that fact. I'd like to get back to when we use to have discussions about which 50mm is best or even better about photography and how using the Leica "can" effect your photography (YES - it can). I bought my first Leica in 1966 as a teenager. I still own that M2 plus other M cameras. I keep returning to the forum to see what's going on. In my opinion light moderation might be helpful. Also, the users of the forum can be a big help by NOT responding at all to any perceived baiting or trolling. Just ignore it. Don't get sucked into it. Thanks, Tony, for your note.</p>

<p>Tony I know what you are talking about. I've not seen anything really bad for a while. But maybe I've just become street-wise about where to stay away from.</p>

<p>One think you need to watch for is ganging up. First one person says there is something bad about an image or a statement, then someone else chimes in until you have a chain of attacks, with people who think otherwise staying away.</p>

<p>I think current policy is wise in that it urges victims not to confront the bullies but to contact the administration. I've felt compelled to do that only once in the last few years.</p>

<p>The problem discussed here may be unique to our forum on photo.net (I don't get around that much) but it is certainly endemic to the Internet. Usually it's the political forums that are foul.</p>

<p>Anyway, Tony, thank you for this posting. I'll be seeing you in Kyoto is just about a week.</p>

<p ><b>Moderator's note:</b> Please do not copy and re-post comments that you think are inappropriate into a thread on the forum. If you see a problem, email a moderator; don't try to spread the negative comments further.<P>

The post you mentioned was removed as soon as I saw it, but the moderators can't monitor every thread every minute of every day.

Steve, no, I meant no satire, I was dead serious. In all my life, in all my face-to-face photography circles, I've never personally witnessed the same thing that has happened here on the internet, here, on this very forum. I'll check your wiki link, though.

<p>I don't know if anyone else feels like myself, but this forum has become so dry and stifled since disrupters have been banned, that it's become a rather dry and boring place. We're no longer feisty. That is ok, it's not my site, but what you are commenting on occurs on most of these forums, and that makes them interesting.</p>

<p>If we want, we can (and do) go to the Leica forum for generic posts. This forum seems that at one time was the most interesting on PN, most fun, even with a few insults thrown in. Jay, Al (and Monkey) made the Leica forum fun, even it were to be 7 years later that I actually used a Leica as my main camera I hung out here and posted even though I was shooting a MF Contax 645. Only because the guys were enjoying photography and their cameras</p>

<p>On the Street forum, us, our community (you only host it, remember that or you're doomed) break the rules, and PN is a richer experience for it. Sure, you can have good conversations about ver. III or IV whatever Leica lens, or IIIc or IIId, but as a community, is that what we want? Here as in real life, we're all individuals, with the same faults and qualities as in "real" life.</p>

<p>Being "evil"? You're on drugs or out of tough with reality, both, none, or writing laws in Massachusetts. Does that sentence qualify to get me TOS'd? You call some posters here "evil"? Give an example!</p>

 

<p>I hope this is the beginning of some real moderation activity in the Leica forum. It's been so poisonous here that I've generally stayed away and have given no thought to contributing financially. Maybe things are changing.</p>

<p>Good on you Tony, you are 100% right, and about time!<br>

I AM a Leica enthusiast and it seems there are nearly as many comments from those who delight in dissing the brand as there are from those who actually own and like Leica. There are too many outright rude responses to legitimate questions -- which is why I know some Leica fans have migrated elsewhere. <br>

Why bother when you will just be shot down in flames? Once the forum used to be full of courteous, knowledgeable responses, and I have made some good friends through it. People, I am afraid, will vote with their mouses.<br>

Actually, there's no point to bang on about this indefinitely. It's very simple: Just consider whether your post contributes anything useful BEFORE hitting the send key. </p>

 

A good point that was brought up with me (via email) is that it is not like the "dissers" are charging into the forum looking for trouble. I agree with this, and I also know that the forum has been relatively tame in recent times, much tamer than it has been.

 

Another good comment I received and totally agree with was, "It's not a matter of being thick skinned; it's a matter of NOT being vindictive and NOT actively trying to take offense just because you haven't agreed with someone in the past."

 

The result I am looking for, above all else, is that I want those who are really enthusiastic and excited about our topic to be able to post their thoughts and their work and their questions without fear of being trampled.

 

I think I should make it clear that this is not to say that we shouldn't have thoughtful and constructive criticism here, which I think is often vital to a useful dialog. Leica, in all its glory, is one of the most criticism-worthy cameras, after all! There is a difference between that and what this forum has suffered from time to time.

<p>When I first joined (circa 2004) I was stunned to see how vehement some of the responses were. I never understood this because at photography school I had met so many cool photographers of all ages and genders. After a couple of postings I thought about voting with my feet and leaving. But I decided to stay and weave my way thru the cr_p. I check in once in a while to see what's up. I think its gotten a little better.</p>

 

<p>I am very appreciative of the good sense and good manners Tony suggests should be the standard. The often vulgar and abrasive comments and insults so frequently seen here have nothing to do with civil discourse. I want to be able to express an honest opinion or factual information with the security of knowing that someone who may disagree will treat me in a polite manner. I support the moderators in rules of decent discourse, and kicking off quickly and permanently those who can't control their ignorance and hate, and smart attitudes. One warning, then out the door might be good, and publish the warning, and the action is giving them the boot to demonstrate what is unacceptable. Thanks.</p>

I think maybe a rearranging of the forums may be needed. I do own a Leica RF but my main interest at the moment is a range of other cameras (largely 35mm), including auto focus, auto exposure point and shoots, some viewfinder (no RF, no auto focus cameras), all too new to be in the classic camera forum. I also see M8's being discussed here instead of the digital forum. There may be others like me who are interested in some of these forumless cameras. (I also miss Frank.)

<p>

<p>FWIW, I'm a recently (~Nov 2008) joining lurker from the Canon EOS forum, and I don't see much difference in the tone between here and there -- most of the time. I do remember one thread a few months ago about the M8 that made me say “wow…ugh”, but that’s the only one. There is some one-off ugliness and vulgarity, but I personally filter it out. Perhaps I tend to not read the threads where it gets ugly.</p>

<p>Maybe it's more "bare knuckled" here, but not an order of magnitude than the EOS forum, IMHO. More feistiness is perhaps appropriate here in some cases, since this forum is de facto much of the time really not about gear but about philosophy. Rudeness, on the other hand, I agree should be kept in check – and I think that’s the point -- thanks Tony for reminding us that we're a community and should act like one -- and that needs to be said whether it happens 100 times a year or just once. We all see what happens here and have an opportunity to write that it isn't appropriate.</p>

<p>There are certainly merits to Charles’s point that a re-arranging of the forums might be due. I could see a dividing of RF in general vs. Leica M film vs. Leica R vs. Leica M8 vs. people like me who use R lenses on a Canon 5D. Personally, I like this forum as it is. In general, the group shares a certain sensibility about photography that I want to learn from. Me, my 5D, and my 10 R lenses like it here.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Sam, for a different perspective.<br>

I don't support the thought of breaking up a forum into film vs digital simply because the same rationale would apply to most of the other manufacturer forums - Nikon, EOS, Olympus, Pentax, and so on. Even Medium and Large formats, depending on the back being used.<br>

I'm not exactly sure why the Leica forum was combined with rangefinders in general. (Has Nikon or EOS been combined with SLR's in general?). But there it is, so that's fine. The point is not the badge on the camera, but the community. After all, probably just about all of us have or do practice with multiple brands of equipment anyway.</p>

<p>The rangefinder tag was added to the Leica forum because there was already discussion of newVoightlander/Bessa, Zeiss, and Contax rangefinder cameras here, as well as some talk about older Canon and Nikon RF cameras. It was a natural and reasonable grouping of interests; the name of the forum was changed to reflect that.</p>

<p>Tony you're two or three years late with this entry. And yes, the "dissers" used to enter into this space precisely with the intention of making mayhem, and they usually succeeded. Then mass deletions & evictions occurred & this place got pretty staid & harmless. Now there's no motivation for trolls to enter this forum; most of the interesting wierdos & opinionated gearheads have long since ventured elsewhere. All in the past now. Time for all of us to learn & use some new E-tricks.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Discussions about the New Bessa; Zorki's; non Leica LTM and digital bodies that use LTM and M are old topics here. The New Bessa really is not all that new; I got mine about 9 years ago!<br>

Some of the same optics marketed for the Nikon RF were marketed in LTM too. Thus asking performance of a 10.5cm F2.5; 8.5cm F2; 13.5cm F3.5 or 5cm F2 Nikkor has users with Nikon RF and Leica LTM and M users; since all frour lenses were made for both cameras.<br>

One will find a bigger body of knowledge about the performance of those 4 nikkors in the Leica forum than the Nikon Forum. In fact sometimes in the past before there was a classic forum; asking about a LTM Nikkor one got fiesty you in the WRONG forum comments. At one time in the Leica forum back in the Greenspun board; just mention of a non Leica LTM got one massive flack. Old farts with depends got to mud slinging; one having a dialog about a poor mans Noctilux say a Canon 50mm F1.2 LTM; you have broke the cults sacred "do not talk about non Leica equipment" dogma.<br>

The whole dogma of "can only talk about Leica" preaching always seemed to be oddball. My own LTM and M bodies hold non Leica and Leica lenses; thus I really do not care if an old fart gets his knickers in a wad if I mention I use a 5cm F2 LTM on my RD-1 , Zorki 3C or Leica M3. I also use non Milwaukie and Mllwaukie saw blades on my Milwaukie sawsall and wormdrive saws; I also own a J C Penney, 2 Skill; 1 Hitachi, 1 Craftsman, 1 Harbor Freight, and 2 Ridgid circular saws. I mix saws and blade vendors; I use what works.<br>

Instead of using my Leica M3 and Noctilux; I use my Zorki3C and Canon 50mm F1.2 in a rougher working environment. It does not not bother me that a Leica purist has his/her blood pressure higher with mention of what one said of a "lowly garbage" non Leica LTM lens. It bothers me that their ignorance preaches that all Russian LTM miss focus; that non Leica lenses are crap; etc etc.<br>

One had a tad of this bitchness back in 1969 when LTM was considered obsolete; but it grew alot worse as folks tended to collect lenses; than use them.<br>

The whole resursurgence of LTM came out 10 to 18 years ago; NEW LTM lenses came out. The 15mm VC lens here was bought about 9 years ago; after the Bessa R. Just mentioning that one used a rig like this on the Greenspun Leica (pre photo.net Leica board) got one attacked; one is havign dialog about a non Leica LTM lens and body<br>

The anti-Russian LTM camera attitude was so great that long ago many folks from the old Yahoo groups Ruissan boards just stayed there; if the ventured to the Leica board (now here) they got flack. One might have a great Jupiter 8 5cm F2 that tracks/focuses well on a Leica M3; Bessa R or Zorki; one still got flack since it was not a proper LTM lens; ie a Leica. I actually like how the older evil crowd has passed on; folks who inject deep hatred; canned dogma. Here I have many fine NON LEICA LTM lenses too. It is oddball how with a hobby or job ; folks worship brand names versus what works for you application. It is like if one found a great Harbor Freight blade that works 95 percent of a name brand blade; one has commited a sin by talking about it.</p>

<p>I for one am very glad this new policy has been stated up front. Some of you will remember that I used to be a frequent contributor here. I gave up about the time the M8 came out and all the lurkers came out telling us how crappy it was, and how much better X,Y and Z cameras were. Part of me agrees with Tony, that for many of them it was just a case of 'I can't afford it so I'll rain on their parade'.<br />So I've been spending my time at the L-camera user forum, though in truth it is a little dry. A bit of disagreement is healthy. Even in the days of Phil Kneen...he could be abrasive in his wording, called a spade a spade if he thought it was deserving, yet at the same time let everyone know that he had used, and still used Leica...just didn't like what it had become. Totally different than some of the crap of late.<br />Now, off topic. Got rid of all my M and SM gear 2 years ago to replace with a Digilux 2, which I'm quite happy with, especially the 25mm F1.4. But I've been itching to get back into film for the esoterics of it. So when Leica announced their reproduction Prototype II camera (limited to 1000 cameras) for well under $1000...well I just had to spring for it. For those who haven't seen it, it is the '0' camera from a few years ago, with a leather case and reproduction packaging for about $800. I'll use if for those days when the 'journey' is more important than the destination (print).<br />Anyways...with this new 'mission statement' I think I'm back.</p>

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<p>Nice to hear from you again, Bob. I agree there are times when the journey is a significant part of the experience. Sometimes you need to take I-5 straight from SF to LA - no stops, no time, no horsing around. Other times you just need to take US 1, take days to do it, smell the roses along the way, and enjoy the scenery, like winding down the Amalfi coast. When the equipment gets in the way and becomes a burden, it's time to try something different.</p>

<p>Good move.</p>

Remember the PLUG and it's rules of photography that everyone had to take to heart to be part of the in crowd?

 

The place is much friendlier than it used to be. You still get extemist, Leica Fanatics and Leica Haters and Leica Fanatic Haters.

 

But you can post a picture of your kid without being jumped all over by the trolls.

<p>Evil? That's rediculous and if you look on many other forums here on photo.net you'll find many of your statements unsupported. People snipe on all the forums. And Brian's right, for the most part no one dis's other's work, though maybe a little more critical, if positive discussion of pictures would be helpful to some of us.</p>