Minors and Shooting Sporting Events

<p>this is what I was sent from the YMCA--My question is do I legally have to remove the pictures. I offered to remove any pictures that any parents objected to being online. But he said to remove them all. I told them to give me 24hrs.<br /> "It has come to my attention that you were at our soccer games this weekend, took photos of the games and have posted them online on your website. Please remove them immediately as you did not have permission from the parents to take the photos and we did not have permission to allow you to do so. Please refrain from taking photos of our activities and or participants in the future. Failure to comply will result in a call to the police. Thank you for you cooperation.:"<br /> I know as a photography I do not need parents permission when taking there photos at a public event and I am not being told to take them down because it was a private event. It was because I did not have consent. <br /> The website is password protected as I pass out a card to the parents on the day of the game explaining what I am doing. It was just this one particular parent who was upset of me taking pictures in general.</p>

<p>Any advise on this matter would be greatly appreciated</p>

If you don't have permission , you are risking it all when dealing with minor children. Get a clue man.

For any kids leagues etc get permission or be prepared for a major hassle.

<p>Now I have parents emailing me wanting to view the pictures who did not object. In a dilemma here on what to or not to do. </p>

<p>You really need prior permission of the organization. And, esp as noted by Mark, with young kids it is even more important. <br>

If you know any of the parents perhaps you should give them a cd with all the kids photos and let them email them to the parents. </p>

<p>Get permission from the organization <strong><em>BEFORE</em></strong><em> </em>shooting the event. Most will be more than willing to work with you - if you approach them before the event and offer them a share of the profits. </p>

<p>The organization may have an exclusivity agreement with another photographer (whether they were at the event or not) or they may simply not want photos of their events posted. I've seen both situations. One organization did their team photos with a local photographer who also had inserted in their contract that they had the right to shoot up to 4 home games exclusively. Doesn't matter if they decided to show up for that game, it was theirs. Another organization that my son played for just didn't want photos of their activities (flag football) posted to the web. I talked to the head of the parks and rec dept and he stood firm on that rule - no photos on the web and no photos of any kid but mine (he had to be in the shot). Two weeks after that conversation - a parks and rec official came by ALL the games and talked to any parent with a camera. Asking why they were taking photos and reminding them that they could only take photos of their kids. </p>

<p>Even though the event is taking place on "public" property, it is not a public event. The organization has rented the park space for that weekend / time and has exclusive usage of it. It is their call if you can post photos - has nothing to do with minors, children, etc.. they own the trademarks to their logos and teams and can control the sale of photos, etc... </p>

<p>My advice - you get more flies with honey - take the photos down, call the YMCA and ask to talk to the head honcho. Explain what you are doing and offer a cut of the action. (10-30%) Don't be a jerk and start spouting off that you have rights. You do have rights...but when minor children are involved, your rights go poof pretty quick. Tell the parent who are contacting you for photos to contact the Y and ask nicely that you be allowed to post the photos behind a SECURE server. </p>

<p>In 6 plus years of sports shooting I have only been asked one time to avoid or take down a photo - and it was one photo of one kid. Reasoning - it was a custody case and mom didn't want dad to get a photo or to see a photo. I always check with the league BEFORE posting photos - and if someone says no - I respect that decision, however flawed I may feel it is. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Which country are you in?<em> It matters...</em></p>

<p>I'm not in agreement with much of the above. Sounds to me like you are dealing with a jackass who is playing Philadelphia lawyer on you. The isue shouldn't be whether you took pictures or not, but posting them publically and/or using them commercially.</p>

<p>I suspect that you are not one of hte parents??? Are you doing this to sell the photos, or what?</p>

<p>I have for years taken photos at kiddie sports for years (as a parent) without one negative comment. Often I'm asked if I'm the "team photographer" and if they can get some shots from me. I've read much more about the "kiddie photography" hysteria on this forum then I have ever experienced in real life... and I have even had the opportunity to photograph some celebrity kids who were brought to the game with both a driver and a body guard.</p>

<p>I'm not against "checking with the league" but make sure whoever you talk to really has the authority to allow or deny your rights.</p>

<p>p.s. David's comment about getting more with honey than vinegar is right-on. But there is also the notion that avoiding the discussion might get you even more.</p>

<p>p.s. My test of whether someone has the authority to demand something is to ask them to put in writing. If they are not able/willing to do that, or not really willing to call the cops... then they are likely not really empowered and are just making idle threats.</p>

<p>Brian -<br>

My guess is that he is not a parent, but just a photographer who does game photos.</p>

<p>As for the putting it in written - I made that leap already because of the wording on his post - "this is what I was sent by the YMCA". So the person at the Y has put in writing that they will call the police if the photos are not removed... The Y may hope by having the cops show up at his house or business it will be enough to scare him.</p>

<p>Avoiding the discussion seems to be what got him to this place - if he had held a discussion with the Y or sponsor - he may have gotten a similar response or he may have been welcomed as a potential fund raiser. </p>

<p>I was shooting a tournament this past weekend with 2 other photographers - both working for me - when any of us were approached by a parent we handed out cards and said we are with the tournament. One parent questioned why we were taking photos of all the trophy presentations - my response was "because that is what the tourney organizer wants." She walked away satisfied with the answer.<br>

Dave</p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I'd be interested in hearing from a real lawyer, but it is my understanding that (in the US at least) a private event occuring in a public location is still public if it is observable. I'm not convinced that photography would specifcally be controllable by the private event host unless they made some effort so shield it from public view. Even posted signs saying "Photography Of YMCA Events Prohibited" might be without authority.</p>

<p>You are right about the "what I was sent" in the OP... I didn't give that as much credibility as I should have. It would be interesting to know if it came from a Y official, on Y letterhead, or from a Y email addy... or if it was just someone with a gmail account. Again... I'd question the authority if it wasn't from a Y lawyer and on some form of official Y corespondence.</p>

<p>I'm not the kid of guy who likes questioning authority or causing trouble, but there are too many people out there with big mouths asserting rights they don't really have.</p>

<p>Dang... can't spell. I meant "I'm not the KIND of guy..."</p>

<p>Keith Reeder-- I am in the USA.<br>

Brain S.—No I am not one of the parents, I am there to sell photos of the children to the parents. And what I posted was from the Director of the YMCA. I even called him as well. I have spoken with the police and they said it would be a civil matter not a criminal case an they would be able to do nothing. I already knew the police could do nothing already when he sent me the email, I guess thinking I would run off. I just don’t want a civil matter to become an issue and if it does what grounds do I have to stand on. And I even went as far as to tell him that I would remove pictures of anyone who objected but he insisted that I remove them all since I did not get prior authorization. It was in an open area on church grounds and there was no signs posted stating that no outside photography prohibited. As I stated early I pass out my card with the code to get to the site, no one objected, some did ask who I was as I always get this. I explained and they say oh and I continue on.<br>

The photos are not just posted for anyone to see unless they have the code. </p>

<p>"...no one objected, some did ask who I was as I always get this. I explained and they say oh and I continue on." That is exactly what happens at the park where my kids play baseball!</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I just don’t want a civil matter to become an issue <em>and if it does <strong>what grounds do I have to stand on</strong></em>.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Then, I suggest you nail the answer to that question with a visit to a reputable, knowledgeable and experienced Lawyer in these matters.</p>

<p>As well as asking about the law; I would also ask what the typical procedure would entail should matters escalate, as it occurs to me that the head honcho of an institution, with a bee in his bonnet has a lot of resources available to attempt to squish bees – even if the bees are in the right. </p>

<p>On a side point, I agree the world seems to have gone a little crazy with “bush lawyers” (which is what we refer to them as, down here), I was questioned and by a passer who told me I couldn’t take photos at this waterfront public park and they were also threatening to call the police to remove me . . . <a href="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/9199157-lg.jpg">this is the subject of the photos.</a></p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>Yes William, I am trying to wait on that response now from a few lawyers that I have called. Thank You!</p>

<p>All, thank you for your responses, they have all been a great help. Again thank you!</p>

<p>Aron </p>

<p>I for one would be interested to know the outcome.<br>

Good Luck</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>"the head honcho of an institution, with a bee in his bonnet has a lot of resources available to attempt to squish bees"</p>

<p>Who knows, but I doubt it.</p>

<p>It would not surprise me if the Y-guy is assuming that he can extend the camera policy they have in effect WITHIN their own facilities to any Y-related activity (apparently they have had concerns/incidents involving voyeurism using cameras in locker rooms). IDK if that is really possible or not.</p>

<p>From several different Y web sites:</p>

<p align="left">Cell Phone, Camera and Video Policy</p>

<p align="left">For the comfort and safety of our YMCA patrons and guests, cell phones, cameras and/or</p>

<p align="left">video use is permitted in limited areas only. Taking photos or videos of others without</p>

<p align="left">their permission is prohibited on YMCA property.</p>

<p align="left">Please respect the following restrictions:</p>

<p align="left">Permitted use: Gymnasium, lobby, pool deck, public hallways and sports fields.</p>

<p align="left">Prohibited use: Group fitness studios, wellness floor, locker rooms, indoor</p>

<p align="left">walking track and restrooms.</p>

<p align="left">If you have any questions, please see your branch leadership for assistance.<br>

Thanks for your cooperation!</p>

<h3 >Photo Policy</h3>

<p>Kankakee Area YMCA policy regarding the use of photographic or video equipment states that "photography of any kind within the YMCA or site will not be permitted without prior consent. In instances in which permission is granted, the images must exclude any individual(s) who have not previously signed a YMCA Photo Release Form. Failure to support this policy may result in the confiscation of the photographic/video image and the involvement of the Kankakee Police Department."</p>

<h3 >Camera and Cell Phone Usage Guidelines</h3>

<p>The YMCA believes in protecting the privacy and well-being of all members and guests. The rising use of camera cell phones provides a new challenge to ensuring the privacy of our patrons. We ask that:</p>

<ul>

<li>Members and guests do not use the camera functions on these cell phones while in the YMCA. Cell phones are not allowed in any YMCA locker room or restroom.</li>

<li>Members and guests should immediately report any concerns related to others using camera cell phones.</li>

</ul>

<p>... but some Y's take a different tact:</p>

<p>Photo Policy - The Y reserves the right to take photos of adults and children participating in Y programs to be used in promotional media. If you do not wish to be included please inform the photographer. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Failure to support this policy may result in the confiscation of the photographic/video image and the involvement of the Kankakee Police Department."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>They have no authority to confiscate anything but are as free to call the police as anyone else.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"the head honcho of an institution, with a bee in his bonnet has a lot of resources available to attempt to squish bees"<br>

Who knows, but I doubt it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I don’t know, that’s why I wrote “It occurs to me”<br>

. . . but whether it is so or not so: it is prudent that the OP gets an handle on what any legal procedures might be, should any such procedures be initiated by the institution – and that was the point of the comment.</p>

<p>WW </p>

 

<p>Yes, Steve... the confiscation part is crazy. Unfortunately it casts doubt on the quality of the Y's policy makers. I think that is conversion, which is an illegal act.</p>