MF SLR on a budget?

<p>I have been shooting MF for a few years now, on several TLRs (my

current is a Yashica-Mat (not 124)), and on borrowed SLRs (500C/M,

RB67). I also shoot 35mm (infrequently with Canon RF) and LF (more

frequently and with a monster Calumet 4x5 monorail + 300mm barrel +

packard shutter).

 

<p>If I had my druthers I'd shoot LF all the time, but I'm moving to

a small NYC apartment and I simply will not have the ability to cart

around my LF rig (car + NYC = bad).

 

<p>So I am left to shoot MF for my fine-art photography. I am ok with

my TLR, but I've never felt comfortable shooting them, both

ergonomically (the controls layout is straange), technically

(parralax = bad; 3.5 lenses are just too damn dark for shooting in

less than broad daylight), and artistically (portrait subjects don't

take a TLR very seriously).

 

<p>So now I'm looking at my options for a MF SLR. Things I'm thinking

about (all used):

<ul>

<li>older 500C

<li>older 2000 series

<li>RB

<li>SQ

<li>Rollei (ok just kidding on that one)

</ul>

 

<p>What is the liklihood of my finding a working outfit complete

(body, 120 back, 80 lens, w/l finder)) for sub $800? I know finding

MF SLR's cheap is no easy task, and I'm prepared to wait for the

right deal to come along, provided I a) know what I'm looking for and

b) know that such deals exist. I really don't want to go the 645

route (this is a compromise from 4x5, after all) for quality reasons.

6x6 or 6x7 is what I'm looking for. I would prefer something

handholdable (RB is *pushing* it, weight-wise) and that won't cost me

three times my budget in repair costs. Beyond that, I have very few

requirements-- a basic all-mechanical camera will do; I have

lightmeters and such already.

 

<p><i>(yes I searched through the archives for this, but there are

about 50 million "which MF camera" threads and I didn't have time to

go throught ALL of them :) )

</i>

<p>Thanks for your input,<br>

--Josh Wand

You could probably get a 500c in pretty nice condition with maybe a SS# and drivers license #'s etched in a few places (if that doesn't bother you) on eBay for AROUND $800. But plan on an overhaul. good luck!

For that price, your going to get a worn out, ugly, beat up, barely working complete 6X6 or 6X7 camera. I think you just ruled out your only viable options by sticking your nose up at 645. 90% of the 6X6 shooters enlarge that portion of the neg anyway. With the current crop of films, I have made super sharp, saturated 24 X 30's from Pentax 645 negs. The 645 format can give results as good as 6X6, and 6X7, because you don't have as much of a vibration problem with the shutter, or film flatness problems. Lastly, the depth of field per angle of view is better with 645, adding to the already easy hand holding use of those cameras. Take a second look at 645 if your on a budget.

The reason I shoot MF and LF is not about sharpness or grain--it's about tonal scale. I'm already compromising from 4x5, so I really do want to set a limit at 6x6, which would not be enough were it not for the square format of which I am very fond.

 

The $800 figure was perhaps a bit arbitrary; I *can* be persuaded to spend more (say $1200?) to get to a place where you're not all laughing at me.

 

The other possibility is if anyone knows of places or methods (KEH's BGN merch, for example) where bargains can be had in this area on occasion?

 

(The market on eBay is ridiculously inflated as of late--too many joe-averages with large pocketbooks (and egos) and not enough bargain-hunting sense.)

eBay really isn't that bad... I got a 500c/m with T* 80mm and a12 all in mint (like new) condition for $1450. I wouldn't call that too inflated. (I thought it was a good deal, am I warped?) If you hunt, you can probably find something close. Save and get what you really want, or you'll kick yourself later.

Have you considered a used folding 6x9 or 4x5 camera? I haven't used one myself, but have always been intrigued by them. You could use 4x5 sheet film when desired (presuming you choose a larger 4x5 model, as opposed to a 6x9) and roll film with an accessory back. You might be able to pick up a basic outfit in your price range.

Josh

 

I'm certain that you can find a very nice,almost perfect Hasselblad

500CM for the $800, but a lens and film back would be extra. Don't

get suckered into buying a Rollei SLX. Nothing but grief and

unreliability. I use a H'blad also, but no-one has ever disrespected

my Rolleiflex 2.8F or 3.5E2 or MX-EVS. Don't let a camera give you

an inferiority complex.

 

Jerry

Andy: that's *closer* to what I'd consider spending (as compared to the prices I've been seeing browsing these past few weeks).

 

KL: I'd still run into space issues. Once you start talking about LF again you're talking about slow lenses (and therefore tripods, which I can't carry around on the subway). And again, you run into respectability issues.

 

Gerald: Of course they will respect your pricey Rolleis! Rolleis are *serious cameras* and look and act the part. I don't have an inferiority complex--I have observed REAL differences in the way a portrait subject reacts to a) my Yashica TLR ("how OLD is that camera?") b) a rented Hassy ("Wow that's a SERIOUS camera") and c) my monstrous LF rig ("that thing is scary"). The subject's reaction/interaction to the camera and to the photographer is very important to my work; thus equipment considerations can no longer be consigned to the "penis envy" category.

 

Any thoughts on relative quality/availability of the older Bronica (SQ) and Mamiya (RB) options? I saw a SQ-Am outfit used for ~$750...

I had an RB system for 15 years, loved it. In a fit of stupidity I sold it and bought into the Pentax67. The Mamiya is easier to handhold (even with the 5lb solid glass prism), and the mirror slap and shutter shake aren't even in the same league (if you are using a light tripod with the Pentax you can actually see it jump when you release the shutter. I had the 50mm, 90mm, 140mm and 250mm lenses - all were excellent except the 140 (I may have had a dog but I bought it overseas for $230 new, so at least I made a good profit when I sold it). I'm buying my medium and large format from Robert White in the U.K. these days - the prices are half what they are in the U.S.. Their used prices should be commensurate - if you're going to buy Mamiya or Bronica check with them first.

 

http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/index.htm

I recently bought a very clean SQ-Ai outfit -- 80mm PS lens, 120 back and waist-level finder -- for $1055 on eBay and while this was an overseas transaction, which made me somewhat nervous, everything actually went quite smoothly. This strikes me as being a good-to-very good deal and as SQ and SQ-A systems are selling for only a few hundred less, I decided it was worth paying a bit extra to own a current model camera for a change.

 

I've since acquired a 50mm S lens, 150mm PS lens, MF finder and a compendium lens hood, bringing my total investment in this system to approx. $2300. So far, I've been quite happy with the results (although I am starting to miss my Galvin's movements) and frankly, there's little else I'd want to add to it at this point.

 

Bottom-line, I think you should be able to find a clean SQ or SQ-A system for less than $800 fairly easily and with some effort/luck, maybe even a cosmetically challenged (but mechanically sound) SQ-Ai with a PS lens for not too much more.

if you're prepared to shop around, consider finding a kiev88 - a Russian clone of a Hasselblad. Alternativly a good 120 film folding camera is an excellent MF camera, especially a Ziess Ikon, on occasions I use a Welmy 'six' in place of a compact 35mm camera.

KEH is listing an SQ kit (SQ w/ w/l, 80 F2.8 S, 120 back) for $569 -- it's one of their BGN models, which, depending on your luck, are either really EX+ or just have a lot of brassing. It's a 50/50 chance, generally speaking. I've never had a mechanical or glass problem with BGN stuff.

 

This looks like the kind of good deal I've been looking for... anything in particular I should know about the SQ cameras before I plunge?

 

--Josh

While the KEH SQ outfit sounds like a pretty good deal, be aware that the SQ doesn't have a mirror lock-up switch; only the SQ-A and SQ-Ai have these. With my SQ-Ai, I've found that with shutter speeds between 1/4 and 1/30 of a second -- I probably shoot 80% of my images in this range -- locking up the mirror noticeably improves sharpness and resolution.

 

Also, if you intend to add an auto-exposure finder at a later date, be aware that they won't work on the SQ -- just the SQ-A and SQ-Ai -- as the SQ has only six contact pins instead of the ten pins required by the auto finders. Lastly, be aware that the S-series lenses have only full-stop indents on the aperture ring (the later PS-series lenses have half-stop indents) and with the unmetered waist-level finder, you get only full-stop shutter speed adjustments, with no intermediate settings. Although I use a hand-held meter, I ended up having to buy the (now discontinued) metered MF chimney finder to get around this as I often bracket my exposures. (Although it's a little bulky to carry around, I do find it handy since the diopter adjustment allows me to focus without wearing my glasses, which is a lot more comfortable.)

I also suggest that you could get much better value fron buying in the UK where MF equipment (new or used) is a lot less expensive than in the US. Of course you'd need to consider what might happen if there is a technical problem. Most reputable UK used dealers will offer a warranty of some description but it might not be very convenient to use it. I can give contact details for the mainstream used MF dealers if you e-mail.

 

On the Bronica S lenses you can achieve an approximation to half stop adjustment by setting the lens between two indents because the lens stops down continuously as you turn the aperture ring. Equally, even with a metering prism fitted you would still only get full stop shutter speed adjustment if you use it on manual, and this applies right up to the SQAi, so unless you're prepared to use the camera on automatic this isn't a way around the "whole stop increment" issue anyway. So the later PS lenses are a little more convenient to use as well as supposedly being a little better.

 

If you buy a Bronica and you want to handhold some form of prism and a speedgrip will help a lot. Personally I still can't handhold this combination reliably below 1/60 and indeed mirror lock-up becomes advisable below this point anyway. If I need to handhold at slower speeds then I use a Mamiya 7 rangefinder.

Why is it that MF stuff is cheaper in the UK? Just curious.... Please do send the dealer info along; I'd appreciate that.

 

As far as meter prisms, half-stop increments and such, I don't anticipate this being a real issue-- 90% of my shooting is under controlled lighting conditions so I will always use my incident meter.

 

Re: handholding-- I've had little problem handholding a hassy with w/l at, 1/8, 1/15 sec times-- I have a very steady hand. Is the vibration on the Bronica's really that much stronger?

Wow, just a quick browse of some UK shops shows that it is indeed cheaper! I found a TON of used Bronica, Hassy... complete outfits for 550-650 UKP ($824-974 USD)! I might actually find that cheap 500CM outfit (with T* glass!) I really wanted!

I just visited the Bronica website and contrary to what I was told by a local dealer recently, the MF finder is still shown to be available. As for full-stop shutter speeds, I don't know about the other SQ series finders but the MF chimney finder definitely has detents half way between the various speeds. Given the limited DOF available, I prefer to bracket my exposures by changing the shutter speed instead of the aperture.

 

That said, it appears neither of these issues will matter much to Josh given the type of shooting he intends to do so it's really academic. As for MF equipment prices being cheaper in the UK than in the US, I concur although I do wonder if getting factory service will be a problem should I ever need it. Here's hoping it won't be! :^)

<p>OK, now given that both 'Blad and Bronica kits can be had for around $900, which should I buy?

 

<p>Points for 'Blad:

<ul>

<li>Will only increase in value (good investment)

<li>Rental market (availability of lenses, accessories for hire)

<li>T* glass

<li>Subjects have been *known* to take this camera seriously

</ul>

<p>Points for Bronica:

<ul>

<li>Reliability (fewer headaches)

<li>Cost/availability of lenses/accessories on used market

<li>can be got cheaper (KEH BGN)

</ul>

<p>What are other peoples' take on the situation?

I would say go with the Bronica. I had a Hasselblad 501CM and I wasn't really happy with it. First, I had some problems and Hasselblad USA whas less then helpfull in getting fixed, and second....I just didn't care for the camera. Its a wonderfully built machine, but it is quirky and the lenses are very expensive. I have since switched over to the Bronica ETRSi and I love it. Its a good, reliable camera that offers more features then the Blad for less money. The lenses are much cheaper and just as good. I was never very happy with my Blad, and I think the lenses are overpriced. I love my Bronica, the lenses are very reasonable, and the results are wonderfull.

Tripod-free on the streets of NY with a 6x6 SLR?

 

That's why MF rangefinders were invented. Used Fuji RFs go in the $800-1000 range for the 6x7 & 6x9 models. (I'd go 6x9 and tell people it was 35mm.) New they're not much more.

 

The overseas market has used Mamiya 6 cameras pretty cheap. I use a Leica M3 sometimes, and I think the Mamiya has a better RF. Sure you have to point the meter at the ground to read it reliably, but it's built in, and if you can trust it it does AE!

 

I, too, find TLRs to be a bit of a pain to really use, but I've been to the dark side and my 'Blad experiences aren't really to die for. With the prices of MF extension tubes, why not just figure you'll have to LF or miniature format the closeups and go?

 

Just my opinion, but for your budget the SLR love-fest seemed overpowering...

Who said anything about shooting on the *streets* of NY? I have my Canonet for that. Most of what I do is studio and location portraiture. The weight issue to which I alluded was more about lugging a 40lb suitcase full of LF gear, plus my 20lb wooden tripod, all on the subway and the streets without a car.

 

I do like rangefinders for certain kinds of subjects, but not the same things I'd use a MF SLR for. Anyways, I can't imagine finding a Mamiya 6 used, complete, for sub $1000.

After I purchased my Rollei Model I 6006 with 80mm HFT, I practically fainted when I looked up the cost of extra lenses. I eventually did get a 150mm Rolleigon for $900, but for a nice wide 50 or a 250 I'll need to don a ski mask and visit my 7-11. Sometimes the bodies are cheap, but the lenses are, whoa baby. This is where the Pentax 645 excels. Lense are cheaper but really nice.

 

BTW, you can actually find one of these Rollei cameras for $1200 or less as nobody really wants them. The model II is much more admired. The camera is acutally nice what with motor drive, metering system and back changeability. The lens, an 80mm HFT on mine has 1/3 click stops for psuedo exposure comp.

 

Just an idea, but you can get a Century Graphic 6x9 (very light) with lens for $300-$350 and a 6x7/6x9 roll film back for $250/$275. I love mine. If you shoot sheet film, B&W is available for B&H or cut your own for color.

 

BTW, a Mamiya C330 was for sale on Photonet for a decent price by someone looking to upgrade to the Pentax 645N.

 

Another option is a Zeiss Ikon 532/16 6x6 with fixed 80mm lens for about $300 or less. Very compact and great lens.

I personally think a Mamiya TLR outfit is one of the best tools you can get at any price for on-location portraiture. With no image blackout, you can see if someone blinked, stuck out their tongue or whatever and re-shoot the picture right then and there, and it certainly fits your budget. The leaf shutters sync at all speeds for doing fill flash in bright sunlight. Mamiya 6 also has these advantages, but has a narrower selection of lenses, and I don't think the 150mm lens for that camera focuses close enough to do a head shot.

<p>

I don't understand the comment about rejecting 645 in favor of 6x6 or 6x7 on the basis of quality. Are you wanting to do square compositions? If not, once you crop 6x6 to a rectangle, you would be hard pressed to see a difference in quality. Even comparing 645 and 6x7, the difference is minimal compared to medium format vs. 35mm or large format vs. medium format. You only have to enlarge a 645 negative about 30% more than a 6x7 one to get the same size enlargement.

<p>

I personally think the biggest difference is that with 6x6 and 6x7 you retain freedom to crop in the darkroom or in photoshop while retaining a quality image, whereas with 645 you'll want to print close to full frame.

<p>

I think 6x6 has the major advantage that you have the freedom to crop back to a 4:5 aspect ratio rectangle without any reduction on size of the negative to be used for a 4:5 aspect ratio print, so you effectively get cropping freedom without quality loss (for 4:5 ratio prints). In addition, you don't have to decide on vertical vs. horizontal format until after you have proofs to look at. This is another advantage for working on-location where things might be happening quickly.

<p>

So, the above is probably why 6x6 is the most popular format for on-location portraiture, weddings, etc. and 6x7 and 4x5 are probably the most popular formats for studio portraiture. Since you already have a large format camera, I would think 6x6 would be the better companion system.

Joseph:

 

I personally find the TLR's awkward to work with ergonomically. I've also run into parallax trouble enough times to make me swear them off.

 

Re: 645: I never crop my negatives. Cropping has the effect of making me get lazy in my composition. So I have made it my habit to always print the full frame, as an incentive for me to be always conciously thinking about the composition. And, as I have said before, it's not about grain, it's about having an extended tonal scale. I am producing fine art prints, not wedding albums. Hence 6x6 (I do like the square) or 6x7 (not 4x5 but close).

"And, as I have said before, it's not about grain, it's about having an extended tonal scale."

 

Josh, besides grain, what factor do you feel determines tonal scale? To me, they are one and the same. Please elaborate.