MF on a ~$500 budget?

After many years of shooting 35mm, I’m interested in giving MF a try, but I don’t have a huge budget.

 

Most of what I shoot is landscape or other static subjects, but usually while out on long walks, so being able to shoot handheld is a priority, although I’ll brace against whatever is handy when I can.

 

I’ve been looking at a few inexpensive options:

 

Fuji G/GL690 -

pro: by all accounts well made with excellent optics, big 6x9 negative

con: old and generally heavily used, parts & repair difficult to find and expensive

 

Kiev 60 -

pro: readily available, cheap, and can be had pre-tuned from Arax, Hartblei, etc,; good optics also availble

con: reputedly hit-or-miss build quality and reliability even when tuned

 

Bronica SQ -

pro: a better camera than the Kiev, better parts/service availability than the Fuji (I think)

con: may not actually be practical for handheld shooting

 

No worries about developing or printing - I’ll be shooting B&W and developing my own and have ready access to a darkroom equipped to print either size neg.

 

What I’m really wondering is if either of these is worth sinking ~$500 in to, or if I need to wait & save until I can afford something a bit better?

 

As always, I know that gear is not my limiting factor :) This is a hobby for me, and I’d just like to see what I can do with a bigger negative - possibly 20x24 enlargements?

I am shooting digital mostly now with plans to reactivate my LF (5x7 and 4x10) later. In 1978/9 I handled my first Bronica ETR, loved it but never got one. Fast forward to today. Building a Bronica ETR outfit based on the ETRC, 120 insert, 2 220 inserts, plain prism, 75 and 250 lenses all for about $100 on Ebay. Had an extensive GS-1 outfit years ago and can testify to the reliability of the brand. Hey, what can go wrong with an electronically controlled Seiko shutter, never had one fail.

I've used a few over the years, some I liked better than others. All were well under $500. For a MF SLR I liked the Bronica ETRSi...preferred it over the ETRS, which I sold to a student of mine. I've also tried a Rolleiflex which was over your budget, and well within your budget: a Yashicamat-124, and a Ricoh Diacord. In the end I kept the Diacord, and although not often used these days, it was my favorite among the 3 - I think I paid about $100 for the camera and mods: I replaced the viewing screen with one from Rick Oleson as well as the magnifier. Most of the TLRs I looked at which had meters, the meters were either inaccurate or not working . If I was planning to do a lot of close-up work I'd have found a Mamiya C330, but it is heavier and considerably larger than the other TLRs.

 

Good, cheap, handholdable, yet reasonably portable is a tough combination to find. Plus there's the variable of your personal shooting style to consider: rectangular vs square format, if square do you shoot it literally as square or do you go "old school" and use it as a flexible base to seelct a crop for printing?

 

Since time immemorial, the go-to choice for portability + handholdability is a TLR. Leaf shutter + no flapping mirror means you can hold most steady down to at least 1/60th, less if you're braced and have excellent technique. Compact fixed-lens models like Rolleiflex, Rolleicord, Minolta Autocord, Yashicamat etc will be smallest and lightest. The Rolleis are too expensive now for your budget unless you get lucky: between the hipsters chasing them for jewelry and the collectors chasing them to stare at pointlessly, Rollei demand far outstrips supply. You can find older 'flex models under $500 in decent shape, but these are REALLY old. The 'cord version is love-hate: handling can be a bit odd, and for what they cost a Japanese TLR can be more pleasant.

 

Minolta Autocord has great lenses but can be expensive to fix if the focus mechanism is worn/damaged. The older Yashicamat 124 (not 124G) or Yashica D are nice choices in the $200-$300 range if very clean with Yashinon lens. Somewhat larger and heavier is the Mamiya C220: this has interchangeable lenses including 55mm and 65mm wide angles for landscape, plus built in bellows for closeup work. For decades, Mamiya TLR was THE medium format entry-level system (and my personal favorite TLR).

 

The big Fuji rangefinders are a good choice if you prefer quicker grab shooting at eye level (vs waist level with most other medium format cameras). The 6x9 version offers a gigantic negative size. But rangefinder vs reflex operation is a very subjective preference: some photographers can shoot both designs comfortably, others much prefer one or the other. Arguably, the rangefinder is somewhat less optimal for landscape shooting. You'd need to try it and see for yourself: perhaps borrow a 35mm rangefinder from someone to evaluate viewing/focusing. The Fujis can have issues with the shutter and film wind: check this immediately after purchase, and only buy from sellers with return/refund options.

 

Kiev 60 / Pentacon SLRs are probably not ideal candidates for your purposes. The large focal plane shutter often makes handholding impractical. Some of the lenses are fantastic, the bodies a vortex of failure and problems. A thriving cult adores the versatility and lens selection, but they survive by having three or four backup bodies and a repair tech on speed dial. Its a fun system for the adventurous, but perhaps not so hot for a medium format beginner who just wants a reliable hiking camera.

 

Bronica SQ and ETR were fierce competitors to Hasselblad, very popular with wedding pros especially. The leaf shutter makes for less vibration than Kiev, but the large mirror is still a factor in handholdability at lower speeds. Speed grip and AE prism are fantastic conveniences, alone sufficient to lure many people away from Hasselblad, but they add weight and bulk. ETR is smaller/better if you'll primarily shoot with rectangular framing in mind, the SQ offers the square option for larger negative and/or cropping options. Weak point for both systems is the film backs: check carefully for light leaks.

 

I'd very strongly suggest you consider one more unlikely candidate: Mamiya RB67. While large, somewhat clumsy and heavy, it is the single best price/performance buy in medium format. You get SLR reflex viewing, leaf shutter, large 6x7 negative, and the phenomenal ability to shoot BOTH horizontal and vertical framing with the waist level finder by simply turning the film back (instead of the whole camera). You can get lost in the enormous waist level focus screen: fantastic for landscape. Despite having a large mirror, in comparison tests the RB67 often proves to be extraordinarily well damped mechanically: braced users with steady hands have routinely pulled off slower-speed handlheld shots that rival reference TLRs used for the same tests. This was a very popular beloved system for many years, so plenty are available used in your price range. The later 65mm or 75mm top-quality Mamiya K/L wide angle lens would be perfect for landscape, earlier versions are less expensive but can also be very good.

Edited May 13, 2019 by orsetto

An SQ-A plus a couple of lenses and/or backs is very doable for under $500. It would be my choice of what you've listed. They're dead reliable and have the benefit of electronic Seiko shutters that never go out of time. The lenses are great, especially if you pay a bit extra for later PS lenses.

 

I now use a Hasselblad, but got along quite well with my SQ-A for a while.

 

I was never brave enough to hand hold below 1/125 with an 80mm lens, and usually tried to do 1/250 or faster. Still, though, it's definitely a workable combination. I almost always used mine with the speed grip, which gives you lever advance(two strokes), a shutter release that falls under your index finger, and a hot shoe. The last is something that I miss with my Hasselblad-when I want to use on-camera flash with it I usually end up with a Metz 60 CT-4, which also means a shoulder pack and possibly the most inconveniently placed flash sync cable I could imagine.

 

One thing that I didn't appreciate until I got into Hasselblads is just how good the standard Bronica focusing screen is. It's bright, but has a nice amount of contrast and "pop" along with a usable focusing aid. I have a Rick Oleson BriteScreen in my 500C, which is just as good, but installation was not straight-forward. If you want a screen as good as the standard Bronica screen for a 500C/M or later, you'll pay as much for it as you will the body by itself.

After many years of shooting 35mm, I’m interested in giving MF a try, but I don’t have a huge budget.

 

Most of what I shoot is landscape or other static subjects, but usually while out on long walks, so being able to shoot handheld is a priority, although I’ll brace against whatever is handy when I can.

 

I’ve been looking at a few inexpensive options:

 

Fuji G/GL690 -

pro: by all accounts well made with excellent optics, big 6x9 negative

con: old and generally heavily used, parts & repair difficult to find and expensive

...

 

I just started a similar odyssey and purchased a GL690 (after purchasing a very old Rolleiflex). I'm a 35mm rangefinder shooter, so the Fuji feels more natural to me than the TLR. I've gotten nice results handholding as well as on a tripod. Attached is handheld at (I think), f4, 1/125.

 

 

 

-K

A somewhat related question for SCL and ben_hutcherson: both of you have mentioned retrofitting a Rick Oleson brightscreen to your cameras. This has long been a popular upgrade for budget medium format, esp TLRs. I've been debating whether to buy one of these for my older Mamiya C220 for months, but each time my hand hovers over the "buy" button I hold back due to the very odd installation advice on Rick's website.

 

He mentions some calibration or altered shimming may be necessary depending on the camera, which makes perfect sense. But then he goes on to recommend installing the screen upside down (fresnel facing the top). I don't like this idea at all: the exposed fresnel could be easily damaged and dirtied, yet impossible to clean, and that position runs counter to factory screen installation of every camera ever made.

 

What has been your experience with installing the Oleson brightscreen? Is it possible to use accurately in the normal polished-side-up position? Was it unusually difficult to calibrate? This seems as good a thread as any in which to ask about this, since two participants have mentioned making the upgrade and its an important option/consideration for a lot of older/budget medium format cameras. Much appreciate any input you could share.

Hi Orsetto - It's been several years since I did the mods. I was used to rangefinders and SLRs with split screen focusing and Rick had a perfect choice in his lineup, plus I'd had previous experience with Maxwell Britescreens which IMHO were more hype than significant briteness performance - at least for my purposes. I, too, thought it was odd to install the screen the way Rick instructed, but gave him the benefit of doubt that as the "screen/lens maker" he knew his product and how to best use it. It has never caused a problem and really improved my focusing capability with the really bright split screen and overall field briteness. Installation was easy, Calibration/shimming, at least on my model, was a bit of a challenge, but worth the effort. Hope this helps.

There's a kind of 'debate' among the aficionados of Warsaw Pact -made 6x6 cameras about which is more reliable in use - the original, the Pentacon 6TL (avoid the earlier Praktisix), or the Soviet copies (Kiev 60 TL and all). With careful film loading, the problems of uneven film advance are minimized. They are not nearly so flaky as suggested above, however.

 

There is also a Soviet version of the Hasselblad (Kiev 88CM).

 

The East German Zeiss lenses and the various Soviet lenses in the Pentacon six mount are very good indeed, sort of making up for the risks of the camera bodies themselves.

 

For a less adventurous alternative, there are tons of Rolleiflex TLR copies out there (Yashica, Weltaflex, etc. etc.)

A TLR should be in your budget.

But these cameras are OLD. And after 40 years, the lube in some of them has dried up badly.

You should also budget for a CLA (Clean Lube and Adjust), to get them into good reliable shape. Then you should be good for another 10 years.

How much fun is composing through a red or orange filter?

You don't want no SLR!

I was quite happy with my Mamiya TLRs. - I 'm not the greatest fan of standard lenses so the weight seems worth it to me. I recommend staying away from "blown up 35mm SLR" designs. Chimney finders are worth getting used to.

If you want portability maybe look at the old folders and press cameras too. Lenses might not be stunning but hopefully great enough to have some fun on HP5.

A somewhat related question for SCL and ben_hutcherson: both of you have mentioned retrofitting a Rick Oleson brightscreen to your cameras. This has long been a popular upgrade for budget medium format, esp TLRs. I've been debating whether to buy one of these for my older Mamiya C220 for months, but each time my hand hovers over the "buy" button I hold back due to the very odd installation advice on Rick's website.

 

I've installed two Rick Oleson screens over the years-his original split image screen in a Rolleicord Va in ~2007, and a Brightscreen in my 500C last year.

 

I did install as he instructs, and have not had any issues with the screen getting dirty.

 

IIRC, the 'Cord was straight-forward. I was a bit more worried about the Hasselblad, but kept the shims in order and I think also counted how much I'd turned each screw. After I'd installed it, I went and stuck it on a tripod with my 250mm Sonnar parked at infinity pointed at the moon. As I recall, I needed a small tweak on one corner, but otherwise it was dead-on.

.....about which is more reliable in use - the original, the Pentacon 6TL (avoid the earlier Praktisix), or the Soviet copies (Kiev 60 TL and all).

There's no doubt in my mind. I used a Pentacon 6 for several years, while I got through 2 Kiev60s within as many weeks and then sent the 2nd one back for a full refund.

 

During those 2 weeks I discovered the following designed-in faults:

No frame spacing mechanism whatsoever - it relies entirely on fixed rotations of the take up spool and has no chance of evenly spacing frames;

No mirror brake - the mirror bounces back down during the exposure, leaking light from the viewfinder into the dark-chamber;

The lens bayonet is as rough as old boots - my Zeiss Jena P6 lenses wouldn't fit the Kievs;

The camera back feels less robust than a tin-can and easily flexes when open;

Both (brand new) samples had intermittent flash firing issues.

 

So, would I recommend a Kiev60 to my worst enemy... you bet. To anyone else - don't touch one with a barge pole!

Edited May 13, 2019 by rodeo_joe|1

Thanks for the info on Oleson screen installation, SCL and ben_hutcherson! Guess that makes up my mind: I'll order one to replace my older Mamiya C220 dim, fixed screen (as opposed to my newer C220f which came with Mamiya's own version of "brightscreen").

After many years of shooting 35mm, I’m interested in giving MF a try, but I don’t have a huge budget.

 

Most of what I shoot is landscape or other static subjects, but usually while out on long walks, so being able to shoot handheld is a priority, although I’ll brace against whatever is handy when I can.:

 

Shooting hand held, reluctance to carry and use a tripod, a very portable camera? TLR would appear to be your only choice.

Any of the others would require you to change your style. The challenge though would be to find a good TLR with lenses at your budget limit. That's a tall order.

You might find a Pentax 6x7 for $500 or under. They often come with a handle grip

 

The Fuji 6x9 comes with and without interchangeable lenses, the Fuji 6x9 111 has a fixed lens

 

A fun camera I use is the Mamiya 23 Standard (without the bellows focusing adjusting back plate), a 6x9 and very affordable. It has a handle grip with shutter trigger. It's not very glamorous but it's light weight and reliable as long as the shutter and aperture are in good condition. In my avatar you'll see a customized Standard with a Graflex film back but mostly they take Mamiya "S" shaped backs, one type is a knob wind and is lighter in weight than the other which is lever wind. The shutter trigger on the handle is sensitive and the handle affords steady hand holding. The rangefinder is easily adjusted.

I appreciate all of the replies. I priced out a Bronica SQ kit at KEH, just as a sanity check, and here is what I found:

 

SQ-B body (EX), waist-level finder (EX), non-AE prism finder (EX), 80/2.8 PS lens (EX), 120 back (BGN) = $650

 

Stepping up to an SQ-A body is another $100, and I don't think I care about the differences.

 

I'm assuming that I don't need to budget for a CLA buying from KEH, so this doesn't sound too far out of my budget, but I'm not happy that the only back they have is in BGN condition, since the back seems to be the problematic part of the SQ system. I see a lot more 220 than120 backs on *bay - how compatible is a 220 back with 120 film?

how compatible is a 220 back with 120 film?

 

The best way is to try it but the film pressure plate is slightly further forward in the 220 back because there is no backing paper on a 220 film, so when a 120 film is in it, the backing paper and film is squashed a little but most likely will still wind through. Then the counter is 20 not 10 so you will have to wind to 20 before removing the film unless you use a change bag and remove the film after 10, or perhaps you won't need a change bag

I have or have had most all of the cameras mentioned above and for walking around and shooting from the hand I would have to go with a TLR. A Rolleiflex, any Rolleiflex, a Minolta Autocord (if the focus lever moves easily and smoothly don't worry about it), a Zeiss Ikoflex come to mind. I had a great old Yashica Mat (not a Yashicamat 124!) but did not have great luck with other Yashicas. The removable lens Mamiya TLRs are too big and clunky to pack around. The later Fujicas 6x6, 6x7 or 6x9 are handy and have great lenses but may be out of your price range these days. I have a 690 with interchangeable lenses, great, but built like a brick house the kit weighs more than a 4x5 kit. SLR wise, from the hand I prefer a vertically oriented body. I have a Kowa Super 66. Great lenses. I've shot my Hassie from the hand but am more comfortable that way with the Kowa. Pentacon lenses are great but the body will let you down. I use the lenses on a Mamiya 645 with an adapter. Kievs, any Kievs, are not even worth calling a crap shoot.

Hand holding a Bronica SQ-A is definitely possible. Some folks have better results than others. I love shooting with mine and the results have been very satisfactory. I tend to shoot landscapes and any static scene with a tripod and the camera in the mirror up position but that's just me. Checking eBay Sold listings there have been three or four cameras sold over the last month complete with 120 back and in working condition for less than $325.. It might take a couple of weeks to come across the right deal but its worth hunting if you really want to go the Bronica route.

 

But as mentioned by a few others, a TLR is probably best for you if you just want to hand hold all of your shots. Here are a couple of test shots I took with a very basic Ikoflex after cleaning it up. If you want one that doesn't need a CLA you might have to spend $100 or a little more but they are fine cameras if you just want a basic TLR and aren't looking for a "system" Luckily I found mine for $11 with a case.

Hand holding a Bronica SQ-A is definitely possible. Some folks have better results than others. I love shooting with mine and the results have been very satisfactory. I tend to shoot landscapes and any static scene with a tripod and the camera in the mirror up position but that's just me. Checking eBay Sold listings there have been three or four cameras sold over the last month complete with 120 back and in working condition for less than $325.. It might take a couple of weeks to come across the right deal but its worth hunting if you really want to go the Bronica route.

 

But as mentioned by a few others, a TLR is probably best for you if you just want to hand hold all of your shots. Here are a couple of test shots I took with a very basic Ikoflex after cleaning it up. If you want one that doesn't need a CLA you might have to spend $100 or a little more but they are fine cameras if you just want a basic TLR and aren't looking for a "system" Luckily I found mine for $11 with a case.[ATTACH=full]1295220[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1295221[/ATTACH]

 

Yeah, I’m keeping an eye on Ebay. It’s not my first choice, but it does seem to have eaten the market. I know I’m asking for a unicorn, but I’ll find something eventually. I don’t know a thing about TLRs, so that’s my reading for tonight.

how compatible is a 220 back with 120 film?

 

I've shot 120 film in a 220 holder on a Rapid Omega (link). It works, but not well enough you'd want do it as a regular thing.

I've just pulled the trigger on an SQ-A w/AE prism finder, 80/2.8, and a 120 back. I'm not the biggest Ebay fan, but it looks very clean in pictures and I've got a 30-day return window. Fun fact - apparently Ebay charges sales tax now!

 

Thanks for all the replies, and I'll put up a sample soonish, assuming everything works acceptably.

Congrats. Hope it arrives soon. I think you will be pleased. The AE finder is great; I've never lost a shot to a bad meter reading. You made a very good choice. Edited May 16, 2019 by andyfalsetta

The Rolleis are too expensive now for your budget unless you get lucky: between the hipsters chasing them for jewelry and the collectors chasing them to stare at pointlessly, Rollei demand far outstrips supply.

 

:D never a truer word spoken..