Medium format on a tight budget

I'm considering buying a Fuji GS645W as a low tech manual camera with which to enter medium format photography. I'm not interested in equipment for its own sake and only buy things I can use. I know this old Fuji is considered an inexpensive alternative to the Hasselblads and Pentaxes and Mamiyas and the like, but I have never seen the photographs it produces, other than online. If the camera does not give the big negative detail and resolution that makes medium format attractive, then I might as well stick with my 35mm cameras and the consumer digital cameras that I currently own.

Can anybody offer some insight and advice? I would appreciate as I'm in the process of shopping for the camera and don't want to buy something that I will be dissatisfied with.

Thanks.

If you are seeking the undeniable advantages of a large negative, a sound alternative is one of the Fuji 690 cameras. When considering alternative 690 offerings, look for the lowest shutter actuation count (the counter is on the bottom of the camera) and the best (least wear) cosmetics.

If you find the smaller negative dimensions of a Fuji645 acceptable, then also consider a late model Rolleiflex. You will not surpass build quality/construction quality of the mechanicals in another camera and the late model Xenotars and Planars are fine optics, indeed.

No shame,ever, in shooting with a Rollei.

My preference is making large (16x20 and, on occasion larger) B&W prints in my darkroom and prefer a Fuji690 when circumstances require using a handheld MF camera.

Thank you for the good comments. I have been looking at that Fuji 690 camera as well. And of course I want to get one in very good condition. I've never had more than a few of cameras at any given time. I have five at this point but that includes a pocket camera (and a pinhole Holga).

Years back I was half of a two person photo exhibit. My pictures were 35mm black and white film and his were medium format, also black and white. I believe he used an old Pentax. The sharpness, detail and tonality of the pictures were all gorgeous. So I guess what I'm asking is: will these Rollei cameras produce "that look" that immediately says "medium format?" I will be shooting only black and white film by the way and developing my own film (probably using Diafine).

Thanks again for your help.

I don't own the camera you've asked about, but I've looked at the non-W version as a practical, imminently pocketable MF rangefinder that's nowhere near as expensive as the Mamiya 6 and Mamiya 7.

With that said, if you are looking for practicality and low cost, there are other options out there.

As mentioned above, you can consider a Rolleiflex or Rolleicord. If you stay away from the big name models like the 2.8 Planar IIIf and the Rolleicord Vb, there are bargains to be had on what, IMO, are among the best cameras ever made. I have many medium formats, but I still love shooting my Rolleiflexes.

There are some bargains out there in SLRs, in particular if you go with Bronicas(my brand of choice). The ETRS and the SQ-A both have a very low cost of entry for a basic system(figure $350 for an SQ-A, 80mm, WLF, and one back, and probably $250 for the ETRS). Lenses are plentiful and not terribly expensive. These cameras do have electronic shutters, though, something which has its ups and downs.

If you really want to be blown away by quality, though, you should consider 6x7 or larger.

A basic Mamiya RB67 outfit can be had for less than the Fuji you're considering. The optics are excellent and can get a bit on the pricey side but aren't terrible. They're also the size of a small cinder block, plus are about as heavy and ergonomic as one

The old workhorse Koni-Omega is also worth considering. These cameras are beasts, but the falling prices make them increasingly attractive(to the point where I'm considering picking one up for the heck of it).

I haven't handled any MF film Fuji.

Cons jumping into my mind: A scale focusing 45mm f5.6. - Don't get me wrong; I am a big fan of reasonable (as the opposite of super-"fast")lenses. But: f5.6, where will it get you, hand held? - I'm a semi nocturnal dweller of smog city. Blessed with such a camera I would most likely not load anything slower than ISO 400. If you plan to take landscape pictures in the burning sun YMMV.

Will the smartphone FOV work for you? http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Fuji_GS645_Professional_series states:

"The Fuji GS645S Professional Wide60 was released 1 October 1984 and is a rangefinder camera that uses a newly designed 60mm f/4 Orthometar-type lens ...[1]. The 60mm lens was chosen with snapshots in the city, or group pictures in mind, for which Fuji received user feedback saying the 45mm was too wide.[1] The lens is a 35mm equivalent to 35mm,"

If you have to pick a fixed (or single) lens; choose the right one. - For me it is usually a short telephoto; I'm into portraits landscape details and similar.

Fujinon lenses earn praise all the time; So I guess you can't go wrong with them?

I like my Mamiya TLRs and have a Pentacon with a single 120mm f2.8 for low light. Right now I am more likely to spend on digital and sorry I have no clue what to really recommend in the big MF world.

I'm considering buying a Fuji GS645W as a low tech manual camera with which to enter medium format photography.

Fuji GS645W is a nice medium format camera with simple manual controls. It is not compact but it is also not too big or heavy compared to several other medium format cameras. Scale focus can be both advantageous and disadvantageous depending on how you see it. You can always use a shoe mountable external rangefinder like I do. The camera is capable of producing superb pictures. Only caveat would be about the suitability of the focal length for your needs. Not everyone likes to shoot with a wide angle lens all the time. If you're on a tight budget, you might want to take a look at Koni Omega Rapid which is an affordable medium format system camera with nice lenses. It's ugly and heavy but it delivers. Rapid negatives (6x7) are bigger than Fuji's (6x4.5) and that can be useful in some scenarios.

... his were medium format, also black and white. I believe he used an old Pentax. The sharpness, detail and tonality of the pictures were all gorgeous. So I guess what I'm asking is: will these Rollei cameras produce "that look" that immediately says "medium format?"

In my experience, albeit much more limited than that of others here, one can get that tonality with any proper medium format camera & lens (so, that excludes your Holga) with proper film (so, that excludes flagrantly expired or some Lomo emulsions) with proper exposure. I've done so with sizes between 6x6 and 6x9 (admittedly not 6x4.5 myself) and cameras from Bronica, Rollei, Voigtlander, Zeiss-Ikon, and Mamiya at least (probably forgetting some others).

I don't know exactly how tight your tight budget is, but if it's dire, consider also the fact that 6x9 cameras guzzle film at twice the rate that 6x4.5 ones do, so that will double your film and processing costs (if the number of pictures you make were held equal, which is not automatically the case). You also spend a lot of time reloading with 6x9, especially since there is no more 220 film, and many older 6x9 cameras (folders etc.) couldn't use it anyway.

--Dave

Thank you. I should have mentioned in my original comments that I really don't want to buy "a beast."

I don't own the camera you've asked about, but I've looked at the non-W version as a practical, imminently pocketable MF rangefinder that's nowhere near as expensive as the Mamiya 6 and Mamiya 7.

 

With that said, if you are looking for practicality and low cost, there are other options out there.

 

As mentioned above, you can consider a Rolleiflex or Rolleicord. If you stay away from the big name models like the 2.8 Planar IIIf and the Rolleicord Vb, there are bargains to be had on what, IMO, are among the best cameras ever made. I have many medium formats, but I still love shooting my Rolleiflexes.

 

There are some bargains out there in SLRs, in particular if you go with Bronicas(my brand of choice). The ETRS and the SQ-A both have a very low cost of entry for a basic system(figure $350 for an SQ-A, 80mm, WLF, and one back, and probably $250 for the ETRS). Lenses are plentiful and not terribly expensive. These cameras do have electronic shutters, though, something which has its ups and downs.

 

If you really want to be blown away by quality, though, you should consider 6x7 or larger.

 

A basic Mamiya RB67 outfit can be had for less than the Fuji you're considering. The optics are excellent and can get a bit on the pricey side but aren't terrible. They're also the size of a small cinder block, plus are about as heavy and ergonomic as one

 

The old workhorse Koni-Omega is also worth considering. These cameras are beasts, but the falling prices make them increasingly attractive(to the point where I'm considering picking one up for the heck of it).

I don't own the camera you've asked about, but I've looked at the non-W version as a practical, imminently pocketable MF rangefinder that's nowhere near as expensive as the Mamiya 6 and Mamiya 7.

 

With that said, if you are looking for practicality and low cost, there are other options out there.

 

As mentioned above, you can consider a Rolleiflex or Rolleicord. If you stay away from the big name models like the 2.8 Planar IIIf and the Rolleicord Vb, there are bargains to be had on what, IMO, are among the best cameras ever made. I have many medium formats, but I still love shooting my Rolleiflexes.

 

There are some bargains out there in SLRs, in particular if you go with Bronicas(my brand of choice). The ETRS and the SQ-A both have a very low cost of entry for a basic system(figure $350 for an SQ-A, 80mm, WLF, and one back, and probably $250 for the ETRS). Lenses are plentiful and not terribly expensive. These cameras do have electronic shutters, though, something which has its ups and downs.

 

If you really want to be blown away by quality, though, you should consider 6x7 or larger.

 

A basic Mamiya RB67 outfit can be had for less than the Fuji you're considering. The optics are excellent and can get a bit on the pricey side but aren't terrible. They're also the size of a small cinder block, plus are about as heavy and ergonomic as one

 

The old workhorse Koni-Omega is also worth considering. These cameras are beasts, but the falling prices make them increasingly attractive(to the point where I'm considering picking one up for the heck of it).

Fuji GS645W is a nice medium format camera with simple manual controls. It is not compact but it is also not too big or heavy compared to several other medium format cameras. Scale focus can be both advantageous and disadvantageous depending on how you see it. You can always use a shoe mountable external rangefinder like I do. The camera is capable of producing superb pictures. Only caveat would be about the suitability of the focal length for your needs. Not everyone likes to shoot with a wide angle lens all the time. If you're on a tight budget, you might want to take a look at Koni Omega Rapid which is an affordable medium format system camera with nice lenses. It's ugly and heavy but it delivers. Rapid negatives (6x7) are bigger than Fuji's (6x4.5) and that can be useful in some scenarios.

Thank you for the advice. I appreciate it. I'm used to manual focus but I can see how it can be more problematic on some more than others. A lot of what I do is wide angle and ultra wide. I would be using this one for such work. I'm only reluctant regarding the one detail, i.e., that it will not give me the medium format look that I want.

Thanks again.

I don't own the camera you've asked about, but I've looked at the non-W version as a practical, imminently pocketable MF rangefinder that's nowhere near as expensive as the Mamiya 6 and Mamiya 7.

 

With that said, if you are looking for practicality and low cost, there are other options out there.

 

As mentioned above, you can consider a Rolleiflex or Rolleicord. If you stay away from the big name models like the 2.8 Planar IIIf and the Rolleicord Vb, there are bargains to be had on what, IMO, are among the best cameras ever made. I have many medium formats, but I still love shooting my Rolleiflexes.

 

There are some bargains out there in SLRs, in particular if you go with Bronicas(my brand of choice). The ETRS and the SQ-A both have a very low cost of entry for a basic system(figure $350 for an SQ-A, 80mm, WLF, and one back, and probably $250 for the ETRS). Lenses are plentiful and not terribly expensive. These cameras do have electronic shutters, though, something which has its ups and downs.

 

If you really want to be blown away by quality, though, you should consider 6x7 or larger.

 

A basic Mamiya RB67 outfit can be had for less than the Fuji you're considering. The optics are excellent and can get a bit on the pricey side but aren't terrible. They're also the size of a small cinder block, plus are about as heavy and ergonomic as one

 

The old workhorse Koni-Omega is also worth considering. These cameras are beasts, but the falling prices make them increasingly attractive(to the point where I'm considering picking one up for the heck of it).

Thanks for writing. Yes I'm looking for portability and performance. I knew someone years ago who used the Mamiya but I never saw any of the resulting pictures. And yes, of course I know of the Rolleiflex and Rolleicord cameras and I guess that garnered additional fame after the Vivian Maier story.

I know of the RB67 too but while I can imagine using that for indoor work I can't imagine lugging it around.

Thanks again.

As a FUJIFILM X user for my professional work, I'm interested in owning a fuji medium format. However, been researching online for quite some time now but never been blown away by the quality it produce. No offense, but a 35mm tends to be better in my opinion.

But looking at mamiya rb67 , rz67, 645, pentax 67, pentax 645... photos are superb! specially if used by good photographers....

Thank you. I should have mentioned in my original comments that I really don't want to buy "a beast."

Unfortunately that does get you into a bit of a quandry.

Small typically means 645 or 6x6(which is effectively 645 when printed to normal sizes).

IMO, the biggest "wow" in medium format comes with 6x7("the ideal format") and larger. While you WILL see a difference from 35mm in 645, the bigger negative/slide of 6x7 makes, IMO, an even bigger difference.

Unfortunately, with 6x7 at least with the offerings I'm aware of you can have small or inexpensive, but I'm not aware of a way to get both in one camera. The Mamiya 7 is the reference "small" camera(by 6x7 standards) but even a basic kit will still run 4 figures. SLRs like the Pentax 67 and Mamiya RB67 are relatively inexpensive are beasts. The RZ67 is neither inexpensive nor small :) .

You might still give the Koni-Omega a look. While it's not small, it is still a lot smaller than any of the SLRs.

I had considered the W version of the GS645 but wanted a slightly longer focal length and more speed so I got the GS645S, which has a 60mm f4 and a rangefinder. I think it's about the equivalent of 38mm in 35 mm format. Here's a couple of examples, both on Tri-X.

GS645S

Unfortunately that does get you into a bit of a quandry.

 

Small typically means 645 or 6x6(which is effectively 645 when printed to normal sizes).

 

IMO, the biggest "wow" in medium format comes with 6x7("the ideal format") and larger. While you WILL see a difference from 35mm in 645, the bigger negative/slide of 6x7 makes, IMO, an even bigger difference.

 

Unfortunately, with 6x7 at least with the offerings I'm aware of you can have small or inexpensive, but I'm not aware of a way to get both in one camera. The Mamiya 7 is the reference "small" camera(by 6x7 standards) but even a basic kit will still run 4 figures. SLRs like the Pentax 67 and Mamiya RB67 are relatively inexpensive are beasts. The RZ67 is neither inexpensive nor small :) .

 

You might still give the Koni-Omega a look. While it's not small, it is still a lot smaller than any of the SLRs.

I guess I have failed to make myself understood. Everyone keeps talking about the size of the negatives and not the quality of the lens(es). A Diana is a medium format camera as is a Holga. I realize that the camera I asked about has better optics than these toys, but are the optics anywhere near the best slr cameras or high end rangefinders like the Mamiya six and or even?

My favorite compact MF camera is a 1937 Voigtlander Bessa. It gives a 6x9 negative yet folds up enough to fit in a coat pocket. The best lens is the 105mm Heliar (50mm equiv.) The lens has a quality all its own! Mine is a pre-war uncoated version, but the post war Heliars were coated. The model I have is officially known as the Bessa RF. There was a later Bessa I and then a Bessa II. The Bessa II is fairly expensive, but the -I- is more reasonable. The RF like mine generally sells for a few hundred. I tend to prefer the look from older, uncoated lenses.

Kent in SD

are the optics anywhere near the best slr cameras or high end rangefinders like the Mamiya six and or even?

GS645W lens is very good. Is it as good as Mamiya 6 or SLRs for your needs, I've no idea. If you can loan the camera from someone and shoot a few rolls, you should be able to find out yourself. It might also not be a bad idea to buy one and test.

As the camera is quite popular among buyers, you can always sell it if it doesn't meet your needs and recover your investment.

I guess I have failed to make myself understood. Everyone keeps talking about the size of the negatives and not the quality of the lens(es). A Diana is a medium format camera as is a Holga. I realize that the camera I asked about has better optics than these toys, but are the optics anywhere near the best slr cameras or high end rangefinders like the Mamiya six and or even?

By and large, medium format SLR lenses are excellent. You might get one SPECIFIC mistreated example that's bad, but that's it. There are also specific lenses that are not well regarded(Nikkor 13.5cm for the early Bronicas, for example) and also lenses with built in spherical aberration like the Mamiya 150mm C SF, but these sorts of things are the exception rather than the rule.

Do all lenses have the magical "glow" that some claim exist in Zeiss optics? If it exists, they may or may not, but I've yet to be let down by Mamiya, Zenzanon(Bronica) or Nikkor lenses(early Bronicas). These were all systems meant for professional photographers and they wouldn't have lasted with bad lenses.

In my experience, 6x4.5 negs will deliver very smooth tonality and excellent enlargements (assuming you use the right film, and expose and develop it correctly).

I agree that a Rolleicord or a Bessa RF w/ a Heliar lens cannot be beat, and even an inexpensive Zeiss Ikonta w/ the under rated Novar triplet will deliver stunning photos when used in the right hands. My tastes are for the Rolleicord Triotar lens because I sometimes shoot portraits, and the out of focus backgrounds are much nicer than w/ a Tessar. Go w/ uncoated lenses if you like to shoot B&W. There is a marked difference in the look vs the more modern coated lenses, and a good hood will take care of most flare issues. We are talking about $100 to $150 cameras here, so the investment in a quality picture taker is minimal.

In the end, just buy something and go shoot it. It is very simple to resell this gear and recoup most if not all of your money if you don't like the camera, so in effect you are getting to test things for free. There is no other way to do this. Also, keep in mind what you plan on shooting with MF. If you like to shoot portraits, the olde folders are gonna be problematic, and not everyone gets on w/ a TLR. Again, w/o actually shooting one you will never know.

A Minolta Autocord is also an excellent shooter if you go the TLR route. Personally, I found that MF restricted my type of shooting too much so I went back to 35mm. You can forget candid shots w/ most medium format camera, especially w/ the SLRs that have shutters that are anything but quiet. The cameras are all much bigger and bulkier than 35mm cameras unless you shoot folders, and w/ those you can forget changing focal lengths to suit your subject. Also, roll film advance cameras are slow to shoot in any scenario. A Leica R 90 lens on a modern Nikon 35mm camera w/ an adapter gives me excellent IQ and has the flexibility to shoot almost anything, especially as it can close focus, which is another problem when shooting MF.