Medium Format delimna...buying new my next camera

I am getting ready to make my break into MF seeing as how prices are

coming down abit. I am intending on using it for landscapes and

occasional portraits. Mainly landscapes though. I have been set on

buying a Mamiya RB67 so I can capture the image on a nice large

negative. My search has led me to wonder about certain lenses in the

lineup of the older Mamiya gear so I have looked off to a few other

brands too just keep options open. I came across a nice Bronica ETRS

with back 75mm lens 120 back AEII finder and speed grip that I may be

able to get for a decent price. The camera looks to be in beauitiful

shape and well cared for. I understand that this is the 6x4.5 format

but if the price is good it may just be a viable option for me for

the time being.

 

I wanted to know how the Bronica system stands in comparison to

Mamiya, Pentax Hasselblad in terms of dependability and image quality

(lens system) I am serious about my image quality, and basically

financialy challenged. I don't mind paying for good quality as I know

that the purchase is an investment. This medium format is definetly

an investment for me as I intend to start a project soon that could

also become a financila benifit also. I am also not above buying into

a system to discover that if it brings me more than my 35mm is to

sell the EOS system to finish the MF sytem off.

 

We all have to start somewhere! If Bronica is a good system then it

may be worht considering this camera. As for the RB67 system as much

as I want one I would almost prefer to buy a RB67Pro or ProS body

then buy my lenses afterwards locally to try them before I buy them.

The only place nearby to buy lenses would be Eugene Oregon a college

town with like prices and only one place keeps the lenses for this

camera and with him things can be touch and go. Unless ofcourse I

could find the one online that I could checkout before purchase of

course.

 

In liue of this I figure while I try and locate a suitable Rb67Pro I

can always keep my options open Especially if a nice oppurtunity

presents iteself. In the case of this Bronica, it appears to be a

fairly new camera that had been well taken care of. But I have

noticed that quite a few Bronicas do not fetch as much as Mamiyas and

Hasselblads,Pentaxes. Is there a feason why?

 

thanks in advance, I hope I did a alright keeping my questions clear.

Thanks again.

Here's what I'd do first:

 

1) Decide on the format 6x4.5 is noticeably bigger than 35mm, but it is almost just as noticeably SMALLER than 6x7 or 6x9

 

2) Decide on the importance of a MOBILE camera/ vs. a studio camera. IMHO, the Mamiya RB67 is a huge, unweildy field camera, but a great studio camera. Get a camera that is well suited to YOUR SPECIFIC NEEDS. NO MEDIUM FORMAT CAMERA IS GOOD AT EVERYTHING!

 

The most important point is that last one. In my own case, I have ended up with TWO different MF setups: A Pentax 67 for landscape and other work with available light, and some 6x6 TLRs for use with Fill-In flash (which is the Pentax 67's most significant weak area).

 

Bronicas are fine cameras. But don't compare a 6x4.5 to a 6x7. If you want a 6x7 system, get one.

Daniel,

 

Also note that a Mamiya 7II gives you the same negative size as the RB67 in a much smaller, lighter, handier camera to use in the field. The lenses are excellent and it will give you some fine negatives.

 

cheers,

 

Joe S.

Dan, one point that is all to often lost is.....the photographer makes

the picture not the camera. That said the cost of the camera is not

relevant IF you choose the right tool which you are asking about here.

 

For very good low cost entry into medium format absolutely nothing will

top a good used TLR. I started with, and still use, a Yashica 124 TLR

that I bought new years ago. I upgraded this summer to a Mamiya C330s

TLR with ALL the goodies for a fraction of the new cost!!

 

Now some folk's don't like square 6x6 format but I find it easy and fun

to have a negative that is always bigger than my subject and folk's

kinda like the old timey TLR that is oh so quiet. So for what it's

worth try out MF with a TLR to see if you like the format while you

learn with the big view finder all the joys of such beautiful pictures

that they can make.........cheaply.

Almost all the newer name brand are good one. All it comes down to is what one meets your needs and price the most. I use a Bronica SQ-a and am really happy with it. The Pentax 6x7's are nice and usually cheap (and have great cheap lenses).

Daniel, question is clear. Lots of people face exactly the same confusing choice!

 

FWIW, my first MF camera was an ETRS years ago. I used it most for landscapes and it always performed well. Well, not when I dunked it in the Daintree River, but that is another story.

 

The choices was opportunistic to some degree, as there was a good set being sold by a colleague. I have never regretted the 'stepping up' process and many of my pictures still have currency.

 

The ETRS is light for a MF, which is relevant for the sort of bushwalking photography I was often doing. The neg/trannie is markedly smaller than 6x7, but this is not always relevant. Large enlargements, wanting your pictures to stand out to an editor are the sort of thing that are relevant.

 

Blads, Rollei's etc are the Rolls Royces, but remember that many cars will get from A to B.

I was reluctant to bring up the Mamiya C330 TLR but since Walt already started, I will chime in. Only reluctant because it seems to me it is quite different than an RB67 or Bronica. But then again it was through looking at all these systems and the Pentax, and Fuji that I finally decided on the Mamiya TLR simply because they were much less expensive and I could buy the 55mm, 80mm and 250mm for the price of one tele or wide MF SLR lens! I used this camera for landscapes, one wedding, and one portrait sitting over a 10 year period and loved it and the extremely sharp transparencies I got. I sold it only recently to pay for all the 4x5 equipment I have replaced it with. I would like to add that I sold it for the same amount that I bought it for! I often don't understand why we have become so glued to rectangular images, many times I find the square format much easier to control the composition in. If you are bent on rectangular then you can always crop it specifically to what you want. I understand the point someone made about sticking to 6x7 if that is what you really want because it does give you a little more size, but at 2-3 times the cost of a Mamiya TLR I am not sure it is worth it. I mention Mamiya TLR specifically because of the full range of high quality lenses available for it, not to mention all the accessories. Good luck in your medium format endeavours!

I've owned just about every major MF camera/system over the past decade or so, including such uniquely different ones as Pentax 67, Fuji 6x7 rangefinder, and a Horseman VH-R rangefinder/technical-view, all in the search for something best suited to the same thing Daniel is looking for: landscapes and occasional portraits, and all the while stubbornly vowing not to buy into Hasselblad which I considered obscenely overpriced. After losing a ton of money buying and selling all the others, I finally did get a Hasselblad system and am sorry it took me so long to get there. (I'm also sorry their resale value seems to have fallen into a bottomless pit, but that's another story). I also have a Rollei TLR for "going light" but find the fixed lens confounding for landscape work.

I also use a Mamiya c220 with a poroflex finder and 3 lenses: the

55,80,and 180. I only use it for landscapes in and around Yosemite.

Yes it is heavy but I like the fact that the lenses are the leaf

shutter type. I personally like the challenge of the square - so much

landscape is done in rectangular dimensions. One plus of the Mamyiya

is the ability to to macro. The problem is paralax but with some

practice or a paramender it is amazing what one can get.

 

I'm curious why medium format? Are you projecting images? Are you

shooting black and white? Are you printing larger than 11x14? I only

ask because I only use my medium format ocationally so that I can make

amazing projections. I usually use my Nikon F100 just because it is

easier and I rarely make images larger than 8x12 using fine grain Fuji

I got my First MF system a couple of months ago. I purchased everything at Evay, a Pentax 67 body (MINT) a 90mmf2.8 lens a WL and prism finders, close up lens all for $670 shipped. Later on I got a 165mm and a 55mm lens for about $300ea. I got some unreal images but some unsharp ones due to vibrations but overall I got a high % of great shots. (used a bogen 3221 w/ 3047 head and MLU) The camera is heavy but I didnt mind carrying it with all three lenses in a Lowepro mini trekker. I got used to loading roll film right away. After about 20 rolls I like the camera overall, nice package solid and low cost. Only have several complaints: the focusing screen is a tad too dark for low light focusing, the film advance is not as tough as the camera looks, try to advance the film after its already advanced (a common mistake)and the mechanism grinds a bit. Besides those two things the camera is awesome. The 55mm lens is just unreal, sharp and vibration problems are really minimized when using the shorter focal length, I have even used it handheld at 1/60sec and produce very sharp images. So, in conclussion I high recommend the P67 as a first MF camera. Works just like a 35mm with the exception of loading/unloading rollfilm and the size/heft.

The move to medium format is kind of a self indulgent thing, but also born of a certain need that I can't get from 35mm. I have a Canon 1NHS(at Canon right now for a checkup) with a 28mm, 50mm and a 70-200 2.8L. This camera gives me excellent results and I will keep it for shots on the go and action, unless ofcourse I find myself carrying the medium format on the tripod most, then it will be used to expand the MF while I go back to Canon FD for occasional 35mm. I have a freind in Honduras who is bringing me one of his F1es.

 

In 35mm I have found that even with good glass and slow film I don't ge the detail I want. The image in the view finder is also very hard for me to pick out detail as it is so small in the 35mm viewfinder.Atleast for landscapes with a normal or wide angle lens. Telephoto lengths are fine. I am planning on shooting abandoned strucrures in the old growth here in Oregon this SPring and I want it all on medium format. First this project is importrant for artistic side, but I know that it could also lend to some sellable images and with a MF the chromes will have detail enough to spare if i am lucky enough to get a magazine spread. In my dreams I know, but anything is possible.

 

I had a TLR which I sold last summer. I just could not get used to using it, and the shutter was silent and smooth 7 out of 10 times I would convince myself the shutter hadn't fired.So I figured I would get an SLR later. I also let my wife remind of something concerning the size of the camera(MF SLR). Being this small I would pack it verywhere in my backpack. The 645 format is lighter than the 67. I must keep this in mind too for medical purposes.The RB67 maybe a heavy beast, but it seems like a small camera. I would be tempted to carry it and would probably kill my back! What it comes down too is that my better half will end up carrying gear too! I am lucky to have married my best freind. We pretty much do everything together and have for the 9 years we have known each other.

 

I was also wondering about the square format myself. I have been soooo tempted to pick up one of a couple Hasselblads I have seen. They look so refined that its almost hard to resist! This is something else which tempts me into this format. I have shot since I was 12, I am 32 now. After my back surgery, I started taking my photogrpahy serious again. For years the AV1 only came down to shoot the kids birthdays or Christmas...maybe a school concert or ball game.After the intitial blast of reentry to this craft(as a kid it consumed me)I have gotten to where I have slowed down, and truly refined my craft This feels liek it will help me into that next stage and help me refine it further. Shoot, I live for my wife, my kids, and for shooting. Truly, after this I am planning on trying to keep this craft paying enough to atleast keep it going and maybe get back into 4x5. I had a 4x5 for a year and really loved it. I just cannot affrod to shoot 4x5 right now.

 

I am taking everything that is being offered here and using it. So if it may seem that I am rejecting some things, I am not. I am taking a lot of good information from experience of others and tossing it around in my head as I continue with my resaerch here. It definetly helps to clarify soem of what I have read.

The etrs doesnt have mirror lockup. Bronicas can slap though I've never once been able to see a difference but I probably wasnt in the "zone" when taking the picture ( I own an ETRSi with mirror lockup). I would try and get an etrsi. You can get a basic kit from robert white right now BRAND NEW for 600 pounds ( around nine hundred bucks? ). A deal. Get an AE111 and a screen from maxwell as the factory screens are dark. The ae3 is beautiful finder with very low distortion and built in diopter adjustment. A real pleasure to use and worth the money. If you are strictly a field photographer who DOESNT NEED THE BACKS OR FLASH then the pentax should be considered. These are great cameras and are small and compact with a well damped mirror.

 

I have thought many times of the bigger neg. I geuss if I had it to do all over again I might have gotten the GS-1 or square but I'm in the etrsi now and enjoy it immensely and rarely print big though I really dont see how a six by seven would make a quantum leap at my typical sixteen by twenty lightjet.

 

Bronicas optics are fine excepting the superwide stuff like most manucfacturers. PE is superior to MC glass in my opinion but I dont want to start a flame war. I've had many lenses and they are all very sharp excepting the zoom which I sold and even the 40mm is very sharp excepting the far corners. I liken the look of PE bronnie glass to

that of my nikkors. Different than the german stuff. I've heard many say that MC glass can be soft in certain focal lengths so be careful here. I do much night photography and the coatings in the PE lenses seem to be fine and flare resistant. I've no experience with Mamiya or Pentax but my guess their optics would be just great though some people who peruse this forum are extremely anal and those are the types that have deep pockets to buy contax, rollei etc. More power to em. I dont have that kind of money and no art director or stock agency has ever commented on my chromes other than they are "brilliant" "way sharp" etc. One thing I will say: Bronica lenses are hefty and quite substantial. Kind of like the old ais nikkors. They are very substantial in build quality unlike some of the more recent mamiya stuff. This probably doesnt matter much but its kinda of nice to see some craftsmanship ala hasselblad etc.

 

I would STAY away from the pentax 67. I never even considered one after all I had read about the cameras stability problems. Who cares if they have great optics if the system is fundamentally flawed at specific shutter speeds. See Michael Reichmans site for some detail on this if you care.

 

Bronicas do not fetch as much on the used market because they tend to be of more modular design. You add stuff ala carte. The stuff is overpriced if bought new in the US. I would think a bronica with ae3 and standard lens on ebay wouldnt be any less than a mamiya. Also tamron doesnt market the camera and MAC pours tons of money into advertising so this may explain the difference real or percieved.

 

Good luck to you.

Hi Daniel,

<p>

You already got loads of good advice here.<br>

Be sure to buy something you really want - not what is just available cheap.

<p>

If you wonder about landscape and 6x6 you can read more <a href="http://www.fotografiewimvanvelzen.nl/publication02.htm">here</a>.

<p>

Success with whatever you choose!

<p>

<a href="http://www.fotografiewimvanvelzen.nl">Wim</a>

One camera that has not been mentioned that is excellent, but somewhat rare, is the old Fuji G690, a 6x9 rangefinder with interchangeable lenses (unlike the current fixed lens versions). The camera body is a tank. It had 3 lenses: 65mm, 100mm, and 180mm, the last being extremely rare. The 65 & 100 are blazingly sharp: I've seen glorious 16x20 color prints.

For landscapes the Mamiya 7II is probably the best bet by a wide margin due to the three very good wide angles available. But, (and there always is one), the camera lacks a portrait lens with a close enough focus. I would avoid the RB67 as a portable camera as it is hugh and heavy and you would probably not use it. The prices on the latter are really low, however. Look into the Bronica RF645 as it may be the best compromise and pricing is great especially on used gear.

Dan, The reason I prefer 6x6 over ALL the other sizes is clearly

evident in the site Wim has offered. The 6x6 , to me , is like looking

out a window to see exactly that the photographer sees.

 

Like you I must be VERY careful of the total load my legs will carry.

That is one reason I prefer the TLR camera. The Yasica 124 or a Mamiya

c220 are both lightweights compared to all other SLR cameras.

 

There is also the fact that a TLR will force / help you learn composition, color, & focus in a low stess , inexpensive way that is

also a huge amount of fun. TLR's also are NOT battery dependent which

to me is a huge plus as they will always work when I need them to.

That and I avoid all the issues / cost that a battery dependant camera bring with them. More money for film and for my other interest in life.

 

Speaking of cost, and you seem like a good family man, a TLR is largely a ONE time expense. They are that dependable. With a TLR you can move

to a different size only if you want to because , in truth, you will never have to little camera. Just an old reliable friend.

 

Whatever you buy all the best in your photography & life. Enjoy!!!!

Dan, In looking a the site Wim offered I found this site there also

 

http://www.keithlaban.co.uk/

 

This site really blew me away with the landscapes that were displayed.

I also found a good comparison of 6x6 square vs rectangle format there.

From my point of view the 6x6 give no ground to the rectangle for eye

appeal or range.

Well, I have taken the6x6 approach into closer consideration. I have a bid in on a Bronica ETRS outfit of which I am sure I will be outbid, but thats okay. I have done major amounts of soul searching over the last few days and have arrived to the same conclusion as a freind of mine has. Hubert sold his EOS3 kit for a Hasselblad last week, and it was his email to me that really started me down this path, his reasons are the same as my own in fact. For one I have leveled out tot the fact that although I carry my camear everywhere I don't nescaarrily shoot it everyday. I have become selective since my initial burst of excitemnet upon re'entry to the craft.

 

That burst was great to help regin the skills that limited shooting for a few years had brought, in helping me become patient again and setting controls appropriately for chromes and what not. I was able to gauge my composition and practice the care that goes into making a work of art over just shooting pictures. With what I am doing now, a decked out medium format syatem will carry me farther than my 35mm will, of this I have no doubt. Even for some of the wildlife I may do a 250mm on a MF will work fine. I am not into chasing birds! Large game is more my thing and I know how to get close without spooking. Since I no longer hunt I can do this and not disturb either. Oh the stories this country boy can tell! I wish I would have had a camera for the last big bull elk I saw whose rack could have scratched his bum. No just a shot gun a bird shot sitting on top of the car as I stared at him wonder( it was elk season too and I was without my rifle also!)so I feel I have it figured out now. And it is a large step.

 

It looks like Bronica can give me what I am after I am watching a couple systems right now. One is an SQ2 with 50, 100mm macro with life size adapter and a 250mm for under 1500 right now. The other an ETRS1 with similar lenses but 4 backs. Both with speed grips waist level and AE finders. Either one of these coud easily replace my 1N and EOS lenses. I intend on contacting the sellers to make arrangements, and either put my 35mm up or offer as trade. Aside form the primes(28mm and 50mm) the rest is rather high end stuff.

 

I could easily make a formidable trade either directly or sell one buy other etc. to also have a lot back in return. Money left over for an appropriate scanner to scan down the negs with. or film. Here are the reasons I think this is right for me.

 

For one I have become more concerned with quality not quanitity( for years some could paint or plaster faster than me, but never approached my quality and always had to return to fix a f*** up. I never have to return. That makes me even as a higher paid employee, more value in that I was cheaper to maintain! Also with the severity of my injuries I do not move fast anymore anyway. the disc between L4 and L5 blew out past my spine where it stayed for 3 years as I countinued to work harder than most men twice my size. Along with 5 other disintegrated disc in the lumbar plus some in my neck where the discs bulge out and press on my spinal cord I move slow and easy, I lay down 4or5 times a day, and nothing is ever worth overdoing physically anymore. Thus I cannot go into photojournalism in a competitive enough rate to actaull be bound by the speed of 35mm. I have all the reasons to take it slow and easy, and carefully compose the shot. This has caused frustration because when I take this time in 35mm even with my good gear I always feel that the image could have had more as I try and make it bigger. My experience with this format thus far demands this discipline. In working like this as far as I can see a move like this would actaully be more profitable to me in that since I cannot offer action, high volume and intense pursuit of which the 35mm shines, I can focus on the kind of photogrpahy in which I would actaully have an edge atleast over what I do now.

 

I cannot tell you how much this has gone through my mind ever since I first picked up the RB67 at school. Bronica seems to offer me verything I need (I only use aperture priority and manual anyway) in a well made sytem, that seems versatile and each of the big systems I am looking ta now have most of what I need, but more than neough to get my starrt with this Spring's project. That said I would definelty choose Pentax 645 as a sewcond choice, but Bronica seems to give me two things combined of which I seek in all bodies. MLU, plus this unique to MF option of interchangeable backs. I have looked at many manufacturere's specs, and personal experiences over the last few days. All the advice seems to be grewat and right on the money. It has also made it easier go all the way now at a betetr time than in a few months or weeks after buying the intiial one. For some reason it feels right to make the change.

Sorry, I haven't read everybody else's posts.

 

I shoot with the ETRS, and have for about six months. I started out with the ETRS, one back, and the 75mm "E". I have added to that the 40mm PE, 2x tele-extender "E", and another back. I wanted something inexpensive and small since I do mostly field work. I have no complaints with the camera or optics, except for the fact that the teleconvertor is a bit difficult to dismount at first. It's a well-built camera. I wouldn't put it on the level of a Hassy or RB. If I had the money and could do it over again, I might go for the RB. Then again, the largest I usually print is 8x10, and grain is virtually undetectable with a 10x loupe, so I don't complain too much about quality. BTW, I bought everything used from KEH.com in "Ex" condition, no complaints.

 

I'll admit that Mamiya and Hassy glass is better and the bodies are probably better, but for an anateur photographer, Bronica is more than adequate. I've seen amazing things done with RB glass, but at any normal enlargement, you can't tell. I haven't had a problem with the glass, and don't think I will. Remember, modern glass is almost all AMAZING.

Wow, I got it! It is a Bronica ETRS with speed grip 75mm 2.8 MC 120 back with the AEII prism finder for $535. After a lot of hunting I figure that is pretty good price for this setup in almost new condition. I have also located a ETRSi body(with MLU) that I am thinking about as I have truly come to learn the importance of having two bodies over the years. I figure that I should also find a waist level finder for that body for when I am doing my Landscapes as I would like very much to focus directly on the ground glass for those shots. Part of this after all is for that back to basics feel.

 

I have a 50mm and a 150mm lens I am watching also. If anything we country folk really learn how to bargain shop. Patience is the key, hech I may even consider picking up an A1 for thehell of it as I don't know when Pape' is coming back from Honduras. The goal here is to be able to make this system equal to my arsenal I built in my EOS system, which of course this system is replacing. I had the oppurtunity to stop into to a local camera shop and pickup an ETRSi after I picked the little lady up from class and I liek the way it feels. This should be a nice transition. The lenses feel liek the same build quality as my old FD lenses which I have truly missed.

 

One last thing. I have a line in on a 50mm and the 150mm, and even an extension tube. I would assume these work like they do in 35mm and should couple nicely to make nice macro shooting. I came across one lens that said it had a life size converter but I think the auction ended. I was curious if this would be a better idea than a 100 or 150 with Xtube.

 

Ofcourse I may decide to forgo some things, and simply keep some of what I get out of my EOS system! all depends on what I see. Every term I make a contribution to my photography, I am thinking this term to just switch systems and leave it at that without bringing in any new resources.

Good one Daniel! I bought a ETRSi last summer and traded my old noisy S2A. I think the Bronica is a well built, smooth operating, nicely balanced camera. I have added a plain prism, a 150mm lens and Polaroid back from Ebay and MXV, and I have only spent £750 with the trade in. I have done weddings with the outfit, and the quality is fantastic. I have just bought a metz 60 ct also from Ebay and once i get used to it ( it is a beast! ) I will be have all I need..... um, well I quite fancy a 40mm, and a Sekonic 308 to replace my Lunapro, when will it all end?

Happy shooting!

 

Paul