Mamiya TLR lenses: Slow speed repair tips?

Hi everyone,

 

I’m new here so hopefully I’m falling in line with the etiquette here.

 

I recently purchases a Mamiya C220 and 65mm f/3.5. Using Audacity on my PC, I measured the shutter speeds. They were running about 1.3x too slow on 1sec up to 1/15sec, which is about the limit of measuring via audio.

 

So, naturally, I tried fixing it after watching a Youtube video which showed the cleaning and light lubrication of the slow speed escapement. But, after seemingly doing everything right, the lens is now running about 1.6-1.7x too slow. Yikes! It also fails to fire every once in a while. Hmmph.

 

The Youtube video mentioned that the timing could be adjusted via two screws, but honestly, re-seating the mechanism (in a slightly different position)had seemingly very little effect on the timing.

 

Does anyone have any other tips about working on these lenses? Any other mechanism that might be related?

 

By the way, just used a few tiny drops of Super Lube PTFE lubricant after cleaning mechanism in isopropyl alcohol. I also tried without lubricating at all, and it was still bad.

 

Thank you!

Personally, I send shutter work to a tech to do.

Too many small parts.

I would not trust an audio based timing system to be accurate for all types of shutters. I would want an optical trigger for the timer.

Using the proper lubricant is important. I don't know what Super Lube PTFE is, but it appears to be a GREASE, not an oil. I have messed up some things by using a lube that was not light enough, IOW it was too thick and it gummed up the works.

I don't think I've worked on my Mamiya TLR lenses, but have done a fair number of others. In general, everything needs to be clean and if any lube is used it's usually minimal and light. Superlube is my favorite stuff and I use three types. The PTFE grease, the PTFE oil and the low viscosity oil without PTFE. Gear trains usually run dry, save for the slightest amount of oil on the pivots. Either one is OK, but no grease! Slow might mean you need a thinner oil on the pivots or the adjustment isn't quite right. I have a vague recollection that the adjustment by position is unpredictable and more than a bit of trial and error. The next thing you need to know is the timing accuracy for leaf shutters isn't terribly precise. Somewhere you should be able to find specs for typical shutters. 1.3X was, IMO, pretty good, good enough not to mess with. Get it clean again, but after that you just have to puzzle it out. AFAIK, nobody works on the chrome shutters anymore because there are no parts and they're fussy. IMO again, the lenses in the chrome shutters don't perform as well as the ones in black shutters. Audio is OK for the slower speeds, probably for the faster ones too if you set it up right. After all, the best sample rate is 192 kHz. I wonder if you can record a photodiode or phototransistor with a soundcard? Watch out for fungus. Mamiya lenses seem to be made out of a special candy for fungus, usually the inner element(s).

Thank you very much!

 

I’ve seen people in two camps on the lubricant subject and it’s basically exactly as mentioned: Either lightly lube or don’t lube at all.

 

This is the black version. Retrospectively, I shouldn’t have touched it at all. If the exposure is +1/3 stop, so what? That’s almost a good thing for film. (Your tatse may vary.)

 

Interestingly, on 1 second, it seems like the rotational speed is now not so consistent throug the period. Starts fast, gets a little slower, then faster again, then slower. When its running slower, sometimes it even sounds like it might stop! What have I done!

 

I’m comfortable enough taking it apart now, but still feel like every time I open it is an opportunity to make it worse.

 

Does it still sound like an issue with the slow speed escapement? Anything else could be wrong, maybe with shutter triggering?

 

I used IPA, and denatured alcohol to clean. Should be good enough?

 

Thanks!

IPA is OK for some things but not effective on many others. Get yourself some V&PM Naptha, a.k.a. lighter fluid. The alcohol probably won't be effective on old oils.

Interestingly, on 1 second, it seems like the rotational speed is now not so consistent throug the period. Starts fast, gets a little slower, then faster again, then slower. When its running slower, sometimes it even sounds like it might stop! What have I done!

 

That will be fine grit or dry grease on one part of a gear in the slow speed clockwork escapement. The gear slows at that one spot every revolution.

 

Yes, use lighter fluid, and use it on the shutter blades also. If the blades are even the slightest bit gummy on their surfaces, they tend to stick. Lighter fluid evaporates fairly quickly and leaves hardly any residue, so you can use it liberally without a worry, (I squirt it in to free up shutters). You will have to repeat the lighter fluid several times, swabbing it up each time, and working the shutter.

I second the use of Naptha to clean up almost anything mechanical on these vintage cameras. Be careful with the shutter blades though. You're better off either keeping them dry or removing them completely and cleaning them individually. Its usually not as much of a nightmare as it would seem to take the shutter down to that level. I would position the assembly so that a few drops of Naptha would run through the slow speed timer and then right out of the lens into a catch container. Letting it run all throughout the shutter blades is asking for a real significant clean up job. Sometimes depending on how much lube is already in the shutter, those blades will never look as clean as you really want them to be.

 

And yes, you would be surprised at how "off" a perfectly operating shutter can be. Sometimes chasing perfection gets you into trouble. I too used Audacity before I got my shutter timer.

Thanks again, everyone. I will crack it open again and try with Naptha this time. I have a whole can of it somewhere in the garage.

 

That will be fine grit or dry grease on one part of a gear in the slow speed clockwork escapement. The gear slows at that one spot every revolution.

 

Yes, use lighter fluid, and use it on the shutter blades also. If the blades are even the slightest bit gummy on their surfaces, they tend to stick. Lighter fluid evaporates fairly quickly and leaves hardly any residue, so you can use it liberally without a worry, (I squirt it in to free up shutters). You will have to repeat the lighter fluid several times, swabbing it up each time, and working the shutter.

 

This is basically what I figured, just seemed unlikely because I thoroughly bathed the slow speed mechanism in IPA for quite some time. But I guess as far as solvents go, IPA isn't all that great. Must be a few grains of grit in there, as you say.

 

Now, regarding the shutter. I think in my frustration, I got a little Super Lube on the shutter. I cleaned it with a q-tip and IPA after noticing this, as it was definitely causing the shutter to hang. I think some might still remain. Maybe on the backside of the blades, that I can't see.

 

Side note, is any amount of oil supposed to be on the shutter blades? Are they supposed to run totally dry? (I know most eBay listings say "No oil on shutter/aperture blades" as a good thing, so just making sure.)

 

I second the use of Naptha to clean up almost anything mechanical on these vintage cameras. Be careful with the shutter blades though. You're better off either keeping them dry or removing them completely and cleaning them individually. Its usually not as much of a nightmare as it would seem to take the shutter down to that level. I would position the assembly so that a few drops of Naptha would run through the slow speed timer and then right out of the lens into a catch container. Letting it run all throughout the shutter blades is asking for a real significant clean up job. Sometimes depending on how much lube is already in the shutter, those blades will never look as clean as you really want them to be.

 

And yes, you would be surprised at how "off" a perfectly operating shutter can be. Sometimes chasing perfection gets you into trouble. I too used Audacity before I got my shutter timer.

 

Can you explain a little more about the shutter cleaning procedure? Where would the Naptha run out of? In what way would running Naptha throughout the shutter make a significant clean up job? I suppose most obviously it will get on the rear lens element, but that can be cleaned by opening the shutter and aperture, in bulb, I think?

 

Thank you all! I thought I was alone on this one, but you all have been very encouraging.

Side note, is any amount of oil supposed to be on the shutter blades? Are they supposed to run totally dry? (I know most eBay listings say "No oil on shutter/aperture blades" as a good thing, so just making sure.)

 

Both shutter and aperture blades must be clean and dry

 

I think some might still remain. Maybe on the backside of the blades, that I can't see.

 

The lighter fluid will get to the back of the blades as you pour it from the front, and will dilute the oil and will soften any pollution that may be on the back of the blades. As you continue swabbing the front of the blades, the oil and pollution mixed with light fluid, on the back of the blades will eventually "drain out". It just takes time and patience.

 

This presupposes you're not going to disassemble the shutter for a proper CLA, but judging by your description of the shutter in your opening post, it's still working ok but just needs a clean. However, the low speed escapement may still present a problem if the lighter fluid doesn't free it up, in which case you may have no other alternative but to remove it from the shutter and give the gears a good clean to dislodge any grit and old lubricant. So without disassembly, the short-cut method of cleaning can only do so much, but it's usually enough to free up blades by removing oil, grease and pollution if you put the time in, it takes time and quite a bit of lighter fluid and swabbing with cotton tips.

Every individual camera design reacts differently to the "urban legend, youTube genius, common wisdom" DIY repair approaches. What works great for one may not for another, even two examples of the same camera or lens. Compared to a Hasselblad or Rolleiflex Compur shutter, servicing the Mamiya TLR Seiko leaf shutters is a breeze for old-school professional repair techs familiar with them. DIY, not so much.

 

In my experience, the Mamiya TLR lenses have a bit of Jekyll & Hyde to them. Optically, they're a pleasure to work on: everything comes apart easily with no mechanics getting in the way of servicing the glass. Other than the sealed viewing lens of the 80mm S and 105mm DS, all the lens elements are easily separated for cleaning fungus/haze (or outright replacing).

 

The leaf shutters and apertures are something else again. The chrome faced shutters (both early and late) look dead simple but are far more twitchy that one might imagine. They're easy to disassemble, but when put back together three or four seemingly insignificant fitting points will either seize the shutter completely or create dysfunction. The black barrel and "blue dot" shutter/aperture mechanism is only slightly less twitchy, and contains some easily deformed or damaged parts. Repositioning of the slow speed escapement is ultra ultra sensitive, and the aperture mechanism is a dog's breakfast.

 

ALL the Mamiya TLR shutters, whatever vintage or barrel color, react poorly to the old "flush it with naptha" trick unless they are disassembled down to the last micro screw beforehand. The traditional DIY method of taking the glass off and flooding the shutter in place, or using a moistened cotton bud, usually makes matters worse: much worse. If it was slow before, it will stick open or not fire at all after the naptha treatment. Often the speed timing will go out completely and the thing will seem to fire at 1/500th at all settings: once that happens, you'll tear your hair out trying to sort it again.

 

When functioning correctly, the Mamiya TLR lenses are lovely. Reports of "disappointing performance" are almost always due to the lens previously enduring bungled DIY service attempts, or taking/viewing glass being switched, or hazed inner elements. The chrome face lenses can be very good indeed (the 105mm is a standout), most of the black barrel versions were improved slightly and had less sample variation when new. The 65mm seems the most subject to sample variation: some are incredible, some mediocre. Early 55mm production was not as good as later runs. The early and final 105 and 180 versions render differently because their optic formulae are different (early 105 is a really nice Tessar, later 105 D/DS is a nice Heliar, early 180 can make portrait magic, later 180 Super is a biting sharp landscape tele).

Edited February 10, 2020 by orsetto

By the way, just used a few tiny drops of Super Lube PTFE lubricant after cleaning mechanism in isopropyl alcohol.

That sounds like about one thousand times too much lube!

Usually, the amount you can pick up on the tip of a small sewing needle is more than enough. You dip the needle in the oil and transfer it to the pivots of the gears by wiping it onto each bearing pin in turn. The amount needed is barely visible with the naked eye.

 

There's also dry graphite lube in a lot of shutters, and iso-prop or other solvents will remove this and actually increase friction.

 

IME, most 'how to' Youtube videos are full of BS and should come with a strong health warning. To the effect that following them may result in severe damage; to either property or persons.

Thank you everyone again. Unfortunately, there appears to be some competing advice here (as there always is on the internet).

 

Every individual camera design reacts differently to the "urban legend, youTube genius, common wisdom" DIY repair approaches. What works great for one may not for another, even two examples of the same camera or lens. Compared to a Hasselblad or Rolleiflex Compur shutter, servicing the Mamiya TLR Seiko leaf shutters is a breeze for old-school professional repair techs familiar with them. DIY, not so much.

 

In my experience, the Mamiya TLR lenses have a bit of Jekyll & Hyde to them. Optically, they're a pleasure to work on: everything comes apart easily with no mechanics getting in the way of servicing the glass. Other than the sealed viewing lens of the 80mm S and 105mm DS, all the lens elements are easily separated for cleaning fungus/haze (or outright replacing).

 

The leaf shutters and apertures are something else again. The chrome faced shutters (both early and late) look dead simple but are far more twitchy that one might imagine. They're easy to disassemble, but when put back together three or four seemingly insignificant fitting points will either seize the shutter completely or create dysfunction. The black barrel and "blue dot" shutter/aperture mechanism is only slightly less twitchy, and contains some easily deformed or damaged parts. Repositioning of the slow speed escapement is ultra ultra sensitive, and the aperture mechanism is a dog's breakfast.

 

ALL the Mamiya TLR shutters, whatever vintage or barrel color, react poorly to the old "flush it with naptha" trick unless they are disassembled down to the last micro screw beforehand. The traditional DIY method of taking the glass off and flooding the shutter in place, or using a moistened cotton bud, usually makes matters worse: much worse. If it was slow before, it will stick open or not fire at all after the naptha treatment. Often the speed timing will go out completely and the thing will seem to fire at 1/500th at all settings: once that happens, you'll tear your hair out trying to sort it again.

 

When functioning correctly, the Mamiya TLR lenses are lovely. Reports of "disappointing performance" are almost always due to the lens previously enduring bungled DIY service attempts, or taking/viewing glass being switched, or hazed inner elements. The chrome face lenses can be very good indeed (the 105mm is a standout), most of the black barrel versions were improved slightly and had less sample variation when new. The 65mm seems the most subject to sample variation: some are incredible, some mediocre. Early 55mm production was not as good as later runs. The early and final 105 and 180 versions render differently because their optic formulae are different (early 105 is a really nice Tessar, later 105 D/DS is a nice Heliar, early 180 can make portrait magic, later 180 Super is a biting sharp landscape tele).

 

Orsetto, you are seemingly very well versed in the Mamiya TLR lenses, which I cannot overlook.

 

I'm between a rock and a hard place here, because the lens is "OK" now, but I know it's worse than before. I have the itch to try to make it better, but according to your advice, I'll probably just make it worse. Unfortunately, my brain tends to latch onto things like this, and won't let it go until it's either A. fixed, or B. FUBAR, thereby forcing me to buy a new one. By the way, if I have to buy a new lens, that's okay. It's a shame that a classic Mamiya lens goes to waste, but it's a lesson learned here.:(

 

I wonder why flushing the shutter with Naphtha is so problematic for these shutters?

 

Regarding positioning of the slow speed escapement (via two set screws): I noticed on 1 sec in particular, that the pin that is supposed to(?) contact the timing plate(?) when the shutter is cocked doesn't reach it in this case. For the other speeds, the pin is stopped by the stepping on the plate, but not @ 1 sec. For this reason, I'm surprised adjustment of the 1 sec speed has much to do with seating of the mechanism at all. Maybe there's something else I'm missing. Any words of wisdom on proper positioning of this? Fiddle with it til it's better?

 

Thank you!

 

That sounds like about one thousand times too much lube!

Usually, the amount you can pick up on the tip of a small sewing needle is more than enough. You dip the needle in the oil and transfer it to the pivots of the gears by wiping it onto each bearing pin in turn. The amount needed is barely visible with the naked eye.

 

There's also dry graphite lube in a lot of shutters, and iso-prop or other solvents will remove this and actually increase friction.

 

IME, most 'how to' Youtube videos are full of BS and should come with a strong health warning. To the effect that following them may result in severe damage; to either property or persons.

 

Yeah, I'm well aware of taking a Youtube tutorial with a grain of salt. However, I had no frame of reference for working on these lenses, so it was a good starting point.

 

And, if you think a pin-head of oil is enough, then sheesh, I probably did put too much oil on there. (Didn't think my little droplets were really much at all.)

 

Thanks a lot.

Both shutter and aperture blades must be clean and dry

 

 

 

The lighter fluid will get to the back of the blades as you pour it from the front, and will dilute the oil and will soften any pollution that may be on the back of the blades. As you continue swabbing the front of the blades, the oil and pollution mixed with light fluid, on the back of the blades will eventually "drain out". It just takes time and patience.

 

This presupposes you're not going to disassemble the shutter for a proper CLA, but judging by your description of the shutter in your opening post, it's still working ok but just needs a clean. However, the low speed escapement may still present a problem if the lighter fluid doesn't free it up, in which case you may have no other alternative but to remove it from the shutter and give the gears a good clean to dislodge any grit and old lubricant. So without disassembly, the short-cut method of cleaning can only do so much, but it's usually enough to free up blades by removing oil, grease and pollution if you put the time in, it takes time and quite a bit of lighter fluid and swabbing with cotton tips.

 

Thank you. At the very least, I'm going to remove the escapement again, bathe/agitate in Naphtha, maybe hit it with some of that CRC QD electronics cleaner, then finish off in IPA rinse. Then, apply micro droplets of Super Lube PTFE oil. (Super Lube unfortunately changed from metal syringe tip to this fat plastic tip.)

 

Regarding the shutter, Orsetto seems to be in a different camp here, so I'm a bit conflicted. I know IPA did help after I foolishly got Super Lube on the blades, so seemingly more cleaning would help too...but I also feel like I might eat my words on that.

R

I don't think I've worked on my Mamiya TLR lenses, but have done a fair number of others. In general, everything needs to be clean and if any lube is used it's usually minimal and light. Superlube is my favorite stuff and I use three types. The PTFE grease, the PTFE oil and the low viscosity oil without PTFE. Gear trains usually run dry, save for the slightest amount of oil on the pivots. Either one is OK, but no grease! Slow might mean you need a thinner oil on the pivots or the adjustment isn't quite right. I have a vague recollection that the adjustment by position is unpredictable and more than a bit of trial and error. The next thing you need to know is the timing accuracy for leaf shutters isn't terribly precise. Somewhere you should be able to find specs for typical shutters. 1.3X was, IMO, pretty good, good enough not to mess with. Get it clean again, but after that you just have to puzzle it out. AFAIK, nobody works on the chrome shutters anymore because there are no parts and they're fussy. IMO again, the lenses in the chrome shutters don't perform as well as the ones in black shutters. Audio is OK for the slower speeds, probably for the faster ones too if you set it up right. After all, the best sample rate is 192 kHz. I wonder if you can record a photodiode or phototransistor with a soundcard? Watch out for fungus. Mamiya lenses seem to be made out of a special candy for fungus, usually the inner element(s).

 

I meant to reply earlier to the second part. I think a good setup might be an infrared LED and infrared photo-transistor and an oscilloscope if you have one. Although there is infrared radiation everywhere, it'll probably be much easier to distinguish ON vs OFF, compared to using visible light.

 

Sound card would work just as well, just have to be cognizant not to overdrive the input. AFAIK, probably should keep peak voltages <1V (1N4148), so you could probably use back-to-back high speed switching diodes to protect the input stage (acting as a clamp).

 

Might be something worth trying and sharing, if I get around to it!

Orsetto seems to be in a different camp here, so I'm a bit conflicted

 

Orsetto has a C220 and he's enchanted with it, he's trying to protect you from devaluing a fine Mamiya camera. DIYing the shutter is risky and if the job gets beyond you, it really should be CLA'd by a professional. Is the camera near mint or just so so ? If it's in superb condition, it might be worth considering leaving the shutter till you can arrange to send it out for repair. The way you're doing the shutter is the short-cut method, but that method only works if there is a minimum of pollution and oil in the shutter to start with. Lighter fluid is a good cleaning agent, I don't use anything else, but as I said, it takes time and patience to get the pollution and oil out to the point where the shutter works freely again.

Orsetto has a C220 and he's enchanted with it, he's trying to protect you from devaluing a fine Mamiya camera. DIYing the shutter is risky and if the job gets beyond you, it really should be CLA'd by a professional. Is the camera near mint or just so so ? If it's in superb condition, it might be worth considering leaving the shutter till you can arrange to send it out for repair. The way you're doing the shutter is the short-cut method, but that method only works if there is a minimum of pollution and oil in the shutter to start with. Lighter fluid is a good cleaning agent, I don't use anything else, but as I said, it takes time and patience to get the pollution and oil out to the point where the shutter works freely again.

 

Thank you. The camera itself is in excellent condition, as far as I can tell. The bellows need to be replaced, although for the 65 and 80mm lens, it’s probably okay because the focus throw is very short, and doesn’t require hardly any bellows extension.

 

The lens is also in great condition, besides the mess I just made for myself. I’d still like to take one more shot at DIY, but in any event, does anyone have a good recommendation for Mamiya TLR lens repair? What rates should I expect?

 

Thank you.

I love the C220F as kmac noted, and also own a Mamiya Press rangefinder system which shares shutter barrels with some of the TLR lenses. But I'm not an expert at repairing these shutters by any means: just another cheapskate who needs to budget for professional repairs, so I've done a lot of DIY tinkering when the financial risk was low. Clean functional Mamiya TLR lenses typically sell for less than it would cost to professionally repair them, so it is generally more cost effective to replace a problematic example and then sell it off on eBay.

 

The mechanical leaf shutters in medium format cameras are often twice as old as the photographers buying and using them today. It is not realistic to expect the same speed accuracy from them as you would get from the electronic focal plane shutter of a modern Nikon or Canon DSLR. Even when new, this type of leaf shutter was considered accurate if it was within 20% at the slower speeds and 40% at the higher.

 

Photographers in these cameras heyday simply made a mental note of the deviation after testing with their favorite films, and incorporated the discrepancy in their exposure measurements. Back then we were using slide film with narrow exposure latitude, today's BW and esp color negative films handle leaf shutter deviation with ease. So getting nit-picky forty years later is self-defeating: it will lead you to do silly things like try to make the shutters work "better" (been there, done that, have a box 'o' parts as souvenir). Going to extremes trying to measure and adjust isn't necessary: you can compare by ear and eye, esp if you own more than one Mamiya lens as reference. If the fast speeds get progressively faster as you go up the range, and the slow speeds sound and look like you expect them to, leave well enough alone.

 

I've owned and used scads of these lenses. The most common syndrome with Mamiya TLR (and Press) leaf shutters is speeds below 1/60th randomly decide not to fire: they sound like they went off at 1/250th one shot, then next shot they fire normal, then back to 1/250th. Next most common is speeds barely seem to change with settings, where everything seems to fire at 1/250th or the shutter blades barely move at all (it sounds like it fired at 1/250th at every speed but nothing actually happened). Third most common dysfunction is the fast speeds are reasonably accurate but the slowest speeds don't fire at all, seem stuck at 1/30th, or hang open like B.

 

More often than not you can cure buggy slow speeds by exercising the shutter at those speeds a couple hundred times (yes, I said hundred). With the lens off the body, its pretty simple to cock and fire the shutter repeatedly while watching TV. Eventually the slow speeds come around and start firing reliably. Once they do, they'll remain good for a certain amount of time: could be a few days, could be a few weeks. Enough to carry you thru a project, but not really dependable: the shutter needs a full breakdown, cleaning and re-lube. When the entire speed range seems to not be working, or all the speeds sound alike, in my experience the lens is a headache that should be replaced: that fault pattern is a total PITA to dial out via DIY and may prove expensive to have a pro solve.

 

The difficulty with the slow escapement positioning and other tricky issues like exact tightness/position of each screw and retaining ring and barrel part isn't something easily demonstrated in a youTube video. To a certain extent, the Mamiya shutters are built like Soviet-era farm equipment: each lens is bespoke to a certain degree, and finessing the entire mechanism vs the outer barrel parts to work properly is a skill that can take quite a long time to master. A pro repair tech has the experience to intuit at a glance or touch what needs to be done, and do it quickly. But these shutters will seem booby trapped half to death to anyone not well versed in their venomous quirks: you could take one apart and put it back together EXACTLY as you started, and have it refuse to work at all. They're just very very strange to deal with. Fortunately they very rarely require parts replacement, just a good cleaning and very light lube, by a tech who's done it enough times to have nailed the re-assembly voodoo rites.

 

The reason common lighter fluid (naptha) tricks often fail or make things worse in Mamiya shutters, is it tends to loosen and shift around whatever is gumming it up in the first place, and/or it messes with the "dry lube" already in there. Naptha can also wreck the aperture mechanism to the point it totally seizes. These warnings apply more to partial disassembly, where one takes the glass off but doesn't truly disasemble the shutter: if you've broken it completely down, cleaning the parts with naptha is OK followed by the sewing needle tip of lube suggested by rodeo_joe. But you may still encounter dysfunction post-re-assembly that can be really hard to troubleshoot.

 

Any camera repair tech or shop that routinely serviced Hasselblad, Yashica, Mamiya RB67, Rolleiflex or folding-camera leaf shutters should easily handle Mamiya TLR shutters: since their mechanism is self-contained with no automation and minimal linkage, they are much simpler to get at. Its just a matter of knowing the zen required to make Seiko shutters sing. But before servicing consider the cost of just replacing the whole lens altogether. Other than the 55mm and 105mm DS, most of the TLR lenses sell for $60-$100 in good clean working condition today. In turn, you can sell one with good glass but bad shutter for $30-$50. So total outlay for a replacement could be as little as $50 for something like the 65mm.

 

I've also had success in a few cases with a simple barrel swap: good glass from lens with bad shutter swapped to lens with good shutter but bad glass. Such half bad/half good donor lenses are often available very cheaply. One needs to film test carefully after swapping, however: some of the Mamiya lens designs are more sensitive to shimming and collimation than others. And its difficult or impossible with the 80mm S and 105mm DS (their front viewing lens barrels are not removable).

Edited February 10, 2020 by orsetto

I love the C220F as kmac noted, and also own a Mamiya Press rangefinder system which shares shutter barrels with some of the TLR lenses. But I'm not an expert at repairing these shutters by any means: just another cheapskate who needs to budget for professional repairs, so I've done a lot of DIY tinkering when the financial risk was low. Clean functional Mamiya TLR lenses typically sell for less than it would cost to professionally repair them, so it is generally more cost effective to replace a problematic example and then sell it off on eBay.

 

The mechanical leaf shutters in medium format cameras are often twice as old as the photographers buying and using them today. It is not realistic to expect the same speed accuracy from them as you would get from the electronic focal plane shutter of a modern Nikon or Canon DSLR. Even when new, this type of leaf shutter was considered accurate if it was within 20% at the slower speeds and 40% at the higher.

 

Photographers in these cameras heyday simply made a mental note of the deviation after testing with their favorite films, and incorporated the discrepancy in their exposure measurements. Back then we were using slide film with narrow exposure latitude, today's BW and esp color negative films handle leaf shutter deviation with ease. So getting nit-picky forty years later is self-defeating: it will lead you to do silly things like try to make the shutters work "better" (been there, done that, have a box 'o' parts as souvenir). Going to extremes trying to measure and adjust isn't necessary: you can compare by ear and eye, esp if you own more than one Mamiya lens as reference. If the fast speeds get progressively faster as you go up the range, and the slow speeds sound and look like you expect them to, leave well enough alone.

 

 

First off, thank you for the incredibly detailed post. Really appreciate the time you took to share this information.

 

I knew well enough that +1/3 stop is absolutely no problem for color negative these days. Hell, +2 stops is hardly a problem, from the film's perspective. I suppose what drove me to "fix it" was my suspicion that it was a bit gummed up, and probably would only get worse with time. (There's something baked into my personality that gets me into similar situations, time and time again.) After playing with the mechanism, and noting its temperamental nature upon reassembly, I think I understand what you mean about these lens's quirky nature. And, after experiencing these quirks for myself, it's probably a fair assesment to say that this particular copy may never have been better than 10 or 20% accurate!

The difficulty with the slow escapement positioning and other tricky issues like exact tightness/position of each screw and retaining ring and barrel part isn't something easily demonstrated in a youTube video. To a certain extent, the Mamiya shutters are built like Soviet-era farm equipment: each lens is bespoke to a certain degree, and finessing the entire mechanism vs the outer barrel parts to work properly is a skill that can take quite a long time to master. A pro repair tech has the experience to intuit at a glance or touch what needs to be done, and do it quickly. But these shutters will seem booby trapped half to death to anyone not well versed in their venomous quirks: you could take one apart and put it back together EXACTLY as you started, and have it refuse to work at all. They're just very very strange to deal with. Fortunately they very rarely require parts replacement, just a good cleaning and very light lube, by a tech who's done it enough times to have nailed the re-assembly voodoo rites.

 

The reason common lighter fluid (naptha) tricks often fail or make things worse in Mamiya shutters, is it tends to loosen and shift around whatever is gumming it up in the first place, and/or it messes with the "dry lube" already in there. Naptha can also wreck the aperture mechanism to the point it totally seizes. These warnings apply more to partial disassembly, where one takes the glass off but doesn't truly disasemble the shutter: if you've broken it completely down, cleaning the parts with naptha is OK followed by the sewing needle tip of lube suggested by rodeo_joe. But you may still encounter dysfunction post-re-assembly that can be really hard to troubleshoot.

 

Any camera repair tech or shop that routinely serviced Hasselblad, Yashica, Mamiya RB67, Rolleiflex or folding-camera leaf shutters should easily handle Mamiya TLR shutters: since their mechanism is self-contained with no automation and minimal linkage, they are much simpler to get at. Its just a matter of knowing the zen required to make Seiko shutters sing. But before servicing consider the cost of just replacing the whole lens altogether. Other than the 55mm and 105mm DS, most of the TLR lenses sell for $60-$100 in good clean working condition today. In turn, you can sell one with good glass but bad shutter for $30-$50. So total outlay for a replacement could be as little as $50 for something like the 65mm.

 

I've also had success in a few cases with a simple barrel swap: good glass from lens with bad shutter swapped to lens with good shutter but bad glass. Such half bad/half good donor lenses are often available very cheaply. One needs to film test carefully after swapping, however: some of the Mamiya lens designs are more sensitive to shimming and collimation than others. And its difficult or impossible with the 80mm S and 105mm DS (their front viewing lens barrels are not removable).

 

Understood. I obviously do not possess the gray-beard voodoo rites of camera techs who have been working on these for decades. (Goes without saying.) Do you think there's any dry lube on these shutter leaves from the Mamiya factory?

 

I guess, at this point, I'm willing to accept this lens as an "experiment". If I can get it working 95% again, then great. If not, I'll look for another lens.

 

I thought about the barrel swap idea, but I feel like I'd rather just get a fully working lens, since it seems inevitable that I'll botch that procedure up too.

 

Thanks again.

Do you think there's any dry lube on these shutter leaves from the Mamiya factory?

 

Hard to say with certainty: the ones I've worked on varied so much I couldn't detect any pattern to it. Some of the oldest definitely didn't, but just as many did, the black barrel shutters often do have dry lube, but some don't. At this point I think its luck of the draw: somewhat dependent on whether the shutter was ever serviced (and how it was serviced) before you owned it. Dry lube could have been originally present but then removed, or vice versa.

 

All I can say for sure is lighter fluid, even just a drop, made matters worse in 3 out of 5 Mamiya TLR lenses I've tried it on (after partial disassembly). The chrome barrel seems a bit more tolerant of it than the black, which indicates the black may be more likely to have pre-existing dry lube. It sometimes seems the naptha removes a fine layer of graphite (or whatever) from the shutter or aperture blades: where they were a dull grey before, after naptha application they have a metallic sheen (and go further fubar). The aperture blades seem much more prone to this reaction.

 

A couple times I successfully replaced the entire shutter assembly as a module, once with a TLR 105mm and once with a Press 65mm. It took a ridiculous amount of work, I will never try it again: hours and hours of fiddling minutely with every single part. I still don't't fully grasp how the precise fit of some trivial-looking external barrel bits and the lens board can "magically" impact internal function. I'd almost (almost) rather work on a Hasselblad leaf shutter, and that's about as far from a DIY picnic as one can get. :eek:

 

Good luck! Hope you can make this 65mm work to your satisfaction! :)

All I can say for sure is lighter fluid, even just a drop, made matters worse in 3 out of 5 Mamiya TLR lenses I've tried it on (after partial disassembly).

 

More than a drop is needed for cleaning the shutter though. When I was unceasing the shutter blades in my Mamiya Metra, I literally poured lighter fluid in on the blades to dissolve the pollution and whatever else that was making the blades stick together. Almost instantly the blades freed up, but stuck again when the lighter fluid evaporated. The freeing up was encouraging so I poured more fluid in and began swabbing it out which brought the dissolved pollution with it. I did this about 12 times and eventually I had a perfectly working shutter.

 

The only disassembling I did was removing the front lens glass unit which exposed the blades where upon I could start dabbing with cotton tips after lighter fluid was poured in. The amount I poured in each time was enough to fully cover the blades. Continually working the shutter distributed the pollution and the cotton tips got it all out in the end.

 

The short-cut method of cleaning worked a treat for this Metra and I'm glad it did because it meant I didn't have to peel back and ruin the brittle leatherette trying to get to the screws that hold the entire lens assembly to the body. Removing the lens from the body ... well, I think that might have caused more headaches than I really needed. The rear glass was left in the camera all the time I was cleaning the shutter blades, it had fluid on it but was easy to clean by holding "B" open and getting in to clean it.

 

 

Do you think there's any dry lube on these shutter leaves from the Mamiya factory?

 

I doubt there was any lubrication on the leaves, but there may have been a little on the cam pins of the leaves. Those pins cop a hiding, especially at 1/500sec. But if your camera is only used once and a while, dry pins will be ok.

 

For lubrication of the other shutter internals, sometimes it's needed, sometimes not, although it's more desirable if a shutter is lubricated, and it's best done by Rodeo Joe's method, a tiny amount you can hardly detect. One shutter I thoroughly cleaned and dried, still worked erratically and it wasn't until I swiped some parts with an oil soaked tooth pick did it start working smoothly the way shutters should work. From memory the oil was sewing machine oil. There may be many arguments about what lubricant to use, but whatever is used, the amount used must be almost microscopic on each part. There is one part that definitely does need lubricating in shutters. That part is the shutter cocking circular ring inside the shutter that moves around the inner body of the shutter casing, it's under relatively strong spring pressure and could give trouble if not lubricated.

Shutter leaves run dry (as does most of the shutter mechanism). The naptha or any degreaser will wick out lubricant from everywhere it reaches, depositing the oil and dirt as it disolves. That is why I recommended positioning the mechanism so that when you "flush" the controller the runoff doesn't get into the blades. To do this you have to hold the assembly nearly upside down as you apply the naptha. Definitely you need to get any glass elements out before proceeding with any cleaners. Although a Mamiya may not have any compound elements in it, I know too little about lens cement history and techniques to want to risk starting separation by introducing windex, alcohol, naptha, etc in a quantity I can not totally control.

 

I am sure you can repeatedly flush shutter leaves and endlessly wipe them and literally wash, rinse, repeat over and over again. But rarely do you get all of the oil off. The shutter blades will have trace lines of oil/dust on the edges on one side or both and they can get a "rainbow" look to them. This will attract dust and flecks of whatever flies around in there and sooner or later you need to get back in there rather than enjoy another 40 years of trouble-free operation :) Additionally, the constant swabbing deposits hairlike fibers on the blades or around the edges of the assembly that you need to look closely for and remove. The best approach is to go a little further and remove all the blades, clean them individually as well as the aperture control assembly and then put it all back together. Its intimidating at first but you would be surprised at how good you can get at putting them all back together. Once you have done a total disassembly and reassembly of an aperture assembly you will find that you will only do a flush and wipe job to a lens you don't really care about.

A couple of the Mamiya TLR lenses do have compound elements, andyfalsetta, but since the optics modules are completely removable by simple unscrewing from the shutter barrel and/or lens board, you can totally eliminate the risk of solvent contaminating the glass. An advantage of Mamiya's somewhat jurassic TLR and Press engineering.

 

kmac, I have tried your method of flushing a few times, with variable success: things either worked for awhile then stopped again, or just got more sticky or seized up. In theory flushing should work, in practice some of the Mamiya TLR shutters are just weird in the way they react to such traditional simple cleaning. Depending on a particular lens condition, perhaps my flushing killed whatever remained of the original functional lube, then redistributed more grime to those areas?

 

You do make me wonder if perhaps the Mamiya shutters would react better to a brute force soak and swish approach: with the optics removed, one could just dunk the entire bottom of the lens board with shutter barrel into a jar of naptha, soak it to the core, agitate and work the mechanism repeatedly, then let dry? As crazy as that sounds, it would bypass the arduous factor of disassembly/reasembly. These Mamiya shutters are hell on earth to get fully operational again after you take them apart (the slightest change in fitting pressure to any part of the barrel will throw off functionality, balancing several of those points against each other is torture).

 

A dunk flush with most typical camera lenses would be tricky due to their integrated focus helicals being a complication, but the Mamiya TLR lenses have no helical and the Mamiya Press optics/shutter barrel is easily removed from its helical. The next one of these that gives me trouble may get the full bath experiment: they're so cheap today there's not much to lose if it proves a disaster.

kmac, I have tried your method of flushing a few times, with variable success: things either worked for awhile then stopped again, or just got more sticky or seized up. In theory flushing should work, in practice some of the Mamiya TLR shutters are just weird in the way they react to such traditional simple cleaning. Depending on a particular lens condition, perhaps my flushing killed whatever remained of the original functional lube, then redistributed more grime to those areas?

 

Perhaps different approaches to the job and being fastidious about cleaning can mean success or failure. Being mechanically minded can help as well. Every Mamiya Press lens in my kit that I've tackled so far worked good after cleaning and lubricating. That's two 65mm's and two 90mm's, all chrome face. I really found them a breeze to do, only one of them gave me trouble with a hidden straight spring that moved out of it's slot and took a while to trace where it was suppose to sit, it was well hidden, but now I at least know about it for the future. I keep checking the lenses and none have shown any sign of acting up. The only disassembly on these was removal of front glass unit and the chrome face rings covering the mechanisms.

 

I will admit though that my Metra, after I used it for a while then let it stand for a month, did slow down, but all it took to make it good again was 5mins of swiping the blades with a cotton tip soaked with light fluid and it's back to normal, 8 months or more has passed and it's still good. I shot some nice B&W pics with that Metra, not bad considering it had a ceased helicoil and ceased shutter when I bought it, but it was correctly described in the ebay listing and I knew what I was getting myself into, not cheap either, but the shutter is precisely engineered and built to last, only dirt grime can stop them from working.

 

A dunk flush with most typical camera lenses would be tricky due to their integrated focus helicals being a complication, but the Mamiya TLR lenses have no helical and the Mamiya Press optics/shutter barrel is easily removed from its helical. The next one of these that gives me trouble may get the full bath experiment: they're so cheap today there's not much to lose if it proves a disaster.

 

Helicoils can be a disaster if even breathed on. I don't touch then if they turn. You can of course separate the two halves, making sure they are adequately marked before hand for correct position for reassembly, thoroughly cleaned and lubricated first. What is taboo is trying to re-lubricate an old helicoil without separating the two halves, you know, just using a probe with grease on the end of it and get it on the few threads that stick out when the lens is set on infinity. Do this only if you want to wreck your helicoil. What happens is the new grease gets mixed with the accumulated dirt and grit plus old grease at the very end of the helicoil which is formed by the constant screwing back and forth while focusing. Disturbing that build up and by adding new grease results in a substance like lapping paste thick enough to stop your helicoil in it's tracks, and will destroy an aluminium half of a helicoil. I'm speaking from bitter experience if you couldn't tell.

 

It's not advisable to dunk lenses with helicoils, just flush the shutter a bit at a time ensuring the fluid doesn't splash near the helicoil. Dunking a lens with a helicoil dissolves the grease and you end up with a focus ring that swings around in the breeze.

The only disassembly on these was removal of front glass unit and the chrome face rings covering the mechanisms.

 

Interesting! For me, it was the exact opposite experience. Getting the chrome face, shutter dial and retaining rings off was easy, but putting them back on resulted in days of frustration: no matter what I did, I could not get the pieces in the precise order of tightness that allows proper shutter operation. A hair off on the retainer, and the shutter won't fire at all: if I got that right, one of the other rings would prevent proper cocking. If I got the cocking sorted, the slow speeds would go out. I put myself thru that twice, but never again: these lenses are affordable enough to just keep buying and re-selling until I find good examples.

 

Helicoils can be a disaster if even breathed on. I don't touch then if they turn.

 

Me neither. If its a bit dry and turns looser than I'd like, I try to live with it. If its really stiff and hard to turn, I usually get rid of it. So far none of my stiff helicoids were on lenses of any significant monetary or optical value, so they weren't worth the cost of professional relube.

 

I did have one 180mm f/2.8 Nikkor-P that I really liked, with a focus ring almost impossible to turn with camera in shooting position. That lens came to me for only $40 because of that defect, but it didn't really perform well enough to spend $150 more on repair (for that outlay I could almost replace it with the much better ED version). Vintage Nikkors are almost always are dry and loose instead of stiff and tight: I think that 180 may have suffered impact damage.

 

I've got an old silver barrel 58/2 Biotar in Exakta mount that I sometimes use on a Sony mirrorless. Like many vintage Zeiss, you need a pipe wrench to turn the focus ring. andyfalsetta routinely tackles these Zeiss bad boys, using everything from self-invented tools to a gas barbecue, but I wouldn't dream of opening one. Some years back I had several Hasselblad silver and black C lenses that were very stiff, but thats apparently designed in and can't be adjusted much. When David Odess himself told me he couldn't make the focus feel on the Zeiss C barrels smoother, I reluctantly dumped them in favor of the later CF and CB versions. Using a 50, 60 or 80 C lens on a Hassy with their nasty serrated metal focus rings is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.