Mamiya Digital...wow

Just saw mamiya MF Digital on net...

another one here

I could only find this (English) flash quickly on the Japan site:

<blockquote>

http://www.mamiya-op.co.jp/home/camera/digital/Mamiyadigital_2.html

</blockquote>

We live in interesting times...

I think I saw 48mm x 36mm slide by, which is twice the dimensions of a 35mm frame though well off the 60mm x 45mm of that format.

 

Now, if the quality of this is better than the Canon 1DS/1DSII and it's priced lower, what will that mean for the marketplace?

 

Very curious indeed ...

Check this out!!!

http://www.photokina-show.com/

Estimated price for ZD camera 10000 Euros, for ZD back 9000 Euros

Very nice!!!

I could shoot 2-4 frames on a 1Ds and stitch them together in Photoshop for a hell of a lot less!! And I wouldn't need to buy a whole set of Mamiya lenses either.

Stitching photos together is a royal pain. I've done it several times with 50 megabyte files. It's not something I'd like to do often.

 

Now, regarding the Mamiya camera. Very interesting price point. More costly than the Canon, but not excessively so. I would think it might be very attractive to the studio photographers.

And all this time Canon thought Nikon was their main competition. Looks like a great camera...small, too.

Normally I stay out of vaporware discussions (hopefully this one will become solid ...), but

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<i>I could shoot 2-4 frames on a 1Ds and stitch them together in Photoshop for a hell of a lot less!! </i>

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is such a bizarre statement! 1. Time is money. 2. Time is money. 3. It's not that much more than a 1DS II. Also it should in principle provide better image quality, with larger pixels and 14-bit depth. Of course, execution is everything, and perhaps quality is no better than the 1DS, but if it is, no amount of stitching will make up for that.

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Very intriguing camera -- easily the most interesting thing out of PK so far. The back itself may put a lot of pressure on Leaf, PhaseOne, etc. to bring prices down. Bravo Mamiya!

Another link (not sure if this is through photokina main):

<blockquote>

<a href="http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/

ZD_en.html">hands on report</a>

</blockquote>

I agree on the pressure for Phase One and the others.<br>

Hassie to has bought Imacon, and announced a new cheaper back for their V line !<br>

This competition is good for us ;-)<br>

<br>

For those who think Canon is better just because they would not need to buy Mamiya

lenses, well, some may prefer not change their Mamiya lenses for Canon lenses... AND,

nothing can catch up for the size of the sensor.<br>

I am usually quite of a Canon defensor, but THIS is not a camera in the same

category.<br>

Lenny<br>

<a href="http://afimage.com">AFimage Photographe</a>

I think Phase One have realised for a long time their market would only last so long. That is why they seem to be more and more a software company.

 

Not nice for the people working in their hardware devision when they become obsolete, though.

 

Film reached a limit and resolution can only go up with size. As the 1DsII proves, this is not yet the case with smaller digital sensors and only time will tell if there will be a need for larger sensor sizes in a couple of years.

 

It will be interesting to see when the time comes that there is no point in higher res 35mm size sensors, simply becuase the resolution of those small lenses can't keep up!

More entry into the market will definetely help consumers. I have often felt that as long as digital backs remain as expensive as they are, they will never become a viable alternative for many photographers. In the meantime, 35mm digital would continue to improve to the point where few would see any advantage in digital medium format.

Great news indeed. I would have expected something like this from Pentax since they don't have a digital ready medium format body. It might be possible to fit P67 lenses and others, to that body. Many companies have a lot of catching up to do. Sure, small format digital can and will develop, but medium format will always be medium format, and better than small format. No matter what advances are done in small format digital, the same advances can be transferred to medium format digital as well. Who is to say that 24x36 mm will be the optimal size of sensor in 10-20 years time? It could be smaller, or it could be larger. One thing is for sure, at least for the next few years, larger is better.

>dave t , sep 28, 2004; 11:26 p.m.

>Normally I stay out of vaporware discussions (hopefully this one >will become solid ...), but

>

>>I could shoot 2-4 frames on a 1Ds and stitch them together in >>Photoshop for a hell of a lot less!!

>

>is such a bizarre statement!

 

How is this a bizarre statement? I guess it all depends on your point of view. If you are a landscape, product, or still life shooter, then there is absolutely nothing bizarre about stitching photos to get higher resolution images (e.g., http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/). Perhaps you are unaware of the availability of powerful stitching software and/or your Photoshop skills are not up to the task? Or perhaps you're not aware of the proper way to set up a 4-shot mosaic for later stitching? If set up and executed properly, stitching 4 photos takes very little time and the results can be stunning!

 

If, on the other hand, you are a wedding or portrait shooter (I doubt anyone will be shooting sports or action shots with this ZD camera), then yes, stitching would be a royal pain in the rear.

 

>Also it should in principle provide better image quality, with >larger pixels and 14-bit depth.

 

I don't get it. The Mamiya sensor is EXACTLY 2x the size of the 1Ds sensor and has EXACTLY 2x the number of pixels. So how again are the pixels larger in the Mamiya sensor? Also, from the press release: "The 14 bit A/D (Analog to Digital) conversion records information as 12-bit per colour channel." The 1Ds is also 12 bit per color. So, with the same size pixels and the same bit depth the image quality is likely to be similar to the 1Ds. In which case, a stitched mosaic can produce an image of equal quality at an even higher resolution than the 22 megapixel Mamiya ZD. Its all in the execution.

 

>3. It's not that much more than a 1DS II.

 

Man I wish I lived in your world! $4000 more just for the body is a lot where I come from! Forget about the additional $4000-6000 more for lenses, batteries, chargers, filters, CF cards, etc.! I think I'll just stay with my 1Ds and happily stitch images!

Why not get a scanning back for 4x5? Really big images and lenses are cheaper than Canon glass. 4x5 Body plus back is also not much different from 1Ds pricewise.

 

There are different tools for different jobs. 1Ds may be the best all round digital camera but it does not mean it is the best for every use. It is very expensive for someone who is contemplating whether they have enough to get a D70 or 20D, but cheap to someone who considers a 22MP medium format back. Competition is always good. It means Canon must come up with something better again, and also try to lower its prices. This benefits us all, also you when you eventually get your next body.

The limiting factors of this camera - the INCREDIBLE prices of MF lenses, and the

incredible LACK of lens options (when compared to Nikon or Canon).

 

For the price they'll ask for this beast, you could get a 1Ds II, a 1D II, a 20D, and a whole

mess of lenses.

Ilkka,

 

I totally agree with everything you say! Different tools for different jobs. Different techniques for different photographers. I just rec'd my first 4x5 camera (sans scanning back)and am enjoying it immensely. Some day a digital back for the 4x5 may be appropriate for me but I have also invested in Canon lenses and digital cameras. Because of this I cannot afford a new Mamiya digital and all the lenses that go with it. So the next best thing for me is to stitch images for high resolution or shoot 4x5 and have it drum scanned.

 

I'm thrilled about the ZD! And I'm surprised it took this long to get a medium format digital camera out. I would have expected to see one sooner. But the more advances in technology and the more cameras offered just means good news for consumers as the prices will keep dropping and the quality will keep rising. Interesting times!

This is not a consumer camera. The incredible price of MF lenses is exactly the same as when they are fitted to a Mamiya or Hasselblad MF camera. Something that pros have been doing for decades. But I agree, to make the most of a portable digital camera for field use, good zoom lenses are a great benefit. And that is where Canon (and Nikon) shine compared with any and all MF suppliers.

If stitching is so easy, why doesn't everybody do it? The advantages of a medium format digital camera should be pretty evident to anyone who has ever shot with a Hasselblad, Pentax 6X7 or any other decent medium format camera.

Here is Mamiya ZD pdf!!!

 

http://www.legene.com/planet/mamiya_zd.pdf

 

ZD out Q1 2005.

 

 

Enjoy

<i>If set up and executed properly, stitching 4 photos takes very little time and the results can be stunning!</i>

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If nothing moves, and you don't mind taking the time to set up, shoot, and stitch, yes.

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<i>If, on the other hand, you are a wedding or portrait shooter... stitching would be a royal pain in the rear. </i>

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More like impossible on a practical basis (unless you like utterly wooden figures).

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<i>I don't get it. The Mamiya sensor is EXACTLY 2x the size of the 1Ds sensor and has EXACTLY 2x the number of pixels. So how again are the pixels larger in the Mamiya sensor?</i>

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True for the 1DS, not the 1DSII. But if the 1DsII is as good or better than the original, that may simply indicate progression of technology -- which may (or may not -- can't say at this stage) apply to the ZD as well.

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<i> Also, from the press release: "The 14 bit A/D (Analog to Digital) conversion records information as 12-bit per colour channel."</i>

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Now this is interesting (I only saw an earlier blurb which didn't include this information) ... wonder what it means. Possibly that the 2 LSB are dropped for noise reasons? Actually, any kind of shadow noise reduction algorithm reduces real bit depth -- which is probably irrelevant since the LSB may not contribute real information and may be reconstructed in the algorithm. Is the A/D limiting for the ZD? For the Canon? The P1? Wonder how Canon and Nikon (and P1, Leaf etc) do their noise reduction and data conversion .... How the ZD will do in the real world remains to be seen (I hope it will at least match the Leafs and P1s and Imacons etc, or they won't have a reason to reduce their prices!) Actually, whether it even ships remains to be seen, but it does seem to be a finished enough product to make one hopeful.

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<i>Man I wish I lived in your world! $4000 more just for the body is a lot where I come from!</i>

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If your job depends on high quality deliverables in a timely manner, well, what's your time worth? How long would it take you to recoup the additional cost? For some of us, that may take forever, for others maybe only a few weeks (at which point the additional cost pays for itself quickly): only you can answer that for yourself. The ZD is not going to be the perfect camera -- there is no such thing. And perhaps I was a bit harsh: perhaps the 1DS is ideal for you, and if you need more then stitching works for you. If so, great, you've found your perfect match. But the implication that stitching is a real replacement for a larger format and the reflexive dismissal of what appears to be a very fine camera -- those I still find quite bizarre.

I'm not thinking about just zoom lenses, although they are nice. I am thinking about

stabilized lenses, TS lenses, fast normal lenses, and superwides!

 

Granted, Mamiya makes some lenses that are pretty wide, and some that are pretty fast,

but there are some large gaps.