"Made in Germany" vs "Made in Japan" stereotypes

Rant:

 

I've returned to this forum after a few years away. It's nice to see names that

I remember fondly, and I still find the information here to be second to none.

 

However, there is still a tone, an idea or assumption really, that stands out

clearer to my eyes now after being away and returning: the idea that Germans are

the gold standard of QC and manufacturing - somehow linked to an idea of anal

retentiveness.

 

I spent almost a year in Japan and came away with the impression that it was the

most organized, most intensely focused and "anal" place I've ever seen in my

days. I'd say that they broke the scale to a new level, 10 times higher

compared to my previous number 1, Swiss germans. And yet, the Japanese still

have maintained a cultural duality of old and new, imported and exported, fast

paced and almost backwards - try as we may in Europe, we just don't seem to have

the gumption of that small island.

 

Anyway, as applied to cameras and lenses, while there is certainly an impressive

legacy of developments and innovation from German manufacturers up to the 60's

or so, the innovations and speed of development from the AF era up to today is

squarely Japanese development (or application of technologies) and marketing.

 

I just needed to say something, because this notion of Germany (made in Germany)

being a grail, just really no longer squares with reality to me.

 

I admit that this has a little bit to do with my effort to decide between a new

Zeiss Ikon system or an M(x) and Solms glass.

It does not have to do with national identity...it is just what market segment they are

targeting. Voigtlander produces excellent lenses to a price. They have proved that they can

produce truly exceptional glass as well in that they produce the Zeiss Ikon lenses, as well

as some beauties of their own like the 35/1.2. Germany has a reputation for pinnacle

quality because that is what their main companies have focused on...their experience is in

trying to build the best lenses without great regard for price. The Japanese are certainly

capable of doing the same thing. An example of this would be lenses like the Nikon APO

EL-Nikkor series or some of Canon's top lenses like the 200/1.8 and so on. So while in

general I would say that Germany makes better lenses than Japan, I don't think it has

anything to do with the nations themselves (at least since the 70s), just what the

companies have geared themselves up to do. It is a natural consequence of the course of

20th century manufacturing. After WWII, America wanted Japan to be their source of cheap

manufacturing, in the case of cameras, as knock-offs of pre-war German cameras. They

also wanted to prop up West Germany by providing them with a market for their precision

goods so that they would remain a bulwark against the Eastern European communist

states. I am not saying it was all a consequence of America's post-war policy, but it

certainly did have a role in creating these German/Japanese quality stereotypes.

After buying cameras on EBay from the 70's, 80's and 90's I find many Japanese cameras were light sealed with cheap foam which is now a mess and needs to be replaced while the German cameras from the same era were made with tight enough tolerances so that no foam seals were necessary. My rant.

decide between a new Zeiss Ikon system or an M(x) and Solms glass.

 

I would do it the other way around and buy an M6 with zeiss glass.

 

MAS

I must say the only folks who can beat the Germans for quality are the Swiss, specifically

Alpa. Nothing is made like an Alpa.

The 'Made in Germany' vs 'Made in Japan' stereotype is "old-school" thinking and a collectors' mentality. IMHO, this stereotype will eventually die out completely. Ask any person under the age of thirty where the best things are made and the vast majority would say 'made in Japan'.

 

My M arsenal is complete, but if I were building my M-system today, it would be with a Leica body and Zeiss (ZM) lenses - and I just turned fifty. They match Leica quality at a third the price (made in Japan, where labor costs rival that of the Germans).

No doubt any first world country can manufacture quality precision instruments such as fine cameras, I agree with Charles Stobbs that many otherwise fine Japanese cameras made pre-1980 (the only ones i have ever used) fall down in the little things such as the sealing of the bodies and some mechanical aspects, of course this is the only way they could compete and win on a straight price basis and still be desirable to serious photographers. I have heard that the press and war photographers went to Nikon from Leica because although the quality was less in Nikon, the price was so much less that they could reasonably replace the bodies that were damaged used in difficult environments. This superiority of German made cameras is evident in their prices today on the used market. As always , the market is the final arbiter of value.

"After buying cameras on EBay from the 70's, 80's and 90's I find many Japanese cameras were light sealed with cheap foam which is now a mess and needs to be replaced while the German cameras from the same era were made with tight enough tolerances so that no foam seals were necessary" My

 

And in the case of some makes, notably the Olympus OM-1, foam was used surrounding the pentaprism. The foam is now disintegrating and the decomposition products corroding the silvering from the prisms.

My Leica R4 slr cameras from this era all used foam seals which returned to petroleum from whence thay came, as it were. Probably the other R series as well before the R8. Fortunately they are easy to replace.

 

Who knows where anything is made these days? A while back I remeber Ford being threatened with loss of their "Made in USA" status because so much of their vehicles were made offshore.

 

I would think that Japan needs not be ashamed of their quality these days. As well their engineering. I don't buy Leica because they were made here or there, but because I like them. Same with Sony.

<i>As always , the market is the final arbiter of value.</i><p>Then Cindy Sherman is a ten times better photographer than Cartier-Bresson, right?

I buy things that are mostly made in China, no problems at all. The value is exceptional. China is the new Japan. Maybe it has something to do with the culture of perfection that exists in these two countries, where it is inculcated from an early age.

 

Look at your computer, and most of the components are made in China.

 

Chinese stuff is first rate. No other country seems to be capable of completing at that level.

Vic.

 

I beg to differ. China is good at making lot's of things very quickly. But when they start putting lead paint in kids toys and putting cement mix in our multi vitamins I have an issue with that. China's capabilities are impreseive. But what we will do is often different from what we can do.

 

As for camera stuff, I would hope to never see a brand that I buy outsource it's build to China.

 

R Fred. I don't know if you had an opportunity to visit any factories in Japan during your stay, of if you've ever been in a Chinese factory. But you may be surprised at how many of the production tools/robots they use to make our stuff are actually made in Germany.

Orville Robertson wrote:

 

> I must say the only folks who can beat the Germans for quality are the Swiss, specifically Alpa. Nothing is made like an Alpa.

 

 

That may be true of the latest Alpa 12 medium format camera, but it certainly wasn't true of the 35mm Alpa SLRs. They were flaky and unreliable.

 

I love my Alpa 10d and its excellent lenses, especially the 50mm f/1.9 Kern Macro-Switar, but I am under no illusion about the reliability of the Alpa body.

"Chinese stuff is first rate. No other country seems to be capable of completing at that level."

 

LMFAO!

 

Ever heard of a Seagull TLR?

Perhaps it's my own bias, but my skepticism rises whenever I read a modern quality pronouncement, whether favorable or unfavorable, that begins with:

 

"The Japanese .... "

 

"The Germans ... "

 

"The Chinese ... "

 

"The Americans ... "

 

"The Vietnamese ... "

 

and so on.

 

Of course there are historic, and current, differences between and among the nations and their cultures. They're not all alike. And educational emphasis and corporate culture -- to the extent it is identifiable beyond trite, tired, and discredited stereotyping -- certainly has differed among nations.

 

But now ? I'm just not certain how many of the old bromides still apply. Maybe I'm naive ?

Hey Tony, only the shutters were unreliable, as is true of some other excquisitely made

cameras such as the early Contax rangefinders. The shutters in both cases were a bad

design. The quality of the manufacturing itself was impeccable. It goes to show that quality

is also metered by reliability. Leicas and Contaxes and Alpas were and are exceptionally well-

made, but none of them could take the pounding and work regardless like a Canon F1 or

Nikon F. Those were the real tanks.

"As always , the market is the final arbiter of value.

 

Then Cindy Sherman is a ten times better photographer than Cartier-Bresson, right?"

 

Heh-heh, ouch. Funny point. Well, maybe Cindy Sherman appeals to people with ten times as much money as people who like HCB.

Vic...you are entirely welcome to my pile of broken-down Chinese crap, most of it not inexpensive toys (from the likes of Mattel and Hasbro) that is collecting dust in my basement.

 

I've never seen such shoddy merchandise.

"I just needed to say something, because this notion of Germany (made in Germany) being a grail, just really no longer squares with reality to me."

 

Mercedes Benz, BMW, Porsche, Linhof, Leica, Schneider, Rodenstock --yes, the gold standard in certain industries.

<i>Well, maybe Cindy Sherman appeals to people with ten times as much money as people who like HCB.</i><p>But that isn't what he said. If that is true, it could be applied to anything, including cameras. And then the value statement is meaningless.

A Leica M has 3,000 parts in it and a Bessa has 600. No wonder the Leica feels denser and more solid. Having said that, there is no reason Japanese product cannot demonstrate amazing build quality. Anyone who has handled a Canon F-1 of any vintage, a Nikon F, or a Nikon F2 knows build quality of Leica caliber. The silky smooth film winding, brass construction and exquisite black paint finish of the original F-1 make it one of the most beautiful and solid cameras ever built in my opinion.

 

I think Japanese manufacturers switched gears in the '80's and started manufacturing to price competitive standards rather than shooting for perfection, and that was an economic choice, NOT for lack of design and manufacturing ability.

 

I just bought a Zeiss 28mm Biogon ZM, made in Japan, but built by Cosina to a Zeiss design and to manufacturing tolerances and QC spec'd by Zeiss. The build quality is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't say it is up to the build quality of Leica chrome and titanium lenses, but it's up to the build quality of Leica black lenses. Again, there is no lack of ability in Japan ... build quality is a function of economics, and (most of the time) you get what you pay for.

<p><i>Well, maybe Cindy Sherman appeals to people with ten times as much money as

people who like HCB.</i></p>

 

<p>Wrong answer. Cindy Sherman is a ten times more <i>important artist</i> than HCB,

not a ten times better photographer, and definitely not a more "appealing" photographer.

The keywords are "artist" and "important". Important art is expensive because art market is

very smart. The prices on art often do reflect the actual artistic <i>importance</i> as

placed by critics, curators, art historians, writers, etc. (this "importance" is not to be

confused with "merit").</p>

Andre and Bob, It is amusing to note that neither of you, and the vast majority of critics of Chinese goods, NEVER fault the American management or the American quality inspectors of the American companies who buy these products to sell to you. Where the quality control is high, Chinese goods are the best value. It's got nothing to do with China, but with the broken value chain. As I said before, your computer components are mostly made in China, and I don't hear any whining about that at all. Are there any Made in Germany/Switzerland computers? Not knocking these fine countries, but reality is here, and it is the era of China.

<p>Slightly off-topic: Just wanted to share something from a June 2007 <a

href="http://www.bikemagazine.co.uk/">Bike magazine</a> article about a trip to the

Suzuki factory in Japan.</p>

 

<p><i>The second lasting impression is how hard everyone works - the production line is

relentless and the workers move with far greater speed and purpose than their Triumph or

BMW equivalents. They don't look unhappy but there isn't as much banter as you'd find at

Hinckley or Berlin (we've seen both). But there's a stronger sense of pride - everyone cares

very deeply that the job they do is the best it can possibly be.</i></p>

Computer components made in China ? Come on, they are made in Taiwan, it's different.

When a big company like Nikon, Canon, Philips or whatever build something in China, they will not take the risk to have it cheaply build. Where it is made nowadays doesn't matter, the quality control is the same

No, China isn't the new Japan. Good quality and high tech stuffs made in China so far are designed somewhere else, usually Taiwan (especially cell phones ipod etc) and Japan.