b_n_f Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Rant: I've returned to this forum after a few years away. It's nice to see names thatI remember fondly, and I still find the information here to be second to none. However, there is still a tone, an idea or assumption really, that stands outclearer to my eyes now after being away and returning: the idea that Germans arethe gold standard of QC and manufacturing - somehow linked to an idea of analretentiveness. I spent almost a year in Japan and came away with the impression that it was themost organized, most intensely focused and "anal" place I've ever seen in mydays. I'd say that they broke the scale to a new level, 10 times highercompared to my previous number 1, Swiss germans. And yet, the Japanese stillhave maintained a cultural duality of old and new, imported and exported, fastpaced and almost backwards - try as we may in Europe, we just don't seem to havethe gumption of that small island. Anyway, as applied to cameras and lenses, while there is certainly an impressivelegacy of developments and innovation from German manufacturers up to the 60'sor so, the innovations and speed of development from the AF era up to today issquarely Japanese development (or application of technologies) and marketing. I just needed to say something, because this notion of Germany (made in Germany)being a grail, just really no longer squares with reality to me. I admit that this has a little bit to do with my effort to decide between a newZeiss Ikon system or an M(x) and Solms glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_richardson Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 It does not have to do with national identity...it is just what market segment they are targeting. Voigtlander produces excellent lenses to a price. They have proved that they can produce truly exceptional glass as well in that they produce the Zeiss Ikon lenses, as well as some beauties of their own like the 35/1.2. Germany has a reputation for pinnacle quality because that is what their main companies have focused on...their experience is in trying to build the best lenses without great regard for price. The Japanese are certainly capable of doing the same thing. An example of this would be lenses like the Nikon APO EL-Nikkor series or some of Canon's top lenses like the 200/1.8 and so on. So while in general I would say that Germany makes better lenses than Japan, I don't think it has anything to do with the nations themselves (at least since the 70s), just what the companies have geared themselves up to do. It is a natural consequence of the course of 20th century manufacturing. After WWII, America wanted Japan to be their source of cheap manufacturing, in the case of cameras, as knock-offs of pre-war German cameras. They also wanted to prop up West Germany by providing them with a market for their precision goods so that they would remain a bulwark against the Eastern European communist states. I am not saying it was all a consequence of America's post-war policy, but it certainly did have a role in creating these German/Japanese quality stereotypes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles_stobbs3 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 After buying cameras on EBay from the 70's, 80's and 90's I find many Japanese cameras were light sealed with cheap foam which is now a mess and needs to be replaced while the German cameras from the same era were made with tight enough tolerances so that no foam seals were necessary. My rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_a._shapiro Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 decide between a new Zeiss Ikon system or an M(x) and Solms glass. I would do it the other way around and buy an M6 with zeiss glass. MAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orvillerobertson Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I must say the only folks who can beat the Germans for quality are the Swiss, specifically Alpa. Nothing is made like an Alpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Blackwell Images Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 The 'Made in Germany' vs 'Made in Japan' stereotype is "old-school" thinking and a collectors' mentality. IMHO, this stereotype will eventually die out completely. Ask any person under the age of thirty where the best things are made and the vast majority would say 'made in Japan'. My M arsenal is complete, but if I were building my M-system today, it would be with a Leica body and Zeiss (ZM) lenses - and I just turned fifty. They match Leica quality at a third the price (made in Japan, where labor costs rival that of the Germans). “When you come to a fork in the road, take it ...” – Yogi Berra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_gillespie Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 No doubt any first world country can manufacture quality precision instruments such as fine cameras, I agree with Charles Stobbs that many otherwise fine Japanese cameras made pre-1980 (the only ones i have ever used) fall down in the little things such as the sealing of the bodies and some mechanical aspects, of course this is the only way they could compete and win on a straight price basis and still be desirable to serious photographers. I have heard that the press and war photographers went to Nikon from Leica because although the quality was less in Nikon, the price was so much less that they could reasonably replace the bodies that were damaged used in difficult environments. This superiority of German made cameras is evident in their prices today on the used market. As always , the market is the final arbiter of value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendell_kelly Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 "After buying cameras on EBay from the 70's, 80's and 90's I find many Japanese cameras were light sealed with cheap foam which is now a mess and needs to be replaced while the German cameras from the same era were made with tight enough tolerances so that no foam seals were necessary" My And in the case of some makes, notably the Olympus OM-1, foam was used surrounding the pentaprism. The foam is now disintegrating and the decomposition products corroding the silvering from the prisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmar001 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 My Leica R4 slr cameras from this era all used foam seals which returned to petroleum from whence thay came, as it were. Probably the other R series as well before the R8. Fortunately they are easy to replace. Who knows where anything is made these days? A while back I remeber Ford being threatened with loss of their "Made in USA" status because so much of their vehicles were made offshore. I would think that Japan needs not be ashamed of their quality these days. As well their engineering. I don't buy Leica because they were made here or there, but because I like them. Same with Sony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 <i>As always , the market is the final arbiter of value.</i><p>Then Cindy Sherman is a ten times better photographer than Cartier-Bresson, right? Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I buy things that are mostly made in China, no problems at all. The value is exceptional. China is the new Japan. Maybe it has something to do with the culture of perfection that exists in these two countries, where it is inculcated from an early age. Look at your computer, and most of the components are made in China. Chinese stuff is first rate. No other country seems to be capable of completing at that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_osullivan Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Vic. I beg to differ. China is good at making lot's of things very quickly. But when they start putting lead paint in kids toys and putting cement mix in our multi vitamins I have an issue with that. China's capabilities are impreseive. But what we will do is often different from what we can do. As for camera stuff, I would hope to never see a brand that I buy outsource it's build to China. R Fred. I don't know if you had an opportunity to visit any factories in Japan during your stay, of if you've ever been in a Chinese factory. But you may be surprised at how many of the production tools/robots they use to make our stuff are actually made in Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
len_smith Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Orville Robertson wrote: > I must say the only folks who can beat the Germans for quality are the Swiss, specifically Alpa. Nothing is made like an Alpa. That may be true of the latest Alpa 12 medium format camera, but it certainly wasn't true of the 35mm Alpa SLRs. They were flaky and unreliable. I love my Alpa 10d and its excellent lenses, especially the 50mm f/1.9 Kern Macro-Switar, but I am under no illusion about the reliability of the Alpa body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeaster Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 "Chinese stuff is first rate. No other country seems to be capable of completing at that level." LMFAO! Ever heard of a Seagull TLR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael s. Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Perhaps it's my own bias, but my skepticism rises whenever I read a modern quality pronouncement, whether favorable or unfavorable, that begins with: "The Japanese .... " "The Germans ... " "The Chinese ... " "The Americans ... " "The Vietnamese ... " and so on. Of course there are historic, and current, differences between and among the nations and their cultures. They're not all alike. And educational emphasis and corporate culture -- to the extent it is identifiable beyond trite, tired, and discredited stereotyping -- certainly has differed among nations. But now ? I'm just not certain how many of the old bromides still apply. Maybe I'm naive ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orvillerobertson Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Hey Tony, only the shutters were unreliable, as is true of some other excquisitely made cameras such as the early Contax rangefinders. The shutters in both cases were a bad design. The quality of the manufacturing itself was impeccable. It goes to show that quality is also metered by reliability. Leicas and Contaxes and Alpas were and are exceptionally well- made, but none of them could take the pounding and work regardless like a Canon F1 or Nikon F. Those were the real tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt_evers Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 "As always , the market is the final arbiter of value. Then Cindy Sherman is a ten times better photographer than Cartier-Bresson, right?" Heh-heh, ouch. Funny point. Well, maybe Cindy Sherman appeals to people with ten times as much money as people who like HCB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtodrick Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Vic...you are entirely welcome to my pile of broken-down Chinese crap, most of it not inexpensive toys (from the likes of Mattel and Hasbro) that is collecting dust in my basement. I've never seen such shoddy merchandise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35mmdelux Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 "I just needed to say something, because this notion of Germany (made in Germany) being a grail, just really no longer squares with reality to me." Mercedes Benz, BMW, Porsche, Linhof, Leica, Schneider, Rodenstock --yes, the gold standard in certain industries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 <i>Well, maybe Cindy Sherman appeals to people with ten times as much money as people who like HCB.</i><p>But that isn't what he said. If that is true, it could be applied to anything, including cameras. And then the value statement is meaningless. Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frederick_muller Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 A Leica M has 3,000 parts in it and a Bessa has 600. No wonder the Leica feels denser and more solid. Having said that, there is no reason Japanese product cannot demonstrate amazing build quality. Anyone who has handled a Canon F-1 of any vintage, a Nikon F, or a Nikon F2 knows build quality of Leica caliber. The silky smooth film winding, brass construction and exquisite black paint finish of the original F-1 make it one of the most beautiful and solid cameras ever built in my opinion. I think Japanese manufacturers switched gears in the '80's and started manufacturing to price competitive standards rather than shooting for perfection, and that was an economic choice, NOT for lack of design and manufacturing ability. I just bought a Zeiss 28mm Biogon ZM, made in Japan, but built by Cosina to a Zeiss design and to manufacturing tolerances and QC spec'd by Zeiss. The build quality is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't say it is up to the build quality of Leica chrome and titanium lenses, but it's up to the build quality of Leica black lenses. Again, there is no lack of ability in Japan ... build quality is a function of economics, and (most of the time) you get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene_scherba Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 <p><i>Well, maybe Cindy Sherman appeals to people with ten times as much money as people who like HCB.</i></p> <p>Wrong answer. Cindy Sherman is a ten times more <i>important artist</i> than HCB, not a ten times better photographer, and definitely not a more "appealing" photographer. The keywords are "artist" and "important". Important art is expensive because art market is very smart. The prices on art often do reflect the actual artistic <i>importance</i> as placed by critics, curators, art historians, writers, etc. (this "importance" is not to be confused with "merit").</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Andre and Bob, It is amusing to note that neither of you, and the vast majority of critics of Chinese goods, NEVER fault the American management or the American quality inspectors of the American companies who buy these products to sell to you. Where the quality control is high, Chinese goods are the best value. It's got nothing to do with China, but with the broken value chain. As I said before, your computer components are mostly made in China, and I don't hear any whining about that at all. Are there any Made in Germany/Switzerland computers? Not knocking these fine countries, but reality is here, and it is the era of China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinteo Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 <p>Slightly off-topic: Just wanted to share something from a June 2007 <a href="http://www.bikemagazine.co.uk/">Bike magazine</a> article about a trip to the Suzuki factory in Japan.</p> <p><i>The second lasting impression is how hard everyone works - the production line is relentless and the workers move with far greater speed and purpose than their Triumph or BMW equivalents. They don't look unhappy but there isn't as much banter as you'd find at Hinckley or Berlin (we've seen both). But there's a stronger sense of pride - everyone cares very deeply that the job they do is the best it can possibly be.</i></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann1 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Computer components made in China ? Come on, they are made in Taiwan, it's different. When a big company like Nikon, Canon, Philips or whatever build something in China, they will not take the risk to have it cheaply build. Where it is made nowadays doesn't matter, the quality control is the same No, China isn't the new Japan. Good quality and high tech stuffs made in China so far are designed somewhere else, usually Taiwan (especially cell phones ipod etc) and Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now