david_craig2 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 How durable/scratch resistant is the Titanium finish on the first series M6 bodies/lenses? I have been told that it can be removed with a pencil eraser? Blimey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_pelizza_salusso_di_vol Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 More or less that is true. I have seen a scratched M6 titatium no more than a few days ago. It was terrific: to pay 500 Euros more on a used and scratched M6 just because titanium! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diego_k. Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 My G2 is supposed to be titanium as well, but has a really nice big scratch on the back door........ go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Owners of the PowerBook G4 Titanium, which was advertized for its rugged, space-age Ti shell, began complaining almost immediately about how easily the titanium could be scratched. My Ti G4 has very few marks after two years but I really, really baby it. Moral don't get sold on the idea of Titanium = rugged. It's just another marketing scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david11 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Titanium is 1/2 the weight of steel and twice as strong; but, it will still scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 What marketing twonk comes up with all these crazy finishes? Black paint, lacquer, snake, titanium, gold etc.. I can sort of understand the logic behind a camera that is made from titanium for strength and resilience and if the camera ONLY comes in that material (Contax T3 for example) then there is no choice. But given a choice then why not go for the normal tried and tested 'cooking' version? The reason your Titanium will rub off with a pencil eraser is that it was never meant to be used. It was meant to be put in a glass case, resting elegantly in a satin lined presentation box (coffin) alongside your Lemur skin and depleted uranium M6 'Special' and your Emerald and Platignum Hassy and Urushi(?) Rollei 35SE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick_jelliffe Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 The M6 Titanium has a plated surface--the shell is not milled from a block of Ti. I've always heard it has the best wear characteristics of any M. There are several grades of titanium available commercially. CP, or commericially pure, is the softest and most easily formed and machined, (and has the lowest fatigue life). I would suspect that the ibook case is fabricated from CP. 3/2.5, (3% Aluminum, 2.5% Vanadium was one of the first alloys available, and revolutionized the applications of titanium in the aerospace energy because of the increased fatigue life. 6/4 is the hardest of the three, has the greatest fatigue life, almost infinite if proper cleaning and welding techniques are followed. 6/4 is pretty scratch resistant, but the Ti alloys "work harden", meaning as you machine them, any area that has been touched with a cutter or bit, becomes so hard, that if a second pass is required, you might as well start over. What is wonderful about solid titanium, like stainless, is that a scratch can be buffed out using fine sandpaper or polishing compound, and there is no danger of wearing through a thin plating. The Hexar RF has top and bottom plates made of stamped Ti. As they are relatively thin in height, this application is an excellent use of the metal. The deeper top plate of the Leica M would make a Ti stamping difficult, and Leica is now machining the brass top plates for the MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I'm confused. Here are people complaining because they spent an extra $500 on an M6 and the finish comes off, while others pay $500 extra for an M6 *because* the finish comes off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_craig1 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 So am I - if the finish is as poor as suggested I'm surprised that Leitz didn't withdraw it - never mind issue a second series of Titanium cameras! But thanks to everyone for their comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_chu2 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Although the inner workings of a titanium M6 is the same as all other M6's, the top plate is made of brass instead of zinc. The titanium finish is obtained not by plating but by the actual incorporation of titanium into the brass to the depth of several microns. Given that information, the titanium finish is vulnerable to dings and scratches but, in my experience, more resistant to bright marks. I have a ti M6 which has been in service for nearly 10 years. It has minute dings and it has bright marks--but you really have to look closely, all the while, moving the surface relative to the light source, to find the marks. They are inapparent and difficult to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david k. Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Almost everone is way off the mark here, the M6 Titanium, has a brass top plate, that is coated with Titanium Nitrite (TiN). All of the other metal surface are also coated with TiN.Titanium Nitrite is probable one of the best wearing surfaces known to man, and is widely used in the aerospace industry on high wear surfaces. You will also see TiN at your local hardware store on various cutting tools, again because of it's exceptional wear properties. The fact that someone at Leica did some homework on the this finish, and convinced marketing that it was a good idea, has been negated by people who think that it is another collector's piece. Yes, the finish will dent (it is only brass underneath) however, anyone who thinks that it is just Titanium and it doesn't wear very well, is simply misinformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_ting2 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I agree with you David. Apart from the "look" factor, Leica's M titanium is the most practical and durable finish compared with their "black paint", "black chrome" or just chrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterg Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I own an M6 Titanium classic. I've used it regulary for two years and I'm not its first owner. To me, its finish looks brand new and shows no sign of any scratches or rub marks. The titanium is not painted on and I seriously doubt any of the finish would come off with an eraser, anymore than it does when I rub off fingerprints, rainwater, or anything else that might spill on it. I find the titanium finish to be the most durable and aesthetically pleasing of any I've seen or owned. If you're looking for someone to agree that the titanium finish is just an excuse to charge more, but adds nothing to the durability of the camera, don't ask someone who owns a titanium M6. I love mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_craig2 Posted May 3, 2003 Author Share Posted May 3, 2003 Again, many many thanks to all of you for your very helpful comments -I was beginning to think that I had be hoodwinked into buying a 'pup'! If anyone can point me to a more detailed description of the TiN coating process used by Leica I would be very interested to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_ting2 Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 I heard that its not a plating process, but rather applied on the surface like spray-painting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfblues Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 This I trust this will put to rest once and for all the question as to how Leica applies titanium to it's various metal surfaces. The bulk of the comments above are questionable, i.e. it can be rubbed off with an eraser is highly suspect, unless the eraser has powdered diamond filings as it's main material, which would sure play havoc when used to erase some writing on a piece of paper, which it was designed to do. Anyone who takes an eraser to a 2500. Camera body to begin with should probably seek a twelve step program to over come the urge to destroy expensive items... The titanium coating process indeed starts with brass components, it is then nickel-plated and bombarded with titanium ions using "sputtering," a high tech vacuum process. This results in an extremely hard, even and dull-bright champagne colored titanium surfaces, which should prove to be a far more durable finish then the black chrome or black lacquer surfaces which predominate the market place. For those of you who for whatever reason seek pleasure in dispensing erroneous information to make others feel they were cheated at the cash register for purchasing the titanium version of the M6, it's time to move on to claim that the new MP is being made from old M3 parts that Leica had laying around from the fifties, which should keep you busy till the next Leica appears� In the mean time, consider taking your plastic Japanese camera's and loading some film in them and actually make some images, just as serious Leica users have been doing for the last 75+ years, with a camera that has it's roots in the first quarter of the last century, and has been used by serious practitioners of the art because of it's solid construction which inspires confidence and a sense of pride of ownership, whether in your hand or under glass, Leica's prove that form follows function and is at home in the field or as an objet d'art. Why do I use M Leica's, that's simple, it's unobtrusive, fast handling and when you push the shutter release it records the image in about 9MS, not 60 to 250MS as most SLR's do. Then thrown in for good measure are some of the best lenses in the world which attach to it. Granted it's not cheap, but if you really want one on a budget, eBay or Photo.net offer used Leica's at half the new prices. Granted there of little use for photog's shooting sports or other fast action, but for those of us who have need of it's unique capabilities, nothing else will do... Then that's just my humble opinion... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Well said Ron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTC Photography Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Titanium camera is not scratch proof I have a silver color Contax T, it has clear scratch marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Nitrite That's "nitride," a substance harder than carborundum. Pencil erasers contain an abrasive, such as pumice (volcanic glass), but TIN should be harder. TIN coatings are very thin, and its resistance to scratches will depend on the hardness of the substrate. Why do I use M Leica's, that's simple, it's unobtrusive, fast handling and when you push the shutter release it records the image in about 9MS, not 60 to 250MS as most SLR's do. Depending on the model, the shutter lag of a Leica M is on the order of 12 msec. A Sony A7 has a lag of about 20 msec, and a DSLR ranges from about 25 msec to 60 msec. Some cameras have a noticeable break point in the shutter release, but Leica M (including digital in the "soft" mode), and Nikons from the F3 onward, are very smooth. The release occurs before the button reaches the end of its travel. A digital M defaults to a two-stage release, shortened to one stage in the "soft" mode. It also defaults to instant rewind of the shutter, but that is delayed in the "quiet" mode until you actually release the button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stric Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 I have red somewhere that Leica has indeed made M film-camera(s) from Titanium for some very rich client (I believe somewhere from the Gulf region of the Middle East). Titanium was harder to work with than brass and Aluminum and it required special tooling. Aside from the body, lenses were also made out of Titanium for this customer. All in all, one of a kind, kind of deal. I wonder how much it cost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allancobb Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 I've been meaning to respond to this thread for quite some time and I'm now finally getting around it. I have a VERY well-worn example of a "user-condition" titanium M6 classic that illustrates what years of truly hard use eventually does to the finish. It's provenance is known, having been bought new in London in 1994 and used relentlessly by a famous world-travelling photojournalist until it was eventually sold to me on consignment in a DC shop in 2012 (the PJ went digital). Considering this is titanium (and the words "titanium" and "user" are rarely used in the same sentence), I can't imagine what this camera would have looked like had it been standard black or silver! It's sure not pretty, but it works flawlessly. The 50/2.8 Elmar-M lens didn't come with the body by the way, I purchased that later on. Cheers, Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allancobb Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 P.S. I actually tried rubbing a pencil eraser on the finish; the finish is still intact, but the eraser helped clean it up a little! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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