Losing customers because everyone wants the images

<p>We have a quite a few local photographers and tons more of fly by night photographers using very stock equipment. Seems I am losing quite a bit of business to these people who really could care less about their work and just looking for the quick payout and here is your disc with your wedding pictures enjoy type of deal.<br>

<br />My prices are descent for this area and it seems quite a few brides in my area don't think a photographer is that important to whole wedding ceremony and never budget properly for one. I mean just the other day I get an email of a brde who wanted to do a portrait session right after her wedding because it was cheaper. I turned it down.<br>

<br />So back to problems, sorry if I got a little side tracked. So in the past couple months I have given out several quotes and met with several brides so my advertising is working and I am getting calls and I realize people will shop photographers and I am not against that. However usually you hear in a face to face meeting with a bride when they ask and lately they always do. "So you just give us the images and we print it ourselves right?" So then I go into my speech about the quality of the lab work of who does my photos and that its better than walmart. Then I tell them I don't give out my digital pictures and thats an extra fee of $60.00 per photo which you get a discount the more you order or the entire set for an extra $1000.00. Usually you hear the tone in the brides voice and at that point you lost them. I explain to them that the reason I do this is how I set up my business model and that I put a value on my photos I take and that I am not just going to give up my work like other fly by night photographers like off of craigslist who advertise weddings with all photos for $150 bucks. I have talked and seen some of these people out there and they don't even have the proper equipment to shoot a wedding. So I know the brides aren't getting phenomenal pictures. The biggest issue is there are so many around and the prices they offer are dirt cheap.<br>

<br />Then the email quotes after I mention that I don't have a print your own package. I never hear from them again but no other pros in my area do print your own without having to paying extra and they are in a similiar boat as I am.<br>

<br />I have talked to other friends of mine who live in other states who are photographers and they always tell me my prices are too low and people are getting a lot for what I offer in compared to my area. A friend in CA said I would be doing 2-3 wedding every weekend if I charged that price in California.<br>

<br />I have considered doing a contract photographer approach and charge a flat fee and the pictures are yours for $350.00 a hour. I have also considered testing a digital portrait package which comes with 25 edited photos for $350.00 with a one hour session to try to drum up business. Those are my current considerations and other than that I would apprecaite other ideas or other ways to say to brides I don't give away my photos. All my packages include prints and they get quite a bit lab quality prints for the money they are spending.<br>

<br />I do pride myself in my photography and my pictures and I put a value on these things and I was taught by another photographer to never under value your work because if you do other people will see that also. So any adivce out there on any of what I mention but in my mind I feel the deal killers with these weddings and ever some portrait sessions is that I don't include the digital cd and I make sure to mention that the proof cds are low quality and watermarked and the reason for this is I had a bride tell me a few years ago that she couldn't see the pictures properly with my watermarks, and they are really light and it was obvious to me she was going to try to print her own.<br>

Thanks in advance,<br />Lisa</p>

<p>The market is driving the business, the business is not driving the market. You have to adapt. Digital has radically changed the dimension of the business.</p>

<p>Prior to digital it was necessary to have an expensive darkroom and significant skill in manipulating the images for the desired result. With film results were not known until the film was developed putting pressure on the person doing the exposure. Cameras were entirely manual with gradual adaption of some automation in exposure. But still significant skill was required. ISO 400 was high speed.</p>

<p>Then digital arrived with incredible intelligence in the cameras. ISO 100 became the minimum with ISO 800 being very good. The intelligence within the cameras really helped with the exposure automation and in particular proper white balance.</p>

<p>Now for less than $100.00 someone could have software on their computer to allow them to manipulate those images, remove flaws, adjust color, spot tweaks and even add fancy features. The world of the darkroom that would have cost hundreds of thousands (and sometimes be impossible) is now available to almost anyone.</p>

<p>People want the ability to email the images, post them on Facebook and other social sites. They understand how to do that with digital images and loathe having to use scanners.</p>

<p>These people are also used to cell phone images so anything that looks better than cell phone images look good to them. Any current digital SLR can exceed the cell phone image by a large margin and many P&S cameras are also capable of very good images.</p>

<p>I used to not release any negatives for printing when I did film. People did not want to deal with film negatives anyway as cropping and modification was impossible. It was also a hassle to keep up with the files and preserve the negatives. When I went digital copyright hassles from scanners and other such issues were more trouble than it was worth.</p>

<p>So I adapted. I no longer produce any prints, books or other such items from weddings. I provide a DVD with full resolution images (JPG) and be done with it. I price myself accordingly so that the net income is still the same as I received from film and reprints. But I have eliminated the hassles of keeping track of the images and fighting copyright issues.</p>

<p>Digital has changed the photography world, forever. And that is my opinion.</p>

<p>Lisa -</p>

<p>Fortunately or un-fortunately - this are the times we live in...</p>

<p>Digitial has really let the genie out of the bottle so to speak and there's no way to put it back in. Years ago - it was unheard of to even think about asking or demanding your images from your wedding or even from a studio portrait session. Now it is literally part of the expectations.</p>

<p>Only you can decide which business model works for you - We can't make that choice for you. In the end it comes down to this:</p>

<p>Are you keeping busy and able to get enough bookings to make ends meet with your current model? My take on it is that you're not - otherwise I don't know if you would have asked the question. If you're not as busy as you'd like to be and are sitting at home, without a wedding booked on a weekend you could have had booked - then you need to change the model to get the customer.</p>

<p>Personally - I made the choice when I started to provide a DVD of the images and a print release to each couple, with a package purchase. Couples that did a pay be the hour did not get that option and the DVD was an add on. On average - I still get 4 - 5 decent print sales per wedding - because they either are too busy, don't want to be a burden on the bride / groom or because they just want to be nice - but whatever the reason - I still get print sales.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

Please forgive me in advance for being a little harsh. I happen to disagree with alot of what you said.

 

First of all, there is a whole world of different kinds of people out there that require different levels of photographic services at, and after, their wedding. For a growing number of people, that requirement is that you can work for under $1000 (or even less), and that you deliver an adequate set of digital images of a minimal quality level, and then you leave them alone. There are THOUSANDS of these people, and it is a HUGE portion of the market. The only photographers that will win their business are the ones that can offer a package that caters to their needs. In Idaho, remember, there's not alot of money, and some of these couples just can't budget any more money for photography. You can't blame these people for being young and poor and not having alot of monetary support from the Grandparents. These people don't always require a certain style, or even post production work...at all. They just want some competent photos they can share with their friends on Facebook when it's all said and done. I'm not saying you should do only this kind of work, but there is only so much business in the $3000+ range of customers. If you can't win enough of those clientelle to keep you afloat, then you might split the business into two segments. In one, you charge appropriately for full days of post processing and meticulous prints. In another segment, you charge for a half-day of shooting and a churn-and-burn CD of digitals. Finally, if you deliver a CD, don't watermark the photos. That just ruins everyone's day.

<p>You have identified the problem, only you don't like the solution. The marketplace has changed (with change being the only constant). I suppose my question would be is how much do you normally make on print sales after the wedding? Then add this to the price of your packages and include the disc. However you proceed, it is all about perceived value. Either include the disc or make yourself otherwise valuable. By that I mean that weddings, for the most part, are relatively the same event. It is <em>your</em> vision of the wedding day that matters: what <em>you</em> see, how <em>you</em> see it, how <em>you</em> capture it. Of course nothing says you can't do both. In the end, just remember, no margin, no mission. :)</p>

<p>David,<br />The main reason I asked this question was wondering if everyone else is getting the same question of the digital prints asked to them. I do have enough weddings and portraits sessions booked and I am keeping busy but I have had more than my share of the can I get digital images with my package questions in the last couple months. <br />Let me ask you for say a wedding do you touch up every image for the client? Providing 200+ touched up photos is a lot of work. I usually only retouch the photos that the client actually buy for what they want printed. So on your model you give them a print release that allows them to print as many images as they want? I do provide clients with the options of low resolution photos for facebook and social networking sites and the price is really fair.<br>

To the person who said not to watermark the photos on the proof disc. I do not anymore I use flip album pro thats both mac and pc compatible and I create a nice digital photo album and I protect the images with the software from being copied.</p>

<p>Lisa,</p>

<p>I do have a few insights. I will give you a brief background on what I do so that you can hopefully understand where I'm coming from.</p>

<p>I'm a Sales and Product Specialist at an Independent Auto Dealer, (Read: car salesman). I sell New Subarus and a variety of pre-owned vehicles. I deal with price shoppers every day. There's a dealership eight miles down the road that sells the exact same products that I do... or do they?</p>

<p>When someone comes in and says, "give me the best price...I'm going down the road to get their price once I get yours," I tell them that I'd be happy to and then I work them into the sales process our dealership uses. Seven times out of ten the person leaves with a car, not a price. </p>

<p>Here's why:</p>

<p>Where the dealership down the road will probably give them a ridiculously low price and let them walk, I take the time to build value in myself, the dealership, and the car that person wants to drive. <br>

I don't put down the other dealership...in fact I'll tell the customer that if all that they're looking for is the best price that they should probably just buy down the road...the product they sell on the outside of the building is exactly the same, but what they get inside the building is probably not...<br>

In other words, what I will give you before, during, and after the sale is more than enough to justify paying more to buy the exactly the same product from me.</p>

<p>Photography is the same... sort of...<br>

People think they're getting exactly the same thing from craigslist guy as they are from a seasoned pro. You need to justify what you charge for a wedding and why you charge it. If you can't do this, you are charging too much. Basically, you need to make people understand that you are the best <strong><em>value</em></strong> out there. If you can't, you need to figure out why...</p>

<p>I don't know your business model, but if you rely on print sales to make a profit and your recent clientèle wants to print their own, perhaps you should consider this trend and build a package that includes digital files.</p>

<p>The best businesses out there have the flexibility to change with the times. If you do the same thing you've been doing for years, you will not get the same results...you will get less. In todays marketplace the businesses that can accurately predict and adapt to the ever changing consumer landscape are the ones that will thrive.</p>

<p>Hope there's something in this post that helps you out.<br>

RS</p>

 

<p>Maybe you need to rethink your business plan. If you can offer better images than the rest in your market, give the customers what they want at a reasonable price, you should have plenty of business. Now if all they are looking for is the lowest price and don't care about the images, you most likely won't get those people because if someone comes along and says $50 is their price... you can't compete with that. You have got to learn to get to the heart of their most important needs, wants and desires. If lowest price is what they make their decision on, you will not win their business. If they like what you do, get what they want from you and at a price they feel is worth it, then you should get the client. It's common sense business.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I do provide clients with the options of low resolution photos for facebook and social networking sites and the price is really fair.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Fair in who's opinion? If brides aren't booking because of your pricing and policies, then you might need to rethink that statement.</p>

<p>The wedding photography world is changing just as the desktop publishing world once changed with the advent of graphic design software and the web-design world changed with the advent of WYSIWYG html editors. Sure, there will always be people who (either because of location, marketing, or skill) do not have to change. But you may or may not be one of those people. What flies in Big City, California might not fly in Little Town, Ohio.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, you can't force the market to be what you want. You can refuse to work below a specific price point, but if the demand isn't there you are just going to end up with an empty booking calendar. If brides think that what you are offering isn't worth paying for, then they aren't going to pay for it if they have other options. You can try to find new markets and marketing techniques to reach a different level of customers who still value what you are offering or you can modify your pricing to get the customers you are now losing. But there a level of "this is the way the world is today" that you'll have to accept no matter what. High quality digital cameras are available to most everyone these days. As are powerful computers, image editing programs, and printing options. As was said, the genie is out of the bottle and you can't put it back.</p>

<p>So those who offers digital images for your wedding packages. Do you re-touch every image? in say a 400+ picture wedding? Or do you tell them you will touch up a set amount of images and inlcude it in the package.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>So those who offers digital images for your wedding packages. Do you re-touch every image? in say a 400+ picture wedding? Or do you tell them you will touch up a set amount of images and inlcude it in the package.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Keeping in mind that I no longer do wedding photography, without a more specific description than the word "retouching", I'm not sure you are going to get many answers. What do you mean by retouching? Adjusting color balance? Adjusting exposure? Removing a zit from the brides nose? Removing drunk uncle fred from every photo?</p>

<p>Re-touching as in making the bride look her best like removing acne or drunk unlce fred from the background. <br>

The color balance and exposure and is something I do anyways with all the photos when processing my raw images.</p>

<p>Lisa,</p>

<p>When you provide proofs, do you provide every shot you took and let the B&G pick the ones they want?</p>

<p>If you do, then you will need to change your approach.</p>

<p>I shoot for friends/family...they consider it their wedding gift. The weddings I've done have been literally $2500-$5000 TOTAL COST, and most had very little monetary help from family...families provided other things for the wedding to keep costs down.</p>

<p>I provide 2 8x10 4 5x7 and a handful of 4x6... retouched and printed at a local shop. They have a profile for me that matches my system so I know exactly what I'm going to get.</p>

<p>Everything else I provide is digital.</p>

<p>Post for most of my shots usually is limited to:<br>

Good = crop/WB/color correct...all done in Lightroom.<br>

Bad = Backup, but don't import into lightroom.</p>

<p>I then pick no more than 25-30 of the best shots and do some other post stuff in PS for effects, but I do that to improve my skills. It gives the B&G something to show their friends that's "cool". The Disc that the B&G gets usually has 300 images on it, it only takes me a few hours to get done, and the B&G can print up to 8x12 without an issue.</p>

<p>I don't know what I would charge for such services... I don't have a photography business and have never built a business model to live off of my photography. Off the top of my head, in my area, this would be a $1500-$2000 package based on the quality I provide.</p>

<p>RS</p>

<p>With my kids photography packages I say retouching is basic "booger & bruise" removal. Anything more and you gotta pay extra. (Rarely happens though.)<br>

I would say that 75% of my customers go out of their way to complain about photographers who don't hand over files. The market has changed, people want their files, it's as simple as that. I have always given up the images, I charge a rate I'm happy with and hand them over for both kids shoots and weddings. They are happy and so am I. No dealing with them down the line, just a nice clean transaction.<br>

When all else fails, listen to your customers.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I cut out any photos that (even unretouched) I wouldn't be willing to give a client. I'm pretty aggressive killing photos because I only want to give her what is fantastic. (I have clients comment--how did you get this many photos and how did you get them all to turn out perfect.) I usually provide around 100 images per hour of coverage to the client. (These 100 images are all well exposed and sharply in focus--images that even with no retouching look fantastic). The bride gets all of these in high resolution to keep forever. From these unretouched (but excellent quality) proofs, she can select a handful to have retouched. Depending on the price of the package, I will retouch anywhere from 30 to 150 photos. My most popular package gives the client 50 digital retouches. All of my packages include midsize professional albums, because they sit on coffee tables and help to sell packages.</p>

<p>If you look at my previous posts, you'll recognize that I'm no friend to more experienced photographers who have trouble adjusting to market conditions, but this is a model that works for me and the young brides I work with. They keep recommending me, so I must be doing something right.</p>

<p>Young people want their files. While it upsets those who are accustomed to selling prints, clients view it as "hey, I hired you to shoot my photos--you work for me, and you don't get to hold my photos hostage." We can debate whether they should feel that way or whether you should give in, but you can't argue with the fact that people view the photos you take as "theirs" not "yours."</p>

<p>I gurantee a certain amount of photos and do let them choose them from the proofs. I mean there have been several pictures I have taken that I loved and the bride never picked them and I do give the brides prints of my favorites when I send them the proof cd on on 5 x 7's that I touch up.<br>

I think its wrong to pick out the best 30 pictures and say here you go I think these are best and your stuck with them. People all have different tastes and I like to give people a choice but I am not going to pick their pictures for them or re-tocuh (smooth skin, remove acne, etc) 200+ digital images.</p>

<p>I don't provide paper proofs. I do provide high resolution files with every gig. In the past, especially when I was film based, I could spend as much if not more time with re-print orders from each wedding as I did with doing another wedding. And my bottom line profit from re-prints is much lower than doing a wedding.</p>

<p>For an 8 hr. wedding I may spend, at most, 2 hrs. processing them on my computer. I work hard at getting it done correctly in-camera. Plus I've done a few weddings.</p>

<p>Now, I can either opt getting more weddings or enjoy the time off. At my stage of life I enjoy the time off.</p>

<p>Lisa,</p>

 

<p>You’re looking at this entirely backwards.</p>

 

<p>Figure out what your customers want. Give it to them. Set your prices in such a way that you make

your money from selling the customers what they want, not by low-balling them on a few things they need (like your time) and

making up for it in others they don’t want but you’re going to strong-arm them into buying anyway (like prints).</p>

 

<p>If your clients want you to retouch 200+ images, do so with a smile — and charge them $10

/ image, $100 / image, whatever it takes for you to put that smile on your face. Be sure to let them know exactly what they get for their $10, and why it’s worth that much to them. Also consider partnering with somebody to do the retouching, and either subcontract the work or refer your clients directly.</p>

 

<p>And don’t hesitate to use your experience and a bit of salesmanship to steer them in the

direction you’d go if it were your wedding. If they decide to not get any prints from you, for

example, include a complimentary 8″ × 10″ with the disc. When they get their

prints back from the local print-it-yourself kiosk and compare, they’ll either realize they really should

have had you do the prints, or they really won’t care about the quality and will be happy

to have saved all that money. If they then get prints from you, great; that’s an extra job

for you, and an easy one at that. If not, fine; you’ve already made your desired profit from

everything else you’ve sold them.</p>

 

<p>There’s also a bit of a balancing act. Choice is good, but too much choice is bad. Offer a few package deals, and have your price list handy to customize everything from there. But be sure to give your customers a starting point and to make it easy to get exactly what <em>they</em> want (not what <em>you</em> want them to want).</p>

 

<p>Cheers,</p>

 

<p>b&</p>

Your business model doesn't work for the people you are attracting.

<blockquote>

<p>clients view it as "hey, I hired you to shoot my photos--you work for me, and you don't get to hold my photos hostage." We can debate whether they should feel that way or whether you should give in, but you can't argue with the fact that people view the photos you take as "theirs" not "yours."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agreee with this. You are being hired to document the day, not creating art for yourself. I think the business needs to change so that you charge a realistic amount for your time in the same way that a plumber, carpenter or mechanic would then hand over all rights to the images to the customer.</p>

<p>I know this isn't a popular view but hard luck. The market is changing and you can either adapt to it and make money supplying what the customer wants or go out of business.</p>

<p>Lisa -</p>

<p>All of the image files I give to the client at the end are exposure and color corrected. Most are cropped to an appropriate size / composition. </p>

<p>On average I do some retouching on maybe 40-50 of the images - mostly the formals - but occassionally to remove Uncle Fred from the photo or something similar.</p>

<p>As others have stated - I try to get as much right in camera as possible - I haven't done as many wedding as Bill C has, but my goal is to the point where 95% of the retouch / adjustments are handled in camera.</p>

<p>Only once have I been asked by a bride to produce paper proofs for the couple. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>As far as retouching goes, I do several cycles. </p>

<ul>

<li>First run through cut out the junk photos that you wouldn't want anyone seeing, too soft a focus, etc, things light room and photoshop will not save you from. </li>

<li>Then depending on the consistency of the shoot do an overall whitebalance setting in light room, or just put it on auto during the import if there was a great deal of variablility in the shoot. </li>

<li>After that, run through them, and pick out your star images, that will make the bride and groom and anyone else who looks at them say WOW! This shouldn't be much more than 50 images. </li>

<li>Now really scrutinize them. Any blemish, a wrinkle of the skin on the back, a hair or two out of place (literally only a single hair), make sure the WB and exposure is exactly perfect, possibly provide them with a few color options BW, sepia, etc. Put these in a highlights folder on the disc. </li>

<li>Provide them the rest of the photos as well (aside from the junk you took out at first) </li>

<li>Say that at a price (per photo or by hour, I suggest by hour because if they want a pimple removed vs an exit sign or drunk uncle bob removed, makes a hell of a difference worth of editing time on your part), you can work on any of those other shots that they choose.</li>

</ul>

 

<p>Well I wanted to thank you for everyone's input and I will be discussing my business model with my business partner and see in redesigning things and make some digital freindly packages to adapt what the customers are looking for.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Let me ask you for say a wedding do you touch up every image for the client? Providing 200+ touched up photos is a lot of work. I usually only retouch the photos that the client actually buy for what they want printed.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>yes, for every wedding i touch up each of the 500+ images that i give to my clients. it is a lot of work, but no one said wedding photography was easy...ok..some people think it is but usually they suck at it.</p>

<p>It seems to me that hiring a photographer for a wedding is much like buying a car. As a client, you have very little experience doing it and you may only do it once. The photographer, like the used car salesman has a lot of experience, but do you trust them? You can't count on a client learning to be an intelligent buyer because he won't do it enough unless he or she is on their 5th spouse or something. So you have to somehow educate the client enough to cause them to make a good decision, which hopefully involves hiring you.</p>

<p>If you can't do that, they may use that $200 photographer on Craig's list. They may be ultimately unsatisfied, but that's not very much consolation to you. So the question is how can you demonstrate in maybe a short introduction meeting (or on your website) that they should spend a whole bunch more money to hire YOU to document their wedding?</p>

<p>I don't really know the answer to that -- presumably you "successful" wedding photographers do. For myself, I would be motivated by the quality of picture you showed me and the pictures on your website, and the chance to talk to previous customers. Even though I am an amateur photographer, I wouldn't be motivated to pay a great artist for their work (I can't afford to hire Leonardo DaVinci to do my ceilings) but I would want someone with a good eye that could document the event and do all the traditional shots. So I would want someone who demonstrated competence in doing this, demonstrated technical competence, had adequate equipment, and charged a fee that was didn't show them getting way more money than I make an hour.</p>

<p>So the first step I think would be to show the client your portfolio. The second would be to go through how much time you spend preparing for the wedding, how much time you spend shooting the wedding, how much time you typically spend in post processing, equipment costs, assistant costs, etc. and what you're making an hour once those costs are accounted for. The higher the fee, the more transparent I'd want him to be. This may be totally unrealistic, but if I'm going to pay thousands of dollars, I'd like to know I'm getting my moneys worth. A presentation that shows the client just what he or she gets from a professional rather than a craig's list photographer might go a long way to demonstrate that it is indeed worth it. And I'll echo the "give them what they want" such that if they want the digital pictures, find a way to include those for a reasonable fee.</p>

<p>Just my humble, uninformed, opinion. Good luck.</p>