Looks like the world of cinema is about to be shook up.

Discussion in 'Canon EOS' started by smooth_carrots, Nov 4, 2011.

  1. Smart thinking from Canon. Probably pricey though.
    Canon has also announced it’s developing a next-generation DSLR camera that’s equipped with a 35mm full-frame CMOS sensor and supports the recording of 4K video* (at a frame rate of 24P, with Motion-JPEG compression) for exceptional image quality that allows the creation of innovative and expressive images. Full details of this camera will be revealed on the CPN website when they become available.
    5D MkIII?
     
  2. If you actually read the announcement you just linked to, you'll see that it's not the 5D-whatever, but the C300. A new product. Already mentioned in other threads here.
     
  3. If you actually read the announcement you just linked to, you'll see that it's not the 5D-whatever, but the C300. A new product. Already mentioned in other threads here.​
    If you actually read my post (and the bottom of the article I linked to) you'll see that it's not the C300.
     
  4. Smooth Carrots is correct. It's not the C300. Matt should have read the link before asserting it was.
     
  5. I agree that it will be pricey, but it's exciting nonetheless. I read the article to the end. The new DSLR (not C300 cinema) is mentioned twice, including Smooth Carrots' excerpt. Just saying.
     
  6. "In development" could mean almost anything for release dates - I'm not sure how Canon performs against those statements but I'm not holding my breath, yet.
     
  7. I think in part what we're seeing is that Canon is trying to provide a roadmap of sorts - letting people know what's coming before it arrives. Case in point: The 1D X. It's not going to be available for six months but we know it's coming. In an interview with a Canon sales person (wish I could find it) he basically said that they get lots of complaints that no one knows what's coming so they're going to start providing a little more of a roadmap as to future products.
    There have been rumors that the 5D line will be split - one full-frame high megapixel camera optimized for photo (and a possible successor to the 1Ds line) and a second full-frame camera with an emphasis on video capability.
     
  8. Oh great, now I will have to buy a new 4k TV. Just kidding. This is so cool, and we photographers will benifits from it as
    well i'm sure. It just cracks me up that video on the 5D was kind of an after thought, they had no idea it would go in these
    directions. I just love the new possibilities that show up in each generation of digital.
     
  9. Sorry, just read the other link today to the C300 bit, and saw the C300 mentioned by name in the OP's link, too.
     
  10. I believe the new C300 camera is $20,000 or so and the two new PL mount lenses are $45000 and $47000
    It's professional professional gear aimed at movie studios and well funded indies. Not even aimed at low budget aspiring movie makers. Even the EF mount lenses are $6800.
    The camera "in development" is likely an EOS 5D MkIII. I'd presume that will probably come in at a price around $3000 or so. The EOS 5D MkII is already being used in commercial movie making, so it makes sense to upgrade the video features in a MkIII version.
    "4K" just means a horizontal resolution of around 4000 pixels. Vertical resolution depends on the aspect ratio you're shooting at. The current 5D MkII has over 5000 horizontal pixels so pixel density is high enough. Reading the data out is the problem, but with the new Digic V+ processor chips used in the 1D X, along with the higher speed readout circuitry used in the 1D X sensor, I assume an EOS 5D MkIII capable of generating 4K video is quite possible with existing technology (or at least technology in the advanced development stage), especially if you don't try to push the frame rate too high.
    I imagine the people who may get shook up are the vendors of expensive 4K systems like Red, though it's noteworthy that Red have just released a 4K video camera system for $9750 with shipping starting in early December 2011. It can take EOS lenses too.
     
  11. Not a 5Dmk3. http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/03/canon-has-a-new-eos-movies-dslr-on-the-way-too/
     
  12. zml

    zml

    An affordable 4K video rig is a good thing! The filmmaking assholes will finally know what it feels like when everybody can be a filmmaker, just as still photogs are confronted now with the "my uncle with a Rebel can do it for a sixpack" spiel.
    But I bet ASC/BSA will try to legaly stop their members from using any equipment costing less than $100,000...They will maintain their standards! :)
     
  13. I'm thinking it's a hint of what the next "1Ds" camera is going to look like. Emphasis on video, but high quality imagery all around too. The press release specifically talks about "high resolution". A 1 Series camera with 4k video (better than the 1D X) is not going to be cheap, but it probably is going to be better than the 1D X in still image resolution to justify the cost. There's likely a new sensor inside that body if they are pulling 4k resolution out of it.
    I suspect they "discontinued" the 1Ds series just so they could bring it back rebranded with a video focus. This camera is likely targeted at commercial photographers dealing with the convergence of stills/motion. They've got demanding clients and this helps them to accomplish it without having to go to something like the Red.
     
  14. The 1D X sensor is perfectly capable of generating a 4K image, insofar as it has more than the required resolution. Whether the sensor and electronics could be made to readout a 4K image at 24/25 fps I don't know, but in the 1D X it is capable of reading out a full sensor "5K" image (with about twice the pixel count required for 4K) at 14 fps. I know from talking with Canon that the 1D X sensor is a new design which has been specifically optimized for readout speed.
    I very much doubt that Canon will be bringing back the 1Ds as a cinema orriented SLR. If it's not a 5D MkIII I suspect it will be something similar (maybe a 5Dc).
     
  15. My guess, it could be the 1Dx itself. It's still under development, and 4K capability is APS-H sized field of sensor.
     
  16. Well it's clearly not a 5D III based on the photos of the preproduction camera. That's the new 1D X body form they are showing.
    It could theoretically be the 1D X with the 18MP sensor some software/hardware tweaks to allow 4k video, but that's not a particularly compelling camera IMHO. Supposedly the 1D X video quality is much improved from the already very good 5D II, so I don't know that 4k video would demand a price premium over the base 1D X if everything else was the same.
    I think that they are going to have to include high resolution stills along with the improved 4k video to justify a higher price and the position in the Canon lineup. That seems consistent with what Canon's press releases are hinting at:
    the new camera will be ideally suited for cinematographic and other digital high-resolution production applications.
    the next-generation digital SLR camera currently under development will enable exceptional image quality
     
  17. An image published by Luminous Landscape ("whatsnew" section entry on Nov 3) shows the a body labeled "C" and with a lens that can be a new PL mount but for sure not an EF mount one.
    Besides the SLR form like the 1D(s) it can be a piece of new lineup where still photography is not the main feature like today's cameras with video functionalities.
     
  18. The camera "in development" is likely an EOS 5D MkIII. I'd presume that will probably come in at a price around $3000 or so. The EOS 5D MkII is already being used in commercial movie making, so it makes sense to upgrade the video features in a MkIII version.
    I hope Canon splits the 5D line into photo optimized and video optimized versions. I would really like to see and buy a FF body in the 30+ MP range for landscape work. Just go ahead and double the 18 MP in the 7D and 1DX and give me 36 MP. I couldn't care less about video.
     
  19. I hope Canon splits the 5D line into photo optimized and video optimized versions
    But they have, in a way. Filmmakers asked Canon why can't they add the features that they need (to the 5D Mk II) ... and Canon developed the C300 for them. A video optimized DSLR that compromised still capability would always be 10x more expensive than the still optimized version because of the smaller sales volumes of the video version. And that kind of defeats the whole purpose of the request (which was why can't they add all the features that filmmakers need, and include it in the same price!)
     
  20. The other camera Canon pre-announced seems indeed to be a DSLR optimized for video, though not much specs to go on with. Lower resolution still capability, 4K video, full-frame sensor, 1 series chassis, PL mount (?) etc. So Canon seems to be catering very much for this market. Perhaps the 5D will stay a still camera mostly, and thus relatively affordable.
     
  21. At only $20K USD, I think I'l pick up a half dozen of these puppies.
     
  22. zml

    zml

    Every time the status quo gets changed there is a lot of noise, and Canon have changed the existing situation quite dramatically by seemingly abandoning both cornerstone concepts of their professional lineup. No more APS-H sensor and no more high-res FF “studio” rig sans video.
    I for one don’t give a flying hoot about a high end still camera in which video is playing the first fiddle. Au contraire: I’d like a high end successor of 1Ds3 with no video or with a video functionality that doesn’t in any way compromises the IQ and camera features for still photography and doesn’t unnecessarily make the camera more fragile or/and expensive. If I don’t get one, I’ll simply go somewhere else (which means two systems: Nikon for outdoors and MFD for studio, because no MFD system is as well environmentally sealed as Canon 1Ds3 or Nikon D3, and there is no other player.) The issue here are build quality and ergonomics: it was wonderful to be able to switch from a high speed 1D body to a high-res 1Ds body and just keep shooting, without thinking where a particular button is and without an umbrella... Yeah, I will use 1Dx (that “loss of reach vs. APS-H sensor” thing and other purported weaknesses of that concept are not important to me) alas; I need a higher res rig as well…
    Filmmaking is so different from still photography that on the professional level these two make no sense, in one body, whatsoever, unless a pro quality (say, that of the existing 1Ds3 without any compromises) single frames can be obtained from a continuous video stream (and that is some time in the future….)
    How different is video vs. still photography setup is evident to anyone that has ever seen a pro video rig or used a Canon 5DII equipped for video: it looks like a Rube Goldberg contraption useless for still photography. You know, monitors, follow focus, filters, blinds, and other crap that a still photographer doesn’t use or need. And how many proponents of “video in every camera” have actually made a pro-quality video in their lives, eh? Video is a collaborative effort (for instance, in still photography one has to maintain scene continuity for a fraction of a second and in video for much longer than that, which takes people and resources…) and still photographer can get by alone or with a single assistant. Even documentary type video is way more than just “pointing and shooting.”
    How bad IMO Canon is trying to shove video futures down our throats is reflected in the “video and photo” surveys sent to CPN/CPS members: worthless from the research perspective these surveys are designed to justify (“look, boss, they want it…”) already existing designs. The menu of answers seems to be so limited and so highly biased, that a reasonably intelligent responder should just write “yes, just release what you are going to release anyway, regardless of what I write.” My answers often include a caveat that although I need a car and eat crepes, I don’t want a car that is also a crepe maker.
    It is beyond me why waste (apparently) scarce design, engineering and manufacturing (sensors!) resources at Canon trying to marry water and fire, instead of trying to produce the best possible pro still photography rig and the best possible pro video rig. And if they someday converge in one professional body, so be it, but that day is far in the future, the success of 5D2 notwithstanding.
    My opinion, of course, YMMV. Time to get off the podium… :)
     
  23. In terms of an affordable 4k camera, I think RED beat Canon to it with their new Scarlet-X... In terms of the cinema industry being shook up, I don't think so. Just because anybody can buy a 4k camera, doesn't mean they can create anything substantive. The amount of equipment on top of the camera+lens required to make motion look half decent is astounding, and the amount of people required to create something half decent is also astounding, much in the same way, that yes anybody can go shoot a wedding with a camera pushing 20000 ASA with a lens that opens up to f1.2, but it doesn't mean that they can produce good work, and more importantly make a living out of it.
     
  24. Michael & Marc make excellent points above. Cinematography & movie making is a completely different ball-game from photography, the former requiring massive amounts of team effort & rigs to allow for motion, focus, scene continuity, etc.
    I'm not supportive of sacrifices to the still photography side of a camera for the sake of video. They should be two separate rigs.
    Furthermore, Canon's strategy of recent just confuses me. There are things about the 1Dx that are better than the C300 for video, and, of course, vice versa.
    One the one hand: The 1Dx has a larger sensor so can use longer focal length lenses for the same FOV... therefore one can get shallower DOF on the 1Dx for any given scene than the C300. The 1Dx also has a slightly larger pixel pitch (6.95µm vs 6.4µM), so should have higher SNR. I would venture a guess that the 1Dx could have even lower moire than the C300 b/c supposedly it takes a full 18MP image & downsizes it to 2MP for 1080p; using the proper downsizing algorithm (Lanczos?), one should be able to prevent moire more than a lower resolution sensor (theory of aliasing says the higher your sampling rate - or resolution in this case - the lower the danger of aliasing). Correct me if I'm wrong.
    On the other hand: The 1Dx is limited in video utility b/c its codec is not as good as the C300 & it can't be over/under-cranked like the C300 can. And to top it all, neither of these cameras can even shoot 1080p above 30fps like the Red Scarlet can.
    Honestly, I wouldn't even know which camera to use for video b/c of the pros/cons of each.

    So I hope that they didn't make any sacrifices to the 1Dx for purposes of video. I'm a little disappointed in the lower resolution but hope the increase in DR due to the lower resolution compensates for this loss. It's funny: I prefer higher DR to higher resolution for a camera like the 1Dx which I'd like to use to shoot people/weddings/events b/c when you're shooting in these scenarios, you don't have the luxury of graduated ND filters & HDR. Ironically, I'd then take a higher resolution/lower DR camera for landscapes, b/c I have the luxury of controlling the DR of the scene using polarizers, grad ND filters, tripod HDR shots, etc. Meanwhile, I'd benefit from the higher resolution for large prints.
    Cheers,
    Rishi
     
  25. Oh I probably should've mentioned the advantage of the C300 due to 'log gamma' which should help recover color/detail in highlights... currently color grading bright skies/exposures on 5D II footage is a nightmare & will probably continue to be so with the 1Dx. Any drastic exposure decreases to brights leads to offensive banding & noise in areas of smooth tone.
     

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