LIKES and the community

I was skeptical about the addition of LIKES in the new version of PN. But I figured, since I know it exists in a lot of other social media (I'm not on Facebook or other such sites so I had no prior experience with LIKES), I wouldn't draw conclusions until I saw how they played out.

 

I think they undermine a healthy sense of community and wonder if there could be a way to opt out of getting, giving, and seeing LIKES.

 

[Lest anyone think this is sour grapes on my part, I'm high enough up on the list of members who've received LIKES, something I don't consider much of an honor or even worthy of mention outside the context of this thread.]

 

I look through No Words threads and consistently see certain people getting LIKES and others not. I imagine for some, it's like getting picked last for the basketball team in Junior High School and for others it's like getting fondly swatted with a towel in the locker room, a sign of virility or some such nonsense. In any case, the pertinent comparison is to Junior High School.

 

It just seems to me another unfortunate way of introducing unnecessary competition into a photography site, which I would prefer be about sharing photos and ideas about photography, its purposes, and its means of production. It would be nice if the sharing could be done on as equal footing as possible.

 

Why not just vote for Mr. and Miss Popularity at the end of each of month? [That's me being facetious.]

 

The LIKES seem a way to pile on and to divide the community into the haves and the have nots, the more and less popular.

 

I'm not saying it might not feel good to LIKE something someone else says or posts and I'm not saying it might not feel good to get a LIKE. I am saying it's a pretty superficial high and I think there are more down sides to it than up sides.

 

Having experienced the LIKE system for a few weeks now, I don't see how it adds to a shared sense of community and find it rather alienating and juvenile.

currently i am of the opposite opinion. i think we should communicate through pics, likes and nothing else.

 

(of course that may change)

Edited March 27, 2017 by Norman 202

Norman, pics, likes, . . . and avatars. ;-)

 

And I guess emoticons, too!

I'm in general agreement. That's why I announced I wasn't going to play at the beginning (although I think no one understood me).

 

Of course there are some for whom communicating only through this mechanism would be an improvement.

although I think no one understood me.

 

i think people just ignored you.

See, Naff proves my point!

See, Naff proves my point!

whine-burger, stop whining

What do you call it when a toad calls you ugly?

Likes are at least an occasionnal evidence that threads are more than a juxtaposition of statements (which appears not to be the case in the rare example above).

I'm in agreement with Fred on this.

 

It just makes me feel obligated to liking back other's posted pics that liked some of mine even though I don't find theirs that interesting and then feeling guilty for not reciprocating. I'm left struggling to be honest with myself mentally negotiating which out of the other member's posted works are the most interesting or likable but for no reason other than to just reciprocate.

 

It feels like an empty gesture just to increase a member's "Like" numbers that some may misinterpret to mean that person's work is "the best" when it really isn't.

 

There's another "photo/art" site I just registered at where right after I uploaded some of my old artwork and photos I immediately received notifications from anonymously named strangers making them their "favorite" or giving me a "Badge" and some putting them in their collection categorized as "Concepts" along with other artwork they didn't create. Not one sent me a message saying why they seemed to be interested in my work on first look.

 

I think this is the nature of socializing on the internet. Blind man's bluff at glad handing. Doesn't mean a thing and leads to nothing. And it takes too much time when I could be posting meaningful feedback in other discussions that interest me.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Tim_Lookingbill

I'd rather have a sentence of comment than a Like any day. That said, most of my posts here since the PNet 2.0 Reformation have been in No Words, so maybe I'm setting myself up for disappointment... Edited March 27, 2017 by Dustin McAmera

I like likes. It's a quick and easy way of acknowledgement. I see an image or comment that I like, one click gives a nod of approval without the analysis of a composed comment. Better, in many cases, since my skill at composing a textual comment is 'limited' (maybe to say the least).

Particularly images in threads, decomposition of an image to try and express what and/or why I like it is limited by the intrinsic nature of translation from visual to textual, and more explicitly by 'MY' limitations.

In the case of text in threads, if somebody makes a concise thought, quoting it or adding more words cripples the eloquence of their conciseness. A like works.

Fred loves good,, thoughtful analysis, and so do I. Even so, when one considers just how many "comments" wind up being "Attaboy!" I am relieved at times that I do not have to offer a sustained analysis in order to indicate my approval.

 

In any case, offering a "Like" doesn't preclude the possibility or opportunity of my taking the time to offer a more sustained comment--when I have the time to do that, which is rare enough.

 

--Lannie

I think the biggest problem with "likes" is that Photo.net counts them.

 

Otherwise I think there are pros and cons. But I do think there are times when I enjoy a photograph without feeling able to intellectualise about why. And just because I'm not able/don't have the will to explain in tortured detail why I like someone's photograph doesn't mean I don't like it, or that I shouldn't be able to say that I like it unless I can describe how it affects me. Same with food- sometimes you just enjoy something without necessarily wanting to explain or excuse your liking in analytical terms, and indeed if I had to come up with some intellectually satisfactory sentence to excuse the fact that someone's picture had given me a moments pleasure then I might "like" fewer pictures because the price of "liking" would be too high.

 

I also think Fred's comment serves to negate the whole quick W/NW thing, and there is the opportunity to ask for and to give more detailed critiques elsewhere on this site for those that want to do that. I don't, but then I don't think that Photo.net must choose just one way of allowing people to show and comment on each others work, and we're all free to choose to play whichever of the games we find most appealing. There's something drive-by about W/NW and I'm enjoying it because of that, not despite that. Maybe I think that most of my reactions are fairly rapid and transient, rather than deeply intellectualised and life-changing- which in the interests of sanity I'm happy to bump into less frequently. I also like W/NW because of the way it encourages me to go through my catalogue and assess compliance with a theme I haven't dreamed up myself.

 

I did pick up and agree with Dustin McAmera's aside that these days it is pretty much the case that its the W/NW threads that are giving the forums some life- and as a long-time forums contributor here it is the case that otherwise there is simply not enough happening there- not enough interesting questions- to justify frequent visits. I can recall that for several years I had to ration my time in the forums - choosing where I could make hopefully the best responses- otherwise the other things I need to do would suffer.

For one reason or another its not like that now and hasn't been for a while. We could debate who (if anyone) should be carrying the can for that, and whether more could be done to improve forum volumes but whatever, we need something here and now to replace a flow of questions and right now W/NW is it; and I think W/NW is improved by "likes". I'd much rather have "likes" than some spurious number , or test people's ingenuity by seeking an acceptable synonym for "wow"

I am not entirely against likes, simply due to it's sheer practicality in a busy world, when most people do not get the time to compose responses. Also, instead of scrolling through posts, I can quickly find out how many/who agree with something that I posted. I know for sure, some of these people wouldn't care to post their reactions, had there been no like feature. What I don't like (no pun) is turning the likes count into a badge of honor and reporting that back. It's a biased metric, considering there isn't a dislike button. So it can give a false sense of ego, where a person with heavy likes count may not take disagreement or criticism easily. The word 'like' has such a sweetness in it, it can be hard to remain unspoiled, specially if you have a sweet tooth. :)

 

I agree with Fred about the likes dynamics in the no words forums. However, the no words forums don't allow any textual feedback, so currently, likes are the only way to express and receive reaction to the images. Of course, an argument can be made that, reactions are unnecessary in the no words forum, which is primarily meant for sharing images on a particular theme and checking out each other's interpretation/vision of that theme.

 

Lastly I would just put out some pointers. Liking someone's argument is not liking the person. Agreeing with someone is not necessarily liking what that person wrote. Alternatively, I can disagree with an extremely well composed argument, yet fall in love with the writing. All these distinctions are somehow marred within a single like expression. Ok, now I am fooling myself ....

I was wondering if we can have the option of liking someone's like, and then liking someone's liking of someone's like, and so on and so forth, growing in an infinitely nested pile of likes.

i like likes but i don't see why people can't opt out of receiving them or seeing other people's likes.

I also think Fred's comment serves to negate the whole quick W/NW thing, and there is the opportunity to ask for and to give more detailed critiques elsewhere on this site for those that want to do that.

Dave, not sure why you would say this. I certainly don't want to negate the whole quick No Words thing. The No Words threads are some of my favorite to look through precisely because there are . . . no words. By posing that LIKES go away, you seem to wrongly assume that I'm advocating for critiques to be brought into the No Words threads. That's not true. I'm advocating for No Words, including the word "like". I always thought it was nice that the No Words forum didn't come with known reactions. Photos were put out there for sharing, not for reaction. It was a clean visual field and a field free of judgment. Emphasize the "free of judgment" part. People who wanted their photos "liked" or "disliked" and in a somewhat more competitive environment could submit their photos for ratings, a more judgment-oriented forum. No Words was about seeing all levels of photography side-by-side where I could appreciate the different ways in which the theme was visualized instead of how good the photo may or may not have been.

 

By the way, because I know people like LIKING things and receiving LIKES, I asked if LIKES could be disabled or hidden by choice, not banned.

In any case, offering a "Like" doesn't preclude the possibility or opportunity of my taking the time to offer a more sustained comment--when I have the time to do that, which is rare enough.

I agree. Offering a LIKE doesn't preclude giving a more thoughtful critique.

 

I'll say to you what I was saying to Dave. I had no intention of advocating for more thoughtful critiques here. I think those days of thoughtful back and forth dialogue on photos here at PN are pretty much over and have resigned myself to that over the years as I've seen the amount of critiques dwindle and many thoughtful members disappear. I'm just trying to defend PN from turning even more shallow, at least for myself, by asking not to have to be part of what I consider to be a system of hollow gestures. As I said to Dave, the one place on PN that was always judgment free and more about interpreting a theme than quality of photo was No Words. LIKES undercuts that for me.

Fred

After being more than a little chary before the event, I happen to think that "likes" improve the Words/No Words threads. Why? Well because as a photographer its useful to know what photographs ( mine and others') create a positive response and which don't. Its certainly teaching me about the material of mine that people respond to. Further it has got me thinking about the value of a quick spontaneous response to a photograph and I've concluded that these might actually be more natural and useful input (to me) than an inevitably small number of in depth critiques. As I say, I have woken up to a reality that I think that not everyone knows or can write down what it is about a photograph that makes them like it- but they know they do enjoy it. And not being able or willing to write things down at length does not mean that views are worthless.

 

So, in essence I said what I said because for me, the ability to give or get likes is an integral part of why I'm finding W/NW fun in the context that the other forum activities are at a very low ebb. You have the ability not to give likes now. I'm more ambivalent about the others you mention. One of the several reasons I have always opted not have a portfolio online here is that I did not want my work numerically rated by people I don't know, and whose opinions I did not know what to think of, but who might be influenced by mate-rating (or lack of it). But to avoid that, I didn't run a portfolio at all, so accepting the rule but side-stepping it. I don't quite understand why you'd be happy to look at a W/NW thread but would prefer not to know whether other people like some of the pictures and not others? I can't see why your enjoyment of the interpretations of a theme is diminished if you know other people like some of the photographs. Do you feel the same about looking at someone's portfolio? Or will you feel the same if, as is possible, some form of rating system returns?

 

I should repeat what I said above and previously. I don't think "likes " should be counted . I don't think that "likes" are a good measure of someone's value to the community -nor the number of posts they have made.

I don't quite understand why you'd be happy to look at a W/NW thread but would prefer not to know whether other people like some of the pictures and not others?

Please read my OP. I gave my reasons there.

Taste is the enemy of creativity. --Picasso

This is another reason.

 

I know that taste is a part of art and photography and am not sure matters of taste can be completely overcome or should be, though I think Picasso makes an important observation! So having one small area of a site that is taste free (at least in terms of public expressions of it) seems a reasonable thing to consider.

Fred, quick question, with respect to community building do you consider Likes to be better, worse or the same as ratings?

Fred, quick question, with respect to community building do you consider Likes to be better, worse or the same as ratings?

Worse.

 

As far as ratings, there are many downsides. The one upside I can think of in terms of community-building is that having a ratings queue was a place where some people did go to look at batches of photos and some critiques were given as the result of someone's starting out in the ratings queue.

I am with Fred on this one. I'd like to opt out of the liking system too. It all seems rather sophomoric to me. I have "liked" a few shots, but I get the feeling that if you don't like every shot you know from anyone you vaguely "know" on this site then somehow you are not "playing the game". If you end up liking everything then your like is devalued anyway. I also don't appreciate rating systems either. Photography is really not some giant competition. Another related issue is that once liked you can't unlike. Ideas and views change, so what seems great one day may seem a tired cliche the next and so on. I suspect that us "non-likers" are in a minority though, so I anticipate it will continue unabated.