Lighting 20+ people indoors

<p>Hi! I'm a lurker and have finally signed up!<br /><br />I have an upcoming wedding with some big indoor family group shots that will need to be done, maybe 20 people per group. I can stack them in 3 rows of 6/7 across or so but was wondering, given what gear I have below, what would be the best way to light this inside the church? The venue has average ambient lighting and would probably meter at 1/60, f/2.8 at 800 ISO.<br /><br />1-580exII<br />3-430ex (one is on its way to the graveyard)<br /><br />2-45" reflective umbrellas (white with removable black backing)<br />1-60" umbrella (same)<br />2-8 foot light stands.<br /><br />1-Pocket Wizard transmitter<br />2-Receivers<br /><br />I'll shoot wide, maybe 15 feet back. 1/40 - 1/60 maybe(?). I'd like to keep this simple. I should have about 20 minutes to set up. I can't bounce because this place is too big. 20 people might not be big to you guys but I normally do very small weddings.<br /><br />So, given what I have, what combination would be best for this? I will be shooting at manual power and will get a reading with a light meter but just want to know if my flash units and umbrellas would have enough spread for even exposure with these size groups. If not, I need to get something else maybe. I tried practicing this in my garage but it just isn't the same. :)<br /><br />I've also searched the forum and have found some good general reading on this.<br /><br /><br />Thanks!</p>

<p>If you have done a serach, pretty much everything is discussed here:</p>

<p>http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00WOk3</p>

<p>Was there something else you are looking for?</p>

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<p>Was there something else you are looking for?</p>

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<p>Well, yes. I read that thread a few days ago and that's what inspired me to start my own. But there's all kinds of different gear involved, everything from Sunpaks to reflectors. That's why I listed my specific equipment. Thought I could get some specific advice, customized especially for me. :)</p>

<p>I'd like to try a single 60" umbrella, back about 15 feet just to my right and up 8' or so. With maybe the 580 or 2 of the 430's shooting into this single umbrella. (A single umbrella to eliminate cross shadows). Do you think that's enough power? Somebody suggested to <strong>shoot through</strong> the 60 incher with a 580 and positioning the umbrella way off to the right side of the group and feathering it a bit to spread some light on the end person on the other side. Not sure this will work though.</p>

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<p>A single 580EX with the wide angle diffuser down, full power, pointed into the 60" umbrella will work. It will give you f5.6 at ISO 400 at 10 feet from your subjects. Otherwise, if you pull it back to 15 feet (try 14 feet, which is closer to the multiple for stop difference in distance), you'd need ISO 800. See my test in the thread linked to above. I used my 60" umbrella, reflected, with the back covers on.</p>

<p>If you put 2-580s into the umbrella, you'd gain a stop. If you used 2-430s, you'd lose 2/3 stop from the 2-580s set up.</p>

<p>Closely packed rows would be OK with f5.6 if using around 35mm or wider (non cropped) focal length. Go to DOF master and check it out.</p>

<p>Shoot through on a 60" umbrella won't give you the ability to feather particularly well. If you understand what feathering is, you are using the edges of a light source, and the 'far' edge of a shoot through umbrella (curved) will not 'reach' the opposite end of a group very well. This is why it is said that shoot through can hot spot. For me, the primary reason to use shoot through is so you can place your light source very close to your subjects. That, or the curved shape is an advantage, such as lighting a curved, horseshoe shaped group. Shoot through is also not as efficient re flash power.</p>

<p>Funny thing is, I was just at a lighting seminar the other day (PPA sponsored) and like any seminar, the lead off was that you can't possibly learn it all in one seminar! But the great thing about the way the physics of light works is that it doesn't change. It the same today, as it will tomorrow, as it will next week. I suppose as we delete the ozone there is a chance our modifiers might catch on fire but the physics of light is the same.</p>

<p><em>Your gear</em> doesn't matter. That is to say, you aren't shooting with a 8x6 Larson softbox using a ProFoto strobe. You are essentially shooting with the same gear as outlined in the other thread. <em>How you</em> go about lighting it is all up to you. There were many different theories on how to light the shot in the other thread. One isn't any better than the other since better is subjective. Which leads back, what <em>more</em> can we tell you. It seems you are asking us to tell you <em>exactly</em> where to place your lights and what lights to use? How does that help you?</p>

<p><blockquote>It seems you are asking us to tell you <em>exactly</em> where to place your lights and what lights to use? How does that help you?<br>

Not to sound sarcastic but actually, that would help a lot. :)</blockquote></p>

<p>And I can appreciate seminars and lighting theory but I'm merely looking for general guidance from those who have similar gear to my own AND have shot groups of this size. You see, I won't get a chance to experiment with this, I can't round up 20 people for a BBQ and try it out nor can I replicate the light in the venue. I'll only get one opportunity at this, maybe two after an upcoming ceremony.<br>

Nadine: Thank you. I read how you did this in the other thread but thought you were using a Sunpak.</p>

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<p>Allison--I <strong>was</strong> using a Sunpak 120J. However, I tested the Sunpak and the 580EX II (with wide angle diffuser in place) pointed into my 60" umbrella.</p>

 

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<p>I happened to have my large umbrella out today to test something, and took some readings, in case it helps anyone. My Sunpak 120j at 1/2 power gives f5.6 and 2/3 at 10 feet (from the umbrella inside surface), ISO 400. If you have an on camera fill at approximately 1:3 ratio, your final aperture will be 1/3 to 1/2 stop smaller, meaning, with the above, your final exposure will be approximately f8. Light is additive so if you are dragging the shutter a lot, that will figure in too.<br>

<em>I then tested my 580EX at full power (1/1) inside the umbrella, with the wide angle diffuser pulled out for maximum light spread. It tested f5.6 and 1/3.</em></p>

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<p>Even though you can't come close to having 20 people to experiment on, I'd still set everything up and test, even if you only have one person. You will then have a chance to determine where to set the umbrella in realtion to the flash, for instance, for ideal coverage of the flash beam inside the umbrella. This kind of thing, we can't tell you. Then, have a back up plan, such as on camera flash, if, for some reason, your plan doesn't work. Or use of two flashes, one on each side.</p>

<p>I don't see a need for the wide angle diffuser for spread in a 60" umbrella; 24mm zoom setting is generally sufficient to spread the light IMO.</p>

<p>What I do is put two shoot-through umbrellas in the center and point them outward toward the edges of the group. That said, I may go back to pointing two umbrellas directly towards the group and separated from each other by about 6-10 feet just to see if I like the output better.</p>

<p>Camera settings be darned, I get what I get. I don't expect miracles and I don't get them - I do a test shot and adjust my camera to what is necessary.</p>

<p>20 people is a fairly large number for me; if there was a dynamic environment to pose people against instead of just an altar, it can be much more interesting.</p>

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<p>I don't see a need for the wide angle diffuser for spread in a 60" umbrella; 24mm zoom setting is generally sufficient to spread the light IMO.</p>

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<p>I was wondering the same thing. If you make the shaft longer (put the speedlight further away from the umbrella surface this should do the same thing? And maybe not lose the 2/3 stop of light because of the diffuser flap. I'm a little hesitant to question Nadine's advice though. :)</p>

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<p>What I do is put two shoot-through umbrellas in the center and point them outward toward the edges of the group.</p>

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<p>This is interesting but won't work for a full length group shot. The umbrellas would be in the way.</p>

<p>I think where I'm at right now is to shoot two 430's in the 45" reflective umbrellas, one to each side at 1/2 power. Then maybe the 580 right over the lens axis for fill light with the WA diffuser flap down.</p>

 

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<p >As a 2nd shooter that does the occasional solo wedding I can't justify the cost but most of the people I work with use higher powered strobes/mono lights to do the things speedlights just weren't designed to do. You can get an AB1600 for the price of a single 580ex with change to spare. Of course you'll need that change to buy a 100' extension cord as portable power costs almost as much as the AB itself. :)</p>

<p > </p>

<p >And at the risk of irking the strobist camp, my point here is to use the right tool for the job at hand. If you're ever going to be in a situation where power is needed then get something that will deliver that power. I just don't buy into using speedlights exclusively for weddings. </p>

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<p>I'm betting that if you tested the 580EX into the umbrella with and without the diffuser, you aren't going to get much of a difference if at all, and filling the umbrella surface makes a difference in light quality. But I could be wrong. I like to pull the umbrella in close to the flash to help with weight distribution on the stand. The closer the umbrella to the center of axis on the stand, the better.</p>

<p>Test it and see. Report back to us. I'd be interested.</p>

<p>Also, when using two shoot throughs as a bank of light, you set up once, and use your zoom to frame the subsequent groups, with the camera remaining 'under' the bank, so you set up for your largest group.</p>

<p>If your plan to use two 45" umbrellas, you won't need fill light. The umbrellas are throwing frontal light anyway. You may need the third, on camera flash to add to and even out the light, but not for fill.</p>

<p>And, I am not infallible. Question all you want. I may learn something.</p>

If you stack the people in 3 rolls and your lights are too close to the people, about 8 feet or less, you could experience a 1 stop variation between the first row of people the second and the third. For example when the flash fires the first row is dead on regarding the exposure, the second row may be 1/2 under and the third is 1 under.

 

If you can move our lights way back, 25 feet or so, the lighting will be more even, maybe just a 1/4 stop between all 3 rows.

 

Keep your lights higher than usual, 10 feet to 12 feet, depending how far away you are.

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<p>If you stack the people in 3 rolls and your lights are too close to the people, about 8 feet or less, you could experience a 1 stop variation between the first row of people the second and the third.</p>

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<p>Yes, thanks Bob for that silly inverse square law thingy reminder. Never did understand it. I should have time to meter each row during setup and move my lightstands accordingly.</p>

<p>And RT, I understand about the Alien Bees. Should I find myself in this situation more often I can see moving in this direction.</p>

 

<p>Seems that the extra you'd need is a Y connector to trigger two 430EXs on a dual bracket fired into the 60" reflected umbrella ... both set to manual full power. Take this up as high as your stands will go which, when the umbrella is used in the reflected mode, will be higher than 8'. Like Nadine said, place it camera right as the key light about 10' from the subject. </p>

<p>Being as close, and as high as you can get away with will place the light downward and avoid drop shadows, while evening out the light front to back. The further away you get with the light, the taller of a stand you need for the same angled effect.</p>

<p>Put the 580EX on another stand with the 45" reflective umbrella take that up to 8' and place it just behind your camera position. You may want to avoid placing it camera left even if set for fill because you'll get double shadows. You can slightly feather it (biased to the left). But the more direct and straight on it is, the more it acts as fill without creating another set of side shadows.</p>

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<p>Nadine,</p>

<p>You want the flash as far from the umbrella as you can. Or at least as far away as to provide coverage across the surface of the umbrella. This is easiest to test by shooting through the umbrella. Set it all up. Stand <em>in front</em> of the umbrella. Take one shot with the umbrella pushed all to the flash. You will see a very small circle of light. Then pull the umbrella away from the flash, this circle will start to increase. Essentially, you want to fill the whole umbrella, otherwise, you really don't have a 48" or 60" or whatever light source. I have some time tonight I might try to post some examples.</p>

<p>Perhaps, John, but I found, at least with my Sunpak, that if I took the reflector off, and put the bare bulb into the umbrella as close as possible to the spokes, the light efficiency actually increased because the entire surface of the 60" umbrella was being used to reflect the light. When I tested, I think I gained about 1/3 to 1/2 stop. Not to mention, the quality of the light and coverage was nicer. Now, this may be due to the type of bulb on the Sunpak, which outputs light, actually out the sides of the long tube.</p>

<p>When I tested my 580EX, I pointed it into the umbrella, not as close to the spokes, with the wide angle diffuser down, and got f5.6 1/3. The acid test would be to actually photograph the coverage pattern of the umbrella, as well as meter the light efficiency.</p>

<p>Hi Nadine! Well, I didn't shoot my Quantum bare bulb, I left the reflector on. I am not sure bare bulb would have gained my anything though. My results were interesting. First, there is a definite difference in the <em>size</em> of the light source the further back the umbrella is from the flash. That much I already knew. However, this size difference is virtually (if not totally) irrelevant at the distances we are working at when shooting a group. If this were a portrait, I think we would "see" some differences. My set up wasn't all that scientific, I was just doing this out of curiosity. I had my light source on a stand about 13 feet from the camera. Camera was on a tripod, light stand didn't move. ISO was always 400.</p>

<p>Started with a Nikon SB900 flash. In retrospect, I should have at least thrown a SB800 on there just to not any difference in the spread. Anyway, SB900, 13', full power, I got f7.1 @ the camera. 10' left of camera = f/5.6. So 2/3rds difference, but a 20 foot spread. To control front to back fall off, just keep the flash raised above the group! Not too bad. Probably one of the reasons I prefer bare bulb (with my QFlash though!). If I use the built in w/a panel, I drop to f/5.6 @ camera and f/4.5 @ 10' off center. So I lose 2/3rds of a stop and gain nothing! 10' off center was as wide as I could go. I am now wondering how wide I would need to go between the two before I saw a difference!</p>

<p>Next up, SB900 through a white umbrella, umbrella near the flash. @ camera f/4. 10' off center f/4! Here is what I found interesting... with the umbrella furthest from the flash, @ camera f/4. 10' off center f/3.6. So almost 1/3 of a stop. Now you can definitely see a difference in the size of the light source. All the way in and I am getting a small oval of light near the flash head. All the way out and all of the umbrella is lit. In pratical terms, I think I would prefer it all the way out as the increase in the light source is substantial. This <em>should</em> mean the center of the group is somewhat softer lit. The other interesting discovery is how much<em> less </em>light<em> </em>appears to be reflected <em>back</em> when the umbrella is further from the flash. This is image #1.</p>

<p>After that I tried the silver umbrella. Obviously using silver I am not shooting through the umbrella. The efficiency of the silver gained me 1/2 an f/stop. What's more, it was consistent with the umbrella close or far, at camera or at 10' off center. I was @ f/4.5 the whole time. The light spread striking the umbrella was virtually identical to the white umbrella. So, if I had to use an umbrella to light a group, I would want to use silver and I would still use it <em>further</em> from the flash. Although I didn't gain or lose any power, the light source is still <em>larger</em> when further from the flash. So something might be softer lit within the frame. Although I suspect at the distances we are working at, this is simply spitting hairs.</p>

<p>I did try a Qflash <em>with </em>the parabolic reflector but w/o the front diffuser and got the same results (f/4.5 all around). <em>However</em>, what I really found interesting was simply the quality of light difference between the SB900 fired into the silver umbrella and the Qflash. I have always said I liked the quality of light from the Qflash better. I will post that comparison next.</p><div></div>

<p>Here is the shot into the silver umbrella with the umbrella furthest from the flash. Left is the SB900, right is the Qflash. @ camera (about 13' away) I get f/4.5 from both. But the the illumination of just the umbrella is radically different. I have had people tell me I am nuts (which I will grant you- who spends Friday evening playing with flashes in their garage), but there <strong><em>IS</em></strong> a difference in the quality of light between flashes. </p>

<p>Anyway, as a disclaimer, this little test was hardly scientific and your mileage is certain to vary! For one thing, I had the flashes firing straight on.... something I would never recommend! But from my little endeavor, I have concluded that I do like the umbrella further from the flash if only for purposes of <em>possibly</em> softer light and I prefer my Qflash!</p><div></div>

<p>Ha ha--I'm also nuts. Here's what I tested. I was only interested in finding out the difference, if any, in efficiency between a shoemount flash (580EXII) with the wide angle diffuser down and one that was set to 24mm zoom. As I hypothesized, there was no difference in efficiency--both metered f5.6 1/3 at 10 feet. There was very little difference in light quality too, although I'd say you can see a very, very, very slight difference.</p>

<p>In A, you see the light pattern into the umbrella itself--flash pointed straight in with wide angle diffuser down. In B you see the flash makes a more concentrated blob in the umbrella. In A, the flash head was about 5 inches from where the spokes started (pictured in C), the face of the flash perhaps about 2 inches 'into' the umbrella edge. For B the face was perhaps even with the umbrella edge. Any more pushing of the umbrella from the flash and I'd be afraid of it being unstable. A 60" umbrella weighs quite a bit. I'd say my 120j, without the reflector, fills the umbrella much better, which is why I saw an increase in efficiency from reflector use. If you use your Q flash, I'd recommend going reflectorless.</p>

<p>The two scenes below correspond to the 2 positions. Identical exposure, position, etc.--so I didn't use a tripod. But very little difference.</p>

<p>Forgot the image! Here it is.</p><div></div>

<p>Anyway, the difference is that with Position A, the shadows are a tad more open.</p>

<p>Bob and Marc both bring up valuable facts about photographing groups. The flash/umbrella position is actually always a compromise between flash power and light coverage and quality. Ideally, for even coverage of rows, you want the biggest light source (softer) but one that is farther away, so light fall off isn't so quick (contraindicated). Ideally, you want a light source that is up high, pointed down at the same angle the rows go up, for the most even coverage, yet if you did that, you wouldn't be able to push the light back for less harsh fall off--everything kind of works against each other. Plus you wouldn't be able to hoist a huge umbrella and flash 20 feet into the air (you could, but it would be quite stressful, not to mention time consuming!).</p>

<p>To illustrate what Nadine is talking about, here is a diagram for lighting a 3 deep row of subjects on steps ... <em>shown from the side.</em><br>

<em><br /></em></p>

<p>Using Allison's original problem of a 20 person family group, assuming she can access steps or benches with a rise, (or a downward slope in the landscape in order to shoot and light downward), I would do 3 rows deep in a classic staggered pyramid formation: 8 in the front row, 7 in the second, and 5 in the rear ... which allows you to place the subjects in-between and behind one another. Or reverse that order ... which I do at weddings to place the emphasis on the front row with the B&G, and mitigate the front to back size distortion of a wide-angle lens by widening the rear row. A properly placed 60" umbrella about 10 feet away should cover 9 people wide if coupled with fill.</p>

 

As simulated in the diagram, when you move the light back from the subject you must increase the height to maintain the same downward coverage front-to-back while keeping the drop shadows off the rows behind one another. As you can see, the amount of height needed as you move back increases dramatically.

<p>As you move back the angle of coverage i<strong>ncreases</strong> and the level of light reaching the subject <strong>decreases</strong>. As you can imagine, that is pretty dramatic as well.</p>

<p>The trick is to find the right balance of being <strong>back enough to cover the widest row of subjects</strong> side-to-side, while being <strong>high enough to control drop shadows</strong> ... while <em>also</em> having <strong>enough light to maintain depth-of-field front-to-back</strong>. Fortunately the latter is less of an issue these days with some cameras offering better high ISO performance.</p>

<p>I<em> use up to 800 w/s of lighting power to accomplish this which is roughly equal to 7 or 8 SB900s or 580EX-IIs ... <strong>not because others need this</strong>, but because I usually shoot this type of assignment with a Medium Format Digital camera which 1) has less depth of field for any given f stop, 2) offers less high ISO performance than most 35mm DSLRs, 3) uses leaf shutter lenses with sync speeds to 1/800th of a second to control ambient contamination in mixed lighting. </em></p>

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<p>I thought I had posted this before, but must not have confirmed it. I would suggest the following alternative. It would be helpful to know what the camera ISO capabilities are, but<br>

1. I would use all my flash units and point them to the side or behind me (trying to bounce it off something)<br>

2. Put my ISO to the highest acceptable level, put camera on tripod and drag the shutter to compensate for the smaller apertures. You can shoot as low is 1/15, but will need to tell people to hold still as you are using a very special technique that requires it. <br>

3. If you have an iPhone, there is a small app called DOFMaster. It is very useful. Don't know what sort of lens you will be using, but at 15ft with a 50mm @ f5.6, your total DOF is only 6.4 feet (1/3 in front focal point, 2/3 behind). At 35mm @ 5.6, your DOF is 15.2! at 15 feet.<br>

In this model, you might be able to use mostly ambient light and fill/brighten the people with the flash. This also converts your light source from smaller flash to a larger source. With an umbrella, unless you have a very large one, it will be a small light source, will fall off quickly (from front to back and side to side). So you will have to balance (side to side) with a second strobe, but will still have front to back fall off.</p>

<p>If we are going for the <em>best </em>set up, then I would say a decent strobe in an umbrella/softbox hybrid and feather the light. Meaning imagine your group lined up, place the light camera right, about 2/3rds down the right side of the group. Imagine the light firing forward, no good. We need to turn the light so that the center axis is just past the center of the group, but the edge still catches the last person on the right. David Ziser explains it better than me! The strobe still needs to be above the group. But if you do this, especially with an umbrella/softbox hybrid, your metering on the guy on the furthest right is the same as the gal on the furthest left. (if set up properly). Feathering is the <em>best </em>but also takes the longest to set up and tear down and requires a strobe with enough power, I use an AB 1600 at at least 1/2 power.</p>