Leni Riefenstahl .

My colleague and I were talking about Leica photographers on Monday

and (knowing my taste for old British and other early B&W documentary

films) he asked me if I had ever seen "Triumph of the will".

 

I hadn't but I was intrigued by what he described (especially the

opening sequence with Hitler's plane) and found that the DVD is

available. In my research of the Director and this DVD I discovered

she was a well known photographer and a long time Leica user and died

exactly a year ago on Monday. (8th Sept 2003) aged 101 years.

 

According to what I read, the film is a masterpiece (albeit with a

repugnant subject) of cinematography and Leni was a respected

photographer (again respected technically rather than for her earlier

association with the Nazi cause)

 

I have ordered the DVD (the Synapse special edition) in the spirit

of wanting to view a historical document and see for myself if this

film was as groundbreaking in its technique as people say it is.

 

Given that she died almost exactly a year ago (except for 1 day) I

thought I would ask for other peoples ideas, thoughts etc and whether

her photographic work is worth looking into. Books, websites?

 

If the moderators feel this could be too inflammatory then pull it

but the film was made 70 years ago and does seem to be of some

importance even if repellent and presumably her post WW2 photography

was not Nazi in its themes so I am interested to know about this as

well.

 

Thanks

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005x76

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005xQn

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0078CL

 

You've obviously been living under a rock!

Thanks for the prompt response Vic. No rocks Vic. She has just never come to my attention before. I shall have a read.

I was just kidding. Some people here will now throw rocks at you, so duck!

<a href="">click here</a>

 

 

Here's some html. I think it would be cool if we all copy it onto our desk tops and use it. Put the url in between the two sets of quotation marks. The 'click here' will become the blue clickable link. Change accordingly if you want. Submit your answer as html instead of plain text...

Eric,

 

I don't know WTF you are talking about. Can't you explain in terms

that a computer illiterate, such as I, can understand?

 

Jerry

gerald,

copy n' paste the text that eric displayed. in between the quotation marks put the url (website that you type into the white box up top of your screen) then select "html" before you click on the "submit" button below when posting on p.net. your link will then be accessible by all by clicking on the blue "click me" text, rather than having to copy n' paste whatever...yadaa yada dha

Thanks Eric, let me give it a shot.

<BR>

<BR><a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005x76"> Leni Riefenstahl 1</a>

<BR>

<BR><a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005xQn">Leni Riefenstahl 2</a>

<BR>

<BR><a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0078CL">Leni Riefenstahl 3</a>

you gotst it working right, Vic

Wow, it worked! Thanks very much, I learnt something today!

Riefenstahl is right up there with (actually, a little above) Eggleston and Sontag,

when it comes to bringing out the best in Leica photographers, as we shall

undoubtedly see here.

 

Sigh.

Trevor, your post reminded me that I've never actually seen "Triumph of the Will." So since I was returning some stuff (three tripple-X and a Woody Alen) to the local video store tonight I picked up a DVD of "Triumph" and "Paul Strand, Under the Darkcloth." We'll see....

<i><<a href="http://4020.net/">4020.net</a>></i><p>

 

Hmm, they just L-O-V-E Leni over on the LUG. Check out the

following link, scroll down the page and read through

hundreds of recent posts about her :?)<p>

 

<a href="http://leica-users.org/v27/topics2.html">

http://leica-users.org/v27/topics2.html</a><p>

Reading the LUG I learned that Henry Ford and Walt Disney were rabid anti-Semites, and found an article:

<BR>

<BR><a href=" http://www.powernet.net/~hflippo/cinema/tiefland.html ">"Wherever you may run, you cannot escape him": Leni Riefenstahl's Self-Reflection and Romantic Transcendence of Nazism in Tiefland </a>

Please try and keep this thread from turning into the crap-fest that every other Leni thread has turned into.

She was an amoral sanctifier of racist fascism's biggest aryan-fest. She knew what she was doing but didn't care because it helped her career. Why do we keep on returning to this over-rated photographic Faust?

 

The only highlight of the '36 Olympics was Jesse Owens. That's a piece of film I always enjoy watching.

Her films are nothing to write home about, the subject and historical

interest overweigh anything else, and are the reason for her fame - a

lot of better films have been made in pre-war (and pre-nazi) germany.

 

The films are OK, and certainly she is both a good photographer and

filmmaker and nazi, but these films are absolutely not the work of a

genius. Olympia has some bright scenes and many boring lenghts, the

propaganda fils are just that - propaganda, and the subject makes it

hardly bearable for me to sit through the entire film.

She was in the right place at the right time. And she was a good

photographer. Why? Because she had a vision. Unfortunately, it was an evil

vision. For that reason, while I've seen bits of her movie, and friends have her

book on Nuba tribesmen, I've never wanted to investigate her further. <p>

I recently read an absolutely stunning book on Albert Speer, His Battle With

Truth by Gitte Sereny, and Riefenstahl crops up quite frequently - they almost

became lovers, because they were both talented artists, working for the

Fuhrer. Speer, by avowing remorse, and a kind of honesty, was seen as a

lesser villian, but ultimately his guilt was inescapable. It turns out, too, that he

lied in an attempt to lessen his guilt. <p>Riefenstahl didn't even acknoweldge

any guilt in one interview I saw with her, only self-justification. When I saw

she;d died I felt no sadness, only relief in that it put an end to one person who

was ultimately repellent. <p>

Bad people can make good art. But art in a bad cause can't be good.

As for the question of... "why do we keep returning" .. then I should apologise for that because I was not aware of her until recently.

 

As for the subject (Nazism, WW2, propaganda, etc) this is not a closed book and these subjects are always relevant as each new generation looks to its history and requests explanations. No-one can ever (and should never) turn to such people and say... "This is painful/boring/difficult and you should not ask"

Something I have just learnt is that the film won the "Medaille d'Or" and the "Grand prix de France" even as late as 1937 which suggests that if the judges of these prizes admired the film without realising the full implications of what lay behind the Nazi regimes philosophy and intent then it is just (theoretically) possible that a mesmerised young female director didn't realise either. (Could she have known the full consequences of what she was contributing to in advance of them happening? Would she have been privy to the Nazi leaderships plans?)

 

Even here in England (deeply regrettable in hindsight) people at all levels of society and influence were gulled by what was happening in Germany in the early 1930's and favoured appeasement right up until (almost) the outbreak of war in 1939. Luckily there were stubborn old 'visionaries' like Churchill who doggedly stuck to his line and managed to lift the veil from our eyes just in time to prepare.

 

What chance did she have of seeing what so many in the USA and UK and France couldn't especially as she didn't have the benefit of a foreign intelligence service to clue her in to what we all know now?

 

Her attitudes after the war and her refusal/denials in the face of overwhelming evidence were a mistake and it would have been better for her to admit to her part in what transpired and express apology and regret. But in 1934 I doubt if she could have known more than she was told.

 

Even major global corporations like IBM still get away without any thorough public/legal scrutiny of their activites in helping the Nazis in their ghastly 'projects', it is left to popular investigative writers to research and present the evidence and not Governments.

"Because she had a vision. Unfortunately, it was an evil vision."

 

Don't confuse Riefenstahl with Hitler. She produced Nazi propaganda, an unforgivable mistake; however, if not for her talent, there would be no controversy. What is most troubling about 'Triumph', is how well it's done... it gives an insight into propaganda that is particularly relevant today. Just think of it in contrast to the USA WWII propaganda films - it's night and day.

I have sympathy for the German people who were pulled in Hitler's wake and

didn't know what was happening. But the closer you got to the top, the more

people knew what was going on. Again, if you want a cool, fair assessment of

the guilt of one talented and appparently remorseful person, read the Sereny

book.<p>But otherwise, why SHOULD we make excuses for evil people? My

dad was racially German but fought the Nazis when they invaded Poland,

while 25 per cent of his countrymen were slaughtered (by the Nazis and the

Russians). Everyone had a choice, and she advanced a cause whose evil

nature all involved eventually understood, merely to further her own career.

And she still espoused her cause decades later. <p>

I don't find this subject repellent, I find it fascinating, and from recent reading I

know much more about Stalin's guilt. I also realise that the Nazis had a great

line in technology, graphic design, you name it. People like her made the

Nazi dream more attractive. And as far as I understand, her photos of the

Nuba didn't represent empathy with another race - they represented

exploitation.

It's a good thing the public at large has such a short memory, because TV ads have been ripping off Leni's work for ages. Her work - I'm thinking of "Olympia" in particular - might seem a bit stale now because it's been copied to death, but it must have been startling in its day.

"three tripple-X and a Woody Alen" - Bill, that's interesting. Do 3 triple-x movies compensate for the de-arousing effect of a woody allen movie? :)

not that i am a fan of the oscar awards, but she was given an applause there

last year. in hollywood...of all places!

on the other hand, i think she is an admirable woman.