Leica M6 Classic verses Leica M6 TTL

Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by frank granovski, Jul 18, 2005.

  1. "M6 TTL 999: the Leica script and special 999 numbers are PAINTED on instead of engraved. ugh. Sorry folks, personally I would not invest in this one." ---Stephen Gandy's cameraquest dot com.

    I don't care about the Leica lenses because I believe they are all great---plastic or no plastic. While the M6 Classic is the non-TTL version, I understand the M6 TTL works perfectly with a hotshoe'd flash without having to worry about adjusting the F-stop. Since I couldn't find which of these 2 beauts have the beefier build quality, I'm curiuos to know how the best one compares with the professional Leica M4-P and the bigger Leica M5. Are they worth the extra money or is it better to go with what Stephen Gandy wrote? I wish to expand my Leica M buyer's guide.
     
  2. I'd like to nominate Mr. Granovski for a hero icon.
     
  3. I can't even understand the question...

    Only the last few TTL's have any faugh engravings. The 100 thousand M6ttl's out there in the world have none.

    You are confusing two different things. The M6 "classic" has no TTL flash, the M6ttl does and is a bit taller and the shutter speed dial is bigger and travels in a different direction.

    Those are the only differences between the two cameras.
     
  4. Frank, I'm curious as to what factors or criteria are you considering to compare the M4P, the M5, the M6 and the M6TTL. Can you explain it in terms other than "build quality"?
    Thanks.
    PS. Your question was meant to say "M6 Classic versus instead of verses, I believe. Versus implies opposition, whereas verses is just the plural of the English noun verse.
     
  5. I like the TTL much better, the bigger dial is not a pain in the ass like the smaller "Classic".
     
  6. I, for one, can't wait for the Leica M buyer's guide to be completed.
     
  7. I have the M4-P, if I ever wanted a metered model I would get the Classic. My reason is that I use the Leica rangefinder without flash only, since the Leica system has fast lenses good for available light shots. Also I find Leica's flash sync speed is too slow, so when I need flash I use my Nikon D70 (1/500 sec x-sync) and the Nikon SB800 speedlight combo. IMHO why pay more for the ttl I wouldn't ever use and have the shutter dial go in a different direction than my M4-P.

    However, I don't need the M6 since the MR-4 meter couples directly to my M4-P and gives me meter readings without complicating my simple reliable, elegant camera. Anyway, Leica's in my view are for grabbing candid shots and not drawing attension to the photographer and once you flash everyone knows you are there.
     
  8. A fairly good buyer's guide:

    <http://www.imx.nl/photosite/leica/mseries/choosem.html>

    ...with a limited number of "Puts-isms."

    --Mitch/Bangkok
     
  9. I thought one camera was versing the other; too odd.
     
  10. "...and once you flash everyone knows you are there."

    Yes, that usually draws attention to yourself. :)
     
  11. Thank you for the feedback. One of our members suggested the M6 and F3. Since I'm not interested in SLRs anymore, but 35mm cameras, Leica and Bessa are pretty much my only choices. Last time I checked, Leo's didn't even have one Bessa in stock so that I could at least look at one---that's the new ones: the R2A and the R3A. Basically I was hoping for M6 and M6 TTL user feedback, and how they compare with the M4-P and M5. It's not like I can go look at these in Vancouver. None of the local shops have any; and when I hit the next Leica swap meet (which is coming up fast), I'd like to have a few opinions formed. I'm sorry my post wasn't clear, but you know me. ;*)
     
  12. Frank - Gandy's comments refer to the "M6TTL 999". That was a special run of the "last 999 M6TTL's to be made" - specially "engraved" - right around the time the M7 came out. The "painted on numbers" comments don't pertain to the bulk of the M6TTL's made beforehand.

    Some people like the TTL's features (mainly the shutter dial) and some people don't. Personally I like them. To each his own.
     
  13. Re: "Frank, I'm curious as to what factors or criteria are you considering to compare the M4P, the M5, the M6 and the M6TTL. Can you explain it in terms other than 'build quality?'"

    I wish I knew.

    Solidness, ergonomics, reliability.
     
  14. Ergonomically I think the larger "opposite direction" dial of the TTL is better. Those that don't like it usually don't because it is different from what they're used to or different from the dial on their other camera(s).
     
  15. Another benefit of the TTL is the slightly more sensitive exposure meter and display readout with two triangles (for over and under) and a circle in the middle to indicate correct exposure. In the old one you have to judge the brigthness of two triangles.
     
  16. I guess maybe I'll worry about it when my M2 bodies get worn out.
     
  17. Frank, take a trip down to Seattle and see what Glazers has. They are an excellent Leica dealer and likely have a better stock than Leos. They may also have some unbiased answers to your many questions. :)
     
  18. Frank, the most important question to ask yourself is if you want a camera with a built-in meter or not.

    If the answer is yes, then try to find an M6 or M6ttl. Whichever one you can find at a good price will do.

    If the answer is no, then M2's, M3's and M4's have great finders and better build quality than the M4-2 and M4-P. If you plan to use a 35mm lens, then the M3 isn't the best choice because it lacks 35mm framelines in the viewfinder, otherwise it is considered by many to be THE classic Leica.

    I have an M2, M3, M6, and a non-pristine CL.
     
  19. Frank, in your quest for a rangefinder camera, I recommend that you adopt Vitruvius' criteria for architecture: 'Firmness, Commodity, and Delight', either that or Walter McCutcheon's criteria, but that is a longer story.
     
  20. >>>Basically I was hoping for M6 and M6 TTL user feedback, and how they compare with the
    M4-P and M5.<<<

    That's exactly what's in the Puts's M buyer's guide for which I gave the url:

    http://www.imx.nl/photosite/leica/mseries/choosem.html
     
  21. Does Glazers have a website?

    It sounds like I should have just bought a new M6 TTL from B&H when they had them on sale. Oh, well. 6 weeks and counting until the Leica swap meet. I think I'll wear my silk suit. It's professional black.
     
  22. "It is clear that collectors wish to have pristine bodies which look as unused as possible. The only exception are the black paint bodies, which should look worn out." ---from the website you just posted.

    Now you now why I'm confused.
     
  23. You're confused because you don't seem to know how to read: in the first sentence you're
    quoting he's talking about what collectors want. In the next one he says what users look for.
    And the rest of the note has a very clear comparison of the various models and how they
    differ in quality. Does someone have to summarize the conclusion for you so that you can
    ubnderstand it? There is nothing confusing despite the somewhat stilted English.
     
  24. The only conclusion I read was that the M6 needed adjustments more often than the M2/3/4, meaning these older models are better. See here:


    "Bottom line we should accept that the M6 is as reliable and durable as an older one, is assembled with the same or even higher precision and tighter tolerances as an older one. We should also note that the M6 has an improved viewfinder and some nice additions as the exposure meter. On the other hand the M6 needs to be adjusted in slightly shorter intervals than the M2/3/4 when in heavy duty use and the simplification of some components make it a bit more sensitive on occasion. Let us have no illusions. Any Leica cameramodel can develop a fault. Look at a typical Leica repairshop and you will see every model represented: M3's as well as M6's. The engineering of the current Leica M bodies, the quality of production and the high level of shop testing ensures that a new Leica M will function according to specs and with the reliability and longevity that is part of the charm of the Leica. Engineering is a human act however, and incidentally a fault will occur, such is Murphy's Law."
     
  25. Frank quoted: "the M6 needs to be adjusted in slightly shorter intervals than the M2/3/4 when in heavy duty use".
    Asking the same (or similar) questions again and again on an internet forum does not count as "heavy duty use" for your camera.
    Don't worry, you should be safe.
     
  26. Well, the proof is in the pudding. I posted numerous pics displaying dork bars. So it seems that I already wasted my money on 1 pristine yet unreliable Leica camera. I don't want to make that mistake again. Why is this so difficult to understand the questions? Sherry will not have good news for me tomorrow. She already e-mailed me about my CL this evening.
     
  27. Either M6 will serve you well. Do you want to shoot fill-flash with your Leica? If so, TTL is quite nice. Otherwise, I understand the M6 classic is much easier on batteries. I have an M4 and it is a robust camera. I've handled later models (M6, M7, MP) and they seems very durable too. I doubt you would have the same experiences you've been having with your CL. Make a decision Frank buddy! They all work great!
     
  28. I am temporarily breaking my rule not to post on any of Franks toxic posts. He says.... "It's not like I can go look at these in Vancouver. None of the local shops have any" Bollocks Frank. You know very well that there AT LEAST two Leica dealers in Vancouver and Leica's own official website show two as well. Here is an example which if you really lived in Vancouver or really had any interest in Leica you would know about.... click here ..... I do not believe you have a CL or any Leica camera at all. I doubt you even live in Vancouver or you would have known where the Leica dealers are.
     
  29. ...of course the 2 best reasons to get the M5 is that wonderful meter, and larger size body, which is nice for normal size hands.
     
  30. Frank's strategy is simple....

    Act goofy and wind people up until they make comments or attack in such a way that they themselves will get banned or suspended.

    Be careful not to stray into behaviour that will make a moderator suspect him of anything more than being a bit daft (but otherwise harmless)

    Use the 'broken record' technique until someone snaps and a fight ensues in which some unsuspecting LF member will get kicked out.

    Repeat.
     
  31. Frank,
    Do consider a new Bessa R2A or R3A. they are very nice, I have an R3A and there's no ergonomic problems. If you handle one, you'll like it, I'm sure. Any talk of it perhaps not being robust enough is rubbish. Anyway, a new Bessa with a warranty may be a better choice for you than rolling the dice with regard to a used Leica.
     
  32. And how come Frank has been a member since 2001 but only started posting on Jan 1st 2005 ?

    There is a little more to this than meets the eye. What happened at Nikonians Frank? Someone told us once but I forgot.
     
  33. Yes, we have no more bananas!
     
  34. Oh yes here is what happened at Nikonians... click here
     
  35. Now that moderator really 'fell out of the pram' so what technique did you use there?
     
  36. Trevor, thanks for the tip. That's where I bought my 90mm M Minolta. I didn't know they got a bunch of new-used bodies. A couple of weeks ago they only had 2 beat up CLs and 3 beat up pre-Ms. To answer your questions, no, I don't live in Vancouver and I don't own any cameras. I hope this makes you happy. ;*)
     
  37. Careful Trevor, you're falling under his spell...
     
  38. Poor Frank -- knows nothing; owns nothing.
     
  39. Frank is simply the latest in a long succession of Leica Forum characters. It's a tradition...
     
  40. Buy the M6-TTL Frank. They are much, much newer so there is far less chance that they will have been owned by a possibly deranged and certainly, elderly previous owner who may well have dribbled extensively on it and done Lord knows what else during a long period of senile ownership. Just think about the bacteria man!

    I recently bought a new hardback book myself instead as I didn't want to take the risk of getting germs from taking any photos on old cameras. It is all about this kid called Harry Potter who is a young wizard with a real thing for owls.

    Talking of birds, that was a very interesting picture by Monkey of that rabbit didn't you think? Mrs Sm*th across the hall from my ageing aunt says that she still talks with her now deceased pet rabbit but it won't comment regarding that rabbit driving accusation by Monkey. Maybe there is something in it?

    Personally, I have never been really sure about the TTL's height issue and funny looking, big silly dial but all the M6 classics seem to be black and have lost most of their once professional looking, original shine and I basically needed a pretty chrome one.

    Do say hi to Trevor for me. You two seem to be having fun today.
    I was very shocked to hear though that you don't live in Vancouver any longer and have got rid of all your cameras. Did you move recently? I didn't realise before Trevor's post that you were previous such a Nikon guerilla.

    Tip of the day : If you were just teasing Trevor and do really still have a camera, first pass a wet wipe over it then try shooting some Zebras at your local zoo. That CL may NOT be as pristine as it looks and those black dork bars won't be so noticable there :mad:)
     
  41. Enough is enough. Frank, shell out some cash and get either a new
    Leica MP, M7 or Bessa R2/3A. You'll get warranties to cover all your
    worries and fears. Then, go out and take pictures instead of diddling around on the Leica forum.
     
  42. Trouble is there's no Canadian distributor for Leica and Cosina's Voigtlanders; and Free Trade isn't as free as the sheep, 'er, populace, is lead to believe. Believe it.
     
  43. As Franks posts go this one seems to me to be a "no nonsense" attempt to gain insite and assistance of others in order to gain the knowledge to make a purchase.

    Frank, by buying his CL and G2 showed me that he is more than just talk when it comes to spending money. We all know he owns a CL and if you don't believe him call the people that have worked on the camera and ask them if its worth buying it for parts and see if it exists.

    Now I don't know this forums rules on smearing, defaiming and character assination here, but, repeating ravings from a so called shrink from Nikonians seems to be mean spirited and OT. I think it is beneath you Trever, I usually respect your knowledge and opinions and I am disappointed. Maybe you should and Frank could settle your differences offline in person if you know what I mean and lets get back to photography.

    I think that Frank should try to get to try the New Zeiss rangefinder before making his choice. It seems to have all the right stuff on paper, won't cost that much more than the M5 or M6 and will come with a new camera case and warrantee.
     
  44. Re: "And how come Frank has been a member since 2001 but only started posting on Jan 1st 2005?"

    Do you mean that I should have started posting here back in 2001? Actually, I did post the odd time but then I got banned and forced to Electrofy the Draconians 'til 2005. Finally I got shipped back and here I am. The ride was free (both ways).
     
  45. Frank: Please do not take offence to this, but your questions are becoming annoying (which is why they invoke so much sarcasm). May I suggest you buy a book or two on the Leica M; IMO, Leica M: Advanced Photo School by Gunter Osterloh is one of the best (see the link below). If you do this you may me able to post questions that sound thoughtful and rational rather than as if you just fell off a fruit truck. Best regards, Bill

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-2489863-7788826
     
  46. Funny you should mention that. I did fall off of a truck once. Luckily the company I worked for had insurance.

    I thought my M6/M6TTL feedback request was clear. And I thank all those who responded, including Trevor. Now I should drop off my 3 rolls of film and get some of them scanned to razzle dazzle the crowd.
     
  47. I've owned and used all 4 on jobs. The M6 ttl is by far the superior. The Classic is a close runner up. Unless you're HCB, those of us lower on the food-chain need the meter we can access fast. The M5 has well publicized issues. The M4-P was awesome, but without the meter and shooting chromes.....good luck. Forget that handheld meter stuff of old.
     
  48. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    The guy's an outright liar Trevor, don't get worked up about it. And yes, the shop keepers duck when he walks in. Would you sell him anything? I guess you gathered that by now.
     
  49. Actually, the shop-keepers love me because they know I always buy something, even if it's just a few rolls of film. By the way, it's not nice to call me a liar, Eric~, when you know this is simply not true.
     
  50. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    "Actually, the shop-keepers love me because..."

    can i come along next time? please?

    Frankie baby, you've said too many times that stuff wasn't on the shelves when it was. Including my stuff. do you know off the top off your head what they want for that used noctilux? i almost bought it in may, it's been sitting there for so long. you've mentioned the local papers being dry a couple times when they were a few m bodies around for weeks. You should have grabbed that m3 i reckon. did you check this weeks buy and sell? don't bother, just r stuff again from that fellow in west van. a month ago i mentioned i had a line on an m4-p and had email from others, except from you of course. you're just a talker in a make believe land.

    i've stopped caring and have the same rule as Trevor, but seeing how he broke it, i thought i would too. carry on...
     
  51. Simply put, projection is an autonomic response, a self-defence mechanism, for the insecure. Sadly it's not easily repairable unless the patient first recognizes the disorder and then proceeds with therapy. God bless and may you have the wind at your back. How's that? ;*)
     
  52. No cameras? Didn't you go on the rangefinder forum awhile back stating you purchased a Contax G2? I remember responding to your thread, welcoming you to the G2 world, etc. What's up?
     
  53. I bought the G2 for my wife. It came with the 45mm lens and then I dug deep and got her a new 90mm lens. I wasted my money, though, because the auto focus does not work well with the 90mm glass. Of course the 45mm works great.
     
  54. There have been many early responses about focusing issues with the 90, but I and most others have had zero focus problems. The key is to line up the right side of the bracket with your focal point if at the minimum focusing distance, the left side(or entire viewfinder bracket)if beyond the minimum distance. Give it a try.
     
  55. Hmmm. I could try that next time I take out the G2. However, that 45mm is the sure bet for fast in-focus shots. It's hit or miss with the 90mm, but again, I'll give it a try.
     

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