leica m wedding photography problems

I am a wedding photographer. In the past i have used 2 Canon EOS 1V

cameras both with 24-70/f2.8 USM L series lenses. I decided to

switch to Leica in order to capture a more documentary, whipser

quiet type of wedding photography (as the Canon forced me to shoot a

certain style).

 

I use a Leica MP .72 with 50mm/f2 & leica M7 .58 with 28mm/f2 +

leica M7 .72 with 35mm/f2 - However what i have found is that i seem

to be getting camera shake with both cameras even at 1/60th of a

second. Secondly, attempting to catch moving subjects (bride walking

towards camera in the ceremony for example and any shot that has to

be grabbed extremely fast) is very difficult, i can't gauratee i

will get pin point focus or i miss focus entirely.

 

My question to leica pros's that shoot weddings is -

 

What is you strike rate in focusing with leica, is it hit and miss

like me or do you nail it 100% of the time. What do you do in terms

of moving subjects or images that need to be taken in an instant.

 

Do you get camera shake. I have smallish hands and it's hard to grip

such a small camera. The Canon sits in the palm of my hand and is

therefore well suppoted, whereas the leica is held more with just my

fingers and i dont have such a well supported grip on it. As a

result the camera isnt as stable and it seems to be inducing camera

shake. I am alone in this problem or are there ways to minimise

shake.

 

I adore using these cameras, it allows for a unique style of wedding

photography and is a major selling point to clients whom don't want

the photgrapher to be part of the entertainment. However at very

least a pro should have the subjects sharp 95% of the time and if i

cant achieve this then i might have to go back to the Canon. Believe

me i dont want to, these cameras arnt cheap. My cleints pay me alot

of money and i need to nail a great image on practically every shot

(or at least one thats in focus or not blurred).

 

Hope some leica m wedding photographers can give me a little advice

of their technique or if they have had problems like mine and ways

to remedy them.

 

Many thanks,

 

Eric.

Eric, you should never use any equipment for an event such as wedding until you are totally familiar with it. HCB couldn't have captured all the images if Leica is such a dog. Use the Leica, practice with it and it will soon be second nature without you even have to think about it. The best equipment is always simple and gets out of the way when it comes to getting the job done.

Eric here is one tip that worked for me with either Leica M's or with a Fuji 645

RF camera. One shot you describe, the bride walking down the isle or bride

and groom etc. Frame and focus as they stand at the end of the isle. Keep

them the same size as they walk towards you while you walk backwards. It

works out to about 10 feet if I remember right. I'm talking a vertical shot with a

50mm lens.

 

Also get to know the DOF scale. I did a lot of on camera flash with the M. The

guy I shot for wanted it that way so I was often at 5.6. I did 50% or more of my

wedding grab shots zone focused. If you don't over poser the ambient light

too much with flash, even direct flash it looks fine and colors will be truer.

 

Always worked and all was sharp. Follow focus with an M takes some

learning to do. Not all of the above works if you only shoot natural light and

are at wide lens openings indoors.

Eric, why does the Canon force you to shoot in a certain style? albeit a bit loud. Im sure you could have shot the way you like with either brands. Manage the shuuter loudness if you must.

 

Tracking motion is tough with the M or any manual cameras wide opened. I'll probably have one M and one AF for weddings just to balance things out.

Yes, Eric, focusing a Leica on a moving subject IS difficult and requires a lot of

training. A Canon EOS is much easier to work with, and its weight dampens

camera shake more effectively. But in low light you can take advantage of the

faster Leica lenses and take pictures with no flash. My advice would be not to

give up, and train to focus and dissociating the movement of the index from

the camera. You won't be disappointed.

You're going to need some depth of field to focus moving objects with a manual rangefinder.

Eric,

 

I'm hardly a pro and have never made my living at it, but I have shot an average of 2-3 weddings a year over the last 15 years or so. I don't find shooting and focusing with the Leica any more difficult than with any manual focus camera. In fact, in the dim light of a reception I find the Leica easier to focus than most. Here's a tip for shooting the processional and recessional shots. Prefocus at the point you wish to shoot these shots and fire the camera when the subject walks into that point. As for focusing quickly for grab shots - that just takes practice. I did adopt a focus procedure I read about on this forum. Keep your lens focused at infinity between shots. That way you will always know which direction to start turning the lens to focus. Also, since most of the distances at which you're likely to shoot are closer to the infinity end of the focus throw than the close-up end, you generally have to turn the lens less distance. This method will speed up your focusing time.

 

The advice in the first reply is also good. I don't ever use a new or unfamiliar camera to shoot something important like a wedding. I only use cameras I'm very comfortable with when someone's counting on me to get good shots.

In terms of carrying the Leica-M in your hand, don't they sell Leica grips which you can attach to the body? I've seen it before but I'm not sure if it's a Leica product or 3rd party.

i 'found' travis ;-)

Practice, practice, practice! You should be able to get pretty consistant sharp 1/8 second exposures with a 35mm lens if the subject doesn't move. You need to remain calm, practice your breathing, gently squeeze the release button as you exhale. Support the camera on the tips of your fingers of your left hand. Keep your elbows pressed in against you just above the hips. Keep your feet spread a bit apart and your knees slightly flexed.

 

Yes, walking backwards a set distance from the couple will work. Learn to use your depth of field scale. I'm afraid that you, like many photographers these days, are just so used to having a camera that thinks for you and does everything for you that picking up a Leica is like starting from scratch. Worse! You first have to unlearn most of what you've been doing.

 

You want to get to the point where you don't have to think, just do! Carry a Leica with you everyday. Shoot lots of film. Make using it second nature. Here's an excersize to try: Focus on a sign or light pole about 8 or so feet away. Focus carefully, now! Then as you walk down the street every time you think you're the right distance from another light pole put the camera up to your eye and see if the rangefinder is aligned, without adjusting it! Another day try doing the same thing at about 5 feet. You'll get better and better at it. But it's not a camera that you can take out of the box, load with film, and expect it to do the work for you. You need to put in the effort. You WILL be rewarded for it!

Well, blurry shots can be passed off as "art".... Seriously though, you're going to have to put in the practice time to get good with a Leica shooting moving targets - no way around it.

first off the Leica is NOT for everyone!Yes you do indeed need more practice.Following moving subjects with RF tricky.You either use zone focus plus flash(which ruins the whole Leica gambit) or focus on a pre-determined spot.Tough if the expressions are'nt there!As an old photographer...one whats wrong with the EOS? I know i hated mine..but it did everything it was supposed to!Focus way better!The noise factor is simply not true.Canon Eos,esp the hi-end models are quiter than a Leica.Not if on motor drive.My simple advice is to continue to use the Canons(but with better lenses,not zooms)Two or three lenses at most.A 28/35 about f2.8,50mmf1.8 and an 85/105 f2.o/2.8.A longer zoom not necess. a pro zoom.70~210 f4.0.A diffusion filter and a few dedicated strobes.The Leica is for the quiter moments.The very personal "snaps" and for the portraits where you are not on the run.I love my Leicas but with todays clients with zero attention span,ya better off with total automation!!Yes most of my sales come from the Leica.The main part of album is from slr's.Canon,Nikon or Pentax.Whatever.Only one make of slr at any wedding!!I did a "Diamond 2000 Promotion" in a very fancy restaurant in Santa Monica,where the light was nil.The M3 focused easily and using strobes all the photos were acceptable and all were sharp, using the 50mm Summicron collapsible,of each couple arriving.THe main problem was reloading! The M3 is s...l...o..w!

Well i guess so is the MP!!I guess the bug hit real hard if you invested in all that equipment without slowly getting your feet wet!

In time the Leica will force the other cameras out of the equipment bag...You are in for a hard learning curve.Is it worth it? Look at the fans and fanatics here!! I am also one!!

Eric:

 

I don't do weddings but I do a lot of theater work, usually with low lighting, which is why I like Leica & the fast lenses. I'm no kid, and this works for me.

 

1) Get a grip or a Luigi half case with built in grip.

 

2) Use a "softie" from Tom Abrahamsson. this is controversial, because some users don't like it, but it works for me.

 

3) Get a lens holder, the type that attaches to the tripod screw and has a bayonet mount for holding a lens. Use the "other" lens as a grip.

 

4) Learn to brace yourself. when I shoot below 1/250, I keep my elbows in, particularly my right elbow, I keep my back straight, and my weight as much over my hips as possible, with one leg slightly behind the other. I know this sounds weird, but it isn't, and no one notices anyway.

 

5) Learn to press the camera with your left hand against your forehead and use the ball of your finger and press straight down on the center of the softie.

 

FWIW, I took four shots of my wife and grandson with a 90 mm, 2.0 at 1/30, at about 6-8 feet. Two were OK, and the other two blew up to almost 8x10 and are still sharp.

 

Finally, you probably figured this out yourself, grab several

"candid" shots early on with the SLR as insurance, then switch to the Leica.

 

Happy snaps.

Eric,

 

".... found is that i seem to be getting camera shake with both cameras even at 1/

60th of a second."

 

You "should" be able to hand hold an M down to 1/30th of a second without much of

a problem. And, down to 1/15th of a second with a bit of practice.

 

I suspect you're over-gripping the camera, which could be leading to the camera

shake. It's a huge change in weight going from your Canon to a Leica M.

 

"...attempting to catch moving subjects (bride walking towards camera in the

ceremony for example and any shot that has to be grabbed extremely fast) is very

difficult, i can't gauratee i will get pin point focus or i miss focus entirely."

 

Use hyperfocal distance settings and you should be able to get that shot you want! As

Neil said... you can use flash and still have a natural looking photograph. Using flash

should give you the ability to close down your lens.

 

And, as Al said, "Practice, practice, practice." He's absolutely right in that this isn't a

camera one takes out of the box and expect to work for you right away.

 

Al, I like your exercise so much... I think I'll integrate it into my everyday practice.

Thanks for the great idea!

 

In the meantime, Eric, it may be a good idea to use your Canon(s) as well. Follow the

sage advice and you'll soon be reaping the rewards.

 

Good luck

 

Cheers

Eric,

 

One more thing... As Arthur suggests, try using a grip with your camera.

 

I use the Abrahamsson Grip, which is a bit heavier and sturdier than the Leica version,

and I wouldn't go a day without it on one of my cameras.

 

Cheers

DO get a Grip. I have the M-Grip from GMP and it helps...especially with long lenses.

 

Funny thing....I just shot a wedding last week using an M3, M4 and Nikon D100 and Nikon

N-90. I missed a lot more shots due to the AF not tracking in low light than I did with the

Leicas.

 

You might consider using one Techy camera....AF/AE on a Flash Bracket for the times

when they really come in handy.

 

jmp

I use "Slings" on my Leicas at my wedding shoots. Find them at leicagoodies.com for about

$5. They also allow you to 'hang' your M's off your hands, but keeping them at the ready,

but allowing your arm/hand to relax.

 

Sometimes for that fast walk from the alter I use a Canon 1n on one-shot mode or AI-

mode autofocus, as that is tricky, as is the occasional outdoor fill-flash that the Canon

handles with aplomb. Otherwise, everything else is a piece of cake for the M.

I shoot ten to twenty weddings year, and at this point I shoot about 90% with M bodies for this work. I think the most important thing is to remember how differently rangefinders and SLRs focus. Many posters before me have pointed out how difficult it is to follow focus with a rangefinder. Also mentioned was the use of d.o.f. table on your lens, and zone focusing. The underlying theme here is that achieving proper focus with a rangefinder is very different from doing so with an SLR. It is important to use very different technique when using a rangefinder camera than when using an SLR. Would you try to use a fork the same way you'd use a spoon? Forget everything you know about using an SLR when it comes to focusing- they are totally different beasts. Rather than spend your shooting time looking through the camera's tunnel-vision through-the-lens finder, look at the world around you. Watch your surroundings directly. When you want to make a photo, bring the camera to your eye, and view through the little thing, still looking at the subject. Rather than try to manipulate the mechanism in your hand, set the focus point once and then move with the subject; or pre-focus and shoot when they get to that point. Only tweak along the way as you need to. More often, I change focus point when I want to change composition, i.e. distance to subject. You have to learn to use the strengths and abilities of the tool- as it is. Don't try to use it like you would an SLR! There are lots of tricks and techniques you can employ to get good results with your rangefinder cameras, and I encourage you to seek this information out. Some good ideas have been laid out above, and many many more can be found on the web and elsewhere, but I suggest that the main thing is to treat the task as totally different from SLR focusing. Once you start thinking like this, and you learn how to really use this different tool, applying different technique, your percentage of keepers will shoot right back up to about where it was with the Canons. I get about 90% of my shots in focus now, even wide open. And I spend less time, less energy and less thought getting sharp focus now than when I used SLRs. Now that time, energy and concetration gets focused on the situation I am shooting, not the tools I use. When you get good with this, you will understand why some folks claim (and I think rightly so) that a rangefinder is even faster than an AF SLR- it ain't only the super short shutter lag. Enjoy!

If your lenses have a focusing tab, learn the positions of the tab for the usual distances. You can then pre-focus quite accurately without even looking at or through the camera. You can also immediately feel (with your finger) if your camera is focused too close or too far.

 

I read this advice on this forum a while ago and it helped me focus faster.

Take a look at Jeff Ascough's work. http://www.jeffascough.com

 

If you have any doubts what-so-ever about using a M for weddings, his work will make

them evaporate.

 

I've always used a M at weddings (click on my name and go to my PN wedding folder. 80%

of the B&Ws were shot with a M). Current kit includes two M7s, lenses from 28/2 to 90/

2AA (each the fastest available in their focal length). I do occasionally use a SF20 flash with

an S-Fill diffuser from Lutz. In the cases where I need DOF for critical focusing while the

subject is in motion, I turn on the flash and set a smaller f stop. The rest I do available

light, mostly wide open.

 

If and when I use any manual focus lens for processional shots, I pre-focus the lens at the

correct distance for a full height figure, and wait for the subjects to enter the zone of

focus and shoot. With a M, the extra viewfinder area around the frame lines allows you to

to see when they've reached something like the edge of a certain pew for example. Most of

the time I use flash for processionals because it's allowed and you can set f/5.6 or so to

add a bit more DOF. I found that getting arty with the bride & dad coming down the aisle

is a waste of time and is a dangerous practice. I usually just use a AF Canon for these

shots anyway.

 

But for candids, you can't beat a M IMO. People just don't take note of you as much. Kind

of like how Motorcycles don't seem to command the attention of other drivers the same as

a Mack Truck would ; -)

 

As to camera shake, lay off the coffee before a wedding. Only Al Kaplan can consume a

couple of pots of Java and still have the steadiness of a 3 day old corpse. Grab the camera

firmly, but not with a death grip. Center your head over your spine and spread your feet

about shoulder width apart to avoid sway. Breathe through your nose, and use your

diaphragm rather than inflating your chest. Practice focusing yourself, not just the lens.

The M system demands practice until it is second nature and requires little or no thinking,

just intuition and muscle memory.

 

That all said, expecting a 100% hit ratio from any camera is wishful thinking IMO... or it

means you aren't taking enough risks.<div></div>

Deeply appreciate all your responses - they are all extremely helpful.

 

Luckily at all weddings i had my assistant cover key moments with the Canons (which I must add are wonderful cameras) so i was never in the situation where i found myself having to push "art" based diana camera like images to clients when in fact it would have been a mess up on my part.

 

I guess practice will remedy all my issues. I think i am most definately gripping the thing way too tightly hence inducing camera shake and i think im depressing the shutter too hard as well (as i would with the Canon to compensate for the SLR lag). As far as focusing, i will take all your advice on board and use it - many thanks.

 

My issues with these cameras are just things i will have to absorb and learn over time. I've have never had issues with the loading, unloading of leicas as some people do, as iv had to load Penatx 67's, Rollei TLRs, 4x5"s (in darkness) as an high end commercial/advertising photographers assistant, so leicas seem fairly easy to me.

 

I will lay off the coffee and i must add Jeff Ascough's wedding images are a great example of what wedding photography can be - delicate, quiet and pure reportage - very refreshing work.

 

regards,

 

Eric.

Eric,

 

I'm no full pro (yet) but I do shoot weddings with M7's as well.

 

Camera shake at 1/60th you should be able to improve. As the others have mentioned practise and laying off the coffee already I would like to add that a Leica Grip can help improve your grip on the camera as well as a soft release that you can screw into your shutter release button. The Sling can also help secure your grip so that you don't grip it too tightly but still have a secure hold of the camera.

 

Focussing on moving objects is a pain indeed with any manual focus camera but practise pays off. Lots of good tips there. I also pre-focus but I'm considering adding a AF camera for the procession and the first dance. The other day I had a couple that had a waltz as their first dance and the moved across the floor so quickly that I had a hudge problem trying to keep up. I ended up shooting them at F16 and pushing the film to 1600 to get a shot.

Eric you may want to pick up the sport of shooting air pistol, it requires good trigger pull (ie shutter action) and a steady hand, BTW you don't need permits etc because it's not a firearm, it's cheaper than film. You also can practice taking pictures without film, ditto the focusing part. It shouldn't take more than a week to get your shutter squeeze and focusing down.

 

BTW don't think that Mark and Al make perfect shots all the time, they had a post here 4 weeks ago of wedding in Miami, with some great shots on a roll, however there were duds in it also.

 

Gerry

No, Marc and I don't get all perfect shots, nor do we expect to! On the other hand if you go over to the wedding forum you'll find people who only shoot in bursts of 10 or 12 frames and think nothing of exposing 1,000 frames at a wedding (using digital)and hoping that the law of averages worked in their favor. Marc works with Leica rangefinders, Canon SLR's and a Hasselblads. A couple of years ago I got rid of my 'blad system and my Leica R system~ I just wasn't getting enough use out of them.

 

Marc talked me into shooting Mykal's wedding with him after several years of avoiding weddings, but now I've booked a few more. I'm not in the least worried about doing the whole thing with M Leicas and getting the photos in sharp focus, whether with flash at f/5.6 or 4, or shooting at f/2 with natural light. The more you use the Leicas, the more you practice, the better you'll get!

As far as I know, the renown <a href="http://www.fredmarcus.com/">high society wedding photog family</a> uses Leica for their photojournalistic shots, too. This was brought up many times in Andy Marcus's book, <i>Wedding Photojournalism: Techniques and Images in Black & White</i>.