Leica IIIf flash operation?

I am purchasing a Leica IIIf RD from a friend tomorrow. I have used many Leicas including M6, M3, III, and IIIC, but never a screw mount with a flash option. How does this work? 1) what is the max synch speed? and 2) what are the numbers on the scale for under the shutter speed dial? All other operations I am familiar with. Thanks.

The following is for the red dial IIIf only. I have listed the

electronic flash info. If you want the info for flash bulb just let me

know what kind of bulbs.

 

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electronic flash / 1/50 shutter speed / set sync dial to 20

electronic flash / T, 1 - 1/25 shutter speed / set sync dial to 0

electronic flash / B shutter speed / set sync dial to 2

The following is for the red dial IIIf only. I have listed the

electronic flash info. If you want the info for flash bulb just let me

know what kind of bulbs.

 

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electronic flash / 1/50 shutter speed / set sync dial to 20

 

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electronic flash / T, 1 - 1/25 shutter speed / set sync dial to 0

 

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electronic flash / B shutter speed / set sync dial to 2

I'm going to risk being wrong, and say those numbers can't possibly be

true. The ONLY time when the whole film is simultaneously available

for an electronic flash exposure (that is, when the shutter isn't

moving across in a slit) is at the crossover speed between the shutter

speed dials--1/20th or 1/30th, I don't remember which is on that

camera. Any other faster speed will result in a partial-frame

exposure.

 

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The dial under the shutter speed indicates how much ahead of the

shutter's opening the flash is touched off. Bulbs require some

ignition time and are lit a bit ahead--15-20 for most bulbs (those

numbers are 1/1000s of seconds). Electronic flash fires immediately,

without a warm-up time, and the 0 setting is used. This is in an ideal

world, and tests are sometimes needed with these cameras to make sure

those numbers are OK.

I will run a test on this today and get back to you. I will also try

to find a book. The notion that the "delay" numbers are an advance

firing scale does seem to make sense since the old bulbs needed time

to reach maximum illumination before the shutter fully opened. I'll

give a report on this.

I'm with Michael.

 

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rick :)=

Michael raises interesting impediments to the flash sync info

from Leica. The red dial IIIf cameras (IIf RD and If RD as well of

course) have a redesigned shutter from the earlier cameras. The

slowest speed on the high speed train is 1/50. This is the fastest

speed where the curtains are fully open. The earlier cameras

had the slowest speed on the high speed train as 1/25. Some

black dial cameras had the improved shutter as well, though I

cannot say whether the shutter dial was changed to take

advantage of this, and earlier cameras that were repaired or

updated might have the newer shutter installed too. Unlike the M

cameras, with the sync operating through the actual movements

of the shutter curtains, the IIIf cameras sync through the shutter

timing mechanism itself ( i.e. the rotating shutter dial). This

means that the sync dial has to be set to seemingly weird

numbers when using the slow speed train even though

electronic flash is being used. The slow speed train, or more

correctly escapement, does its thing before the regular action is

allowed to trigger the second curtain. So the flash has to be

triggered earlier than if the camera is on the high speed train

(1/50). I wish I could go into more detail but I am already

stretching my limited screwmount mechanical knowledge to the

limit. Cheers.

What I did: today I took two snaps...one at 1/50 on dial #20 and one

at 1/25 on dial #0. this is a red dial, by the way. I will process

it tonight and report. This mechanism is also beyond my limited

brain!

 

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Incidently, what is the difference between a IIIf, IIf, and If? My

serial number is: 612705. According to Stephen Grandy's Camera Quest

site this number is a IIf, but it looks identical to the IIIf's I've

seen and was advertised as a IIIf. No big deal, but I am curious.

 

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Thank you.

Of course as soon as I posted I found a black dial camera with

the slowest speed of 1/30. Further digging resulted in me not

finding any IIIf cameras with a 1/50 slowest speed on the high

speed train but I remember that the IIIg is similar (slowest speed

on the high speed train is 1/30) and it will sync at 1/50 with

electronic flash. Sorry for the confusion. :-(

 

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The IIIf has a full range of speeds from T, B, 1 sec to 1/1000. The

IIf has no slow speed escapement so the slowest speed is 1/25

or 1/30 depending on the camera. The If has no slow speed

escapement and no rangefinder or viewfinder but it does have

two accessory shoes to mount finders and what not.

From Todd:

 

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My unit has a full range of speeds so it is a IIIf. Evidently Camera

Quest's serial number list is incorrect.

 

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I'm still totally cornfuzed about this flash issue. I guess the best

way is to experiment, but there are so many possible combinations.

 

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Does anyone have a manual or a guide book they could scan a page on

flash use, and send it to me or post it here? I can't find any

guides locally.

 

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I'm probably not going to do more than 5% or so flash with this

camera, so sorry about making such a big deal out of it. Appreciate

the time y'all are puttin' in on this!

 

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Todd

 

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Thanks.

I will send you a scan but it is just repeating what I wrote already.

GULP! (The sound of me swallowing words, mine.) Well, the thing to

remember is that the transitional speed between the dials is the max

electronic flash synch speed, whatever that speed is. . . . and I do

think that the 0-20 dial is advance firing in ms, which shouldn't be

needed with that transitional speed, at least. I guess you need to

shoot a shot with each shutter speed, at each advance setting, so that

would be. . . . . 21x12 or so. . . . only 252 tests. But if you went

in increments of 2/1000 on the synch dial, and only did the low

speeds, below about 1/250 that would only mean about 100 trials--might

as well keep it simple :-)

"Test" results....big test...2 shots. Yep, Michael, thought there

might be a few more if we did every combination!

 

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I did 1/50 at #20 and 1/25 at #0.

 

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They both produced a full negative...no cut-off areas. That's the

good news.

 

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The 1/50 was about 2 stops underexposed. The 1/25 was dead on. Why?

 

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Guess I'll try again...maybe it was the flash.

Perhaps the 1/50th exposure was two stops off because the flash went

off when the shutter was closed and the picture was shot with

entirely ambient light? That would be my guess. You know, it's not

necessary to blow a lot of film to figure this out. Take out the

film, and replace it with a sheet of white paper. Remove the lens and

point the flash at the shutter. Fire. Do you see white paper, or

black shutter? How much of each? Adjust until you see all white

paper, all the time.

Michael, you're correct! In the test photo there is a computer

screen. In the 1/25 sec exposure the flash burst appears in the

computer screen. In the 1/50 it does not. Your analysis is

correct. I will try the paper trick.

 

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I must not become obsessive about this!...the only reason I asked

this question is that I want to use this camera for b/w photos when I

photograph weddings, mainly available light, with a top viewer, zone

focus, but will need to use flash occasionally. I'm even thinking

about doing some infrared wedding images with it...never done that. I

have no problem using 1/25 of a second...that is very handholdable

with this camera. What's nice is that the III series cameras are so

quiet and small, I can get some really fine candid wedding photos

(even with a tiny flash) not always possible with a big visible SLR

or MF. Am I crazy!?

Here's what happened:

 

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I tried the white paper test...Interesting trick: it creates an

intense visual afterimage and you can "see" exactly what's happening

after the flash has fired!

 

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1/25 at 0 setting...full white image through lens port. 1/50 at 20

setting...no white image. 1/50 at 0 setting only 2/3 white image.

Different increments until about 10...then nothing.

 

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Regardless of what the Leica charts indicate, on my camera (IIIf RD)

the only electronic flash sync that works is 1/25 at 0 setting.

 

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I can live with that. Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

<p>John Collier is correct with his specs...</p>

<p>Regardless of shutter speed, if you can see the full frame image with the flash, the "flash" <strong>exposure</strong> can only be affected by distance or aperture, not the speed selected.</p>

<p>See the difference in the Red Dial vs. the Black Dial shutter speed dial designs. The Red Dial version, because of it's two piece design can easily (in 50 plus years), have been erroneously set during a service. (See picture below)</p><div></div>