Leica Forum: A Severe Case of the Flu

<p>Aside from Alex's post there are a total of 60 comments here in the past week. There used to be well over that in one day. Ask a question and you can be grateful for one response.</p>

<p>Why? I have my thoughts about it, but in any case many Leica buffs and loyalists have been driven away or migrated elsewhere. </p>

<p>In my opinion too much hostility. Hostility towards Leica in general, and hostility towards Leica digital in particular.</p>

<p>Yup.</p>

<p>Front and center of course is the M8. Yes it has workaround issues but it's a great camera. In some ways it's better than any Leica M ever made. You'd never know it though with the internet chatter and noise that's arisen since its unveiling. People saw a couple flubs in the production and release and wouldn't accept them and make the effort to dig deeper to find out there's a gem of a camera there. And people who would never have any intention of buying or using any Leica in the first place had something to sink their teeth into- as if a juicy steak had just been dropped onto their plate.</p>

 

<p>I rarely go to LUG, #1 because I hate the navigation. But at least there you're more likely to run into somebody that knows something. Such a shame that minor detail is slowly but steadily vanishing here.</p>

I think the slow death of film may have something to do with it. Also the topics of the various forums overlap. Some Leica stuff appears in "Clasic cameras" and some in "Digital".

<p>Everyone has their own opinions of course, but it seems too many people can't leave it at that. It gets out of hand, the name-calling starts, and another person is left with a bad taste. It happens over and over, and over time it takes its toll. Bad behavior unchecked.</p>

<p>I have also noticed what you are saying.</p>

<p>For myself, I am constantly busy planning photo shoots, going out for shooting, and the endless processing of both film and digital. It seems there is never enough time. I have 7 photobooks on wwww.blurb.com, so I must be getting something done! Not to mention downloading and evaluating new software that is promised to make life soooo much easier LOL.</p>

<p>So my first hope is that Leica users are out shooting, not yacking about how many mp's they have etc.</p>

<p>Perhaps another answer is that Leica is old. even the M8. What that means is the salad days are over, and most questions have been asked and answered many times. That means we can get on with photography.</p>

<p>Last week I added a Lumix G1 to my M7/M8 lineup, so I will also be spending time getting adapters ordered, searching out compatible lenses in addition to Leica etc. There is always something to do. I can only say that information from this forum has been very valuable in what I am doing photographically. And I always enjoy and am inspired by the photos I see here.</p>

<p>Best wishes to all.<br />Carol</p>

<p>Rangerfinderforum seems to attract more discussion.</p>

<p>A period of heavy handed moderation didn't help. Many people left.</p>

<p>Here is how I answered a similar question in the Calssic Camera forum:</p>

 

 

<p>People come and go on forums all the time. The old faces are replaced by new ones who then become the old faces. Some leave because they have gotten all they are going to get out of a particular forum, some leave because they find something they like better elsewhere on he internet (RFF is a good example in this case), some leave because their interests change and photography is no longer important, some leave because family/job/life becomes more time consuming and captivating, and yes some leave in anger (or are removed) because they decide that they just can't get along with the way a particular forum is run.</p>

<p>After over a dozen years of existance, there are any number of people from photo.net who have floated off to other places. As a community, it's pretty natural to say "what happened to so and so" but to be honest, that's the way of the internet. We're all just 1's and 0's here and there is nothing like a home or a business that ties us to any one spot. Heck, after a dozen years, I know for a fact that more than a few former PN users are simply no longer alive. As we all know, time marches on.</p>

<p>And then there is the simple fact that film based forums (like this one or the Classic or MF/LF forums) have suffered in recent years as people have moved more and more to digital. There are a lot of people who you might think are gone from these forums, but have simply stopped posting because they no longer use a Leica or a Brownie or a ______ (fill in the blank). They post in the Digital Darkroom forum or the Canon forum or simply in the NW forum. Crappy perhaps, but in today's world people tend to only be involved with what they are interested in right now. Some will come back (I myself am a good example of that in regards to Leica), but some will just become an "old face" in their new digital based forum.</p>

<p>Finally, fighting the "jerks who just post to crap on Leica" battle is pretty difficult. Leave those posts up, and they discourage the Leica fans who just want to talk about their cameras and photography without their decisions being mocked or attacked. Delete those posts, and people freak out about over-moderation. The Leica forum has always been a place of higher emotion than many other PN forums, and this is just one of the issues that makes it difficult. I'm a Leica and rangefinder fan and I would love to see the Leica forum get some new blood, new activity, and fewer jerk posts attacking leica for no good reason. However, I'm at a loss as to how to do that. If you have ideas, please drop me an <strong>email</strong> and we can discuss it. <strong>However, please don't get into a photo.net policy discussion here.</strong> Those never really go anywhere but down to insult-ville and we won't accomplish anything but bad feelings.</p>

<p><strong>Again: you + ideas = email me.</strong></p>

 

<p>Nothing at all to do with digital or the M8. Jim and the others are right. It's a very tough school. Have a look at the WedNEdDAy pic on the Nikon forum. More words than your average W/NW but so courteous. Maybe the photography is better too. On Rangefinder Forum anything may come up including my new Olympus gear for some reason. Awful navigation there too. Lots of pnet survivors who are relieved to be gone it seems. I have been thinking in just the last few days of starting a ThURsday pic on this forum to follow the model of the wonderful thread on Nikon which is growing every week, but I don't shoot enough and think I am too busy. No I am not too scared. I love the picture of the week but we are waiting to almost the end of the weekend here in Australia. It is very 'street'. Not enough colour. Love Steve Deer's shores and Tom Higgings' seascapes. I am sure we need to loosen up and lighten up. Good post Ray. This place is dying while others are thriving.</p>

<p>Interesting that Ken Rockwell has become a big fan of Leica in the last year touting the M7 film camera and lenses over digital. http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/index.htm </p>

<p>Ken is a "big fan" of whatever gets him pageviews. His tastes change with the wind. However, in this case, if it gets more people into RF photography, then I'm all for it.</p>

<p>I think by making it just another category on the larger site, it really lost the sense of community it used to have. Now it is just "leica and rangefinders" -- just equipment. People still post photos occasionally, but the scope is much narrower. It seems like in the past it was really a hub for people who were interested in EITHER Leica and rangefinders OR street photography OR documentary photography OR travel photography OR buying Leica and rangefinder gear. By separating out the for sale section and limiting the discussion to leica and rangefinders only, I think people lost interest. Rigid categories are by nature restrictive and stunt the growth of interesting discussion. I think when things were bolted down that way, the people with a broader interest than JUST Leicas and rangefinders left. It became more of a gear forum than a spot for people interested in a certain realm of photography. <br>

I am not criticizing the photo.net policies -- I am sure they had their reasons. I just think if you are wondering what happened, that's what I think was the biggest factor. </p>

<p>I think it's been rather a long time since this was a particularly lively forum, and some of the reasons pre-date the M8. If you want a flu analogy:</p>

<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm</p>

<p>"The precise reason for this is not entirely understood but may be caused by an exaggerated response when the immune system encounters a new and highly pathogenic invader... [in the 1918 pandemic] a healthy immune system may have been a liability rather than an asset."</p>

<p>I think the elimination of the FS posts hurt, it was a tradition. Also, there were a lot of mean spirited posts. People need to feel that there views as a person are respected. Often extending a helping hand was met with derision. <br>

Then too some of us miss some that left this forum like AL who is a great photographer and gave great advise for years.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I think by making it just another category on the larger site, it really lost the sense of community it used to have. Now it is just "leica and rangefinders" -- just equipment.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well it was more than 7 years ago that the LUSENET system was stopped and the Leica forum moved over to the PN side. And even then, it was pretty much always a very heavy "gear" discussion forum. Don't believe me? Take a look into the past yourself:</p>

<p>http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Leica+Photography</p>

<p>Anyway, the forum has always been a "leica" or "leica/rangefinder" forum. It wasn't at any time called "Leica/rangefinder/street/travel/etc" forum. That being said, if you had questions on those topics that had to do with Leica, they would be perfectly on topic here today or 5 years ago. The PN "street" forum was set up because people wanted to be able to talk about street photography with equipment or in topics that didn't have anything to do with Leica/RF. Users on the Leica forum got annoyed (and understandably so) when people started to post too much stuff not shot with a Leica. Not that the Leica forum people were snobs or jerks, but the idea of a forum is to be able to connect with people interested in or find information about a specific topic. If the Leica people wanted to see shots with Canon digital cameras, they would go to the Canon forum.</p>

<p>I have to say that your post reads as if you are saying "this forum is too much about equipment these days" and claiming that removing the FS posts was a part of the reason for that change. That's kind of a contridiction. Gives me a bit of a chuckle. In any case, the FS thing did create a lot of friction and it was a judgment call at the time for the people who made it (you could make good arguments either way). But the fact is that it was much easier for the site to have consistency throughout the forums on that issue than having to try to explain to angry people why the Canon forum users had to use the Classified system and the Leica forum users did not. Somehow "because we like them better" wasn't a good enough explanation (nor was "because nobody wants to buy your cruddy EOS 5")</p>

<p>I fell I should mention that if we want anything useful to happen as far as livening up this forum and it's community, hashing over arguments from the past isn't the way to do it. As I said, I'm a leica fan and I'm excited about the idea of more Leica and RF activity on photo.net.</p>

<p><strong>But I am NOT going to waste my time with "oh, PN was so stupid and did this" type of stuff.</strong> Particularly when those decisions, actions, and changes happened when I was not at the helm of the site. The past is past and while lessons can be learned, there is nothing we can do to change events. Rather than let this thread turn into a "beat up PN" thread I'll just close the thread and use my time on other site work. I'm not accusing this of happening thus far, but after being involved with a site as long as I have, you can see some things coming a mile away.</p>

<p>Right now, I'm standing here saying "I am interested in hearing what people think could be done do get the PN community excited about leica/rf again". I'm happy to listen to any and all ideas (though I might not agree with them). If people want to take advantage of that, kickass. If they don't, this thread is a waste of time and I'm moving onto other work that needs to be done.</p>

<p>I bet it's simply that far fewer people are still using film, and the hordes who went digital chose SLRs in lieu of the M8. Not rocket science, IMHO.</p>

<p>And as a way of using my own advice, I will start things off. Here are some articles that I am working on involving RF photography:</p>

<ul>

<li>Leica M Mount body guide (an overview of all M-mount cameras thus far)</li>

<li>Leica M7 or MP, why one and not the other?</li>

<li>M7, Bessa R3A, or Ikon, which AE m-mount to choose?</li>

<li>Rapidwinder and 'softie' review</li>

</ul>

<p>Here are a couple that I could use input/help on:</p>

<ul>

<li>Best budget body/lens kits for a beginner RF photog</li>

<li>Overview of fixed lens RF cameras, best choices today</li>

<li>Why use a rangefinder? Aren't SLR's better?</li>

</ul>

<p>And here are ideas that I would love to see written, but I do not have the time (or in some cases knowledge) to write:</p>

<ul>

<li>Anything about the Leica R line</li>

<li>User review of the DMR and why Leica R users should buy one or not</li>

<li>Focusing instructions and tips for first time RF users</li>

<li>Must-have RF/leica accessories</li>

<li>Noctilux, what's the big deal?</li>

</ul>

<p>Now, of course, editorial articles are only one part of the site. But they can drive a lot of interest in a particular subject. The PN newsletter goes out to 400,000 people or so and our google ranking is very high for photo related searches.</p>

<p>Other non-editorial ideas might be:</p>

<ul>

<li>campaign to get everybody to tag their PN images with RF details to encourage gallery searches</li>

<li>weekly "thursday" threads ala the Nikon forum </li>

<li>contests?</li>

<li>Taking a harder line on nuking the "we come here to crap on Leica" posts?</li>

<li>magic beans?</li>

</ul>

<p>Like I said, I'm open to ideas.</p>

<p>"I bet it's simply that far fewer people are still using film"</p>

<p>Not so; RFF has a lively RF board with lots of daily postings. Here, the responses got amazingly hostile over the slightest issue and, as was said, mgmt got a bit heavy handed. Couple yrs ago the mod said the postings "were too chatty." Whatever that means. Those with more civil ways went to RFF.</p>

<p>In biz, once you lose your customers its hard to get them back. I wish Josh Root well.</p>

<p>Josh, if this is the wrong place for this, could you redirect me please.</p>

<p>I am very interested to see how the Lumix G1 can be used in conjunction with Leica bodies and lenses. It may open up the usability of a large number of older Nikon, Canon etc. lenses, some of which are now pretty cheap. And because it is a crop sensor, the focal lengths are effectively doubled.</p>

<p>Here is an excellent table with links from another forum on PN which lists adapter sources for a large number of lenses:<br>

<a href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dx428wg_10fdvsmtd7">http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dx428wg_10fdvsmtd7</a></p>

<p>The question to me is "Is the G1 a poor man's M8?" Once I can mount my Leica lenses on the G1 I will be able to compare the M7 film scans, the M8 digital and the G1 digital, all using the same lenses. I want to know what the difference is, and in which direction. So far I have been very impressed with the G1, although it seems that it is no M8. But it could have a place, especially at the price.</p>

<p>The upshot is it may bring some Leica users into the digital world because they still could use their beloved glass.</p>

<p>Regards, Carol</p>

<p>RFF is a great forum that I enjoy as well. But I'm pretty sure that if we had access to their stats from a few years ago and now, we'd see a downward trend as well. Perhaps different from PN's, but still, the simple fact is that digital has gutted the ranks of film users. Jerk posters, moderator arguments, FS posts, etc are all a part, but they are dwarfed by the overall reduction in film using photographers. If this weren't true, it would be just the Leica forum that suffered. When in fact film forums across PN are down from 4 years ago.</p>

<p>As an example, the medium format forum posts are down 30% from a few years ago. Medium format is, by and large, a film game. MF digital is very expensive and few people use it. However, in the Pentax forum, once a fairly stagnant primarily film forum, posts are up 155% over the same period in time. A period that saw Pentax move strongly into the digital world and gain a foothold in DSLR sales.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>In biz, once you lose your customers its hard to get them back.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>While those who still bear ill will from past arguments or issues may not believe me, but PN has not "lost customers" by any means. In every larger metric, photo.net has grown over the same time frame I used above. It is only when you look at specific forums that you see a big up or down swing. And those ups and downs are directly related to film and digital.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I wish Josh Root well.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I appreciate that. But I'm not doing this if nobody else cares. RF photography is close to my heart and I'm wiling to put my own time into it. But if nobody else is interested in joining in, I have to look at what is best for the site in terms of activity, growth, and our "community/education" mission. If there's nothing but "this place sucks because the past sucked" coming from the Leica/RF community here, it's hard for me to justify putting energy into this group when I could be putting energy into any of the other more excited and enthusiastic groups on PN.</p>

<p>It's really up to the group. I'm willing to put in the effort. But not if nobody else is interested.</p>

<p>Josh, I'm very interested ! Many apprieciate your efforts - you have great ideas and I for one can't wait to read them.</p>

<p>Ray, flu maybe, but I feel it's an ebb and flow thing going on here. Folks such as me that have been around PN for a while have seen and read redundant threads so they check in say once every couple of weeks to see if anything grabs them. If so, then they chime in. They still check it though ! </p>

<p>Right now we've the bottom, but I'm seeing and hearing about the <strong>resurgence</strong> of emulsion based photography. Film is all the discussion with many top wedding photographers here in Southern California. Issues & concerns with work flow, gear bulk, sensor dust and equipment cost vs. quality. I recently saw a landscape photographer dump all of his Nikon D300 gear so he could buy a Nikon Coolscan 9000 multi format scanner; once again he'll begin using his 35mm & medium format gear. <em>These scanners sell out and go to back order status faster then Nikon can make them.</em> Heck Ken Rockwell loves to confound the gear heads with a bargain $25 or less rangefinder that after a develop & scan, beats up the latest & best DSLR's ! He's also tired of the <strong>new and improved</strong> $3,000 to $8,000 DSLR bodies going <strong>old and cruddy</strong> so soon after purchase.</p>

<p>With the glut of GREAT equipment available for bargain prices right now, (Due to people needing rent money in this economy etc.) the choices for high quality 35mm and medium format cameras or tack sharp Leica lenses are astounding. For several years I've been telling anybody that would listen, that cash would be king someday soon and here we are. Now I tell them that if you have discretionary income, it's a smorgasbord out there, buy these assets now before hyperinflation kicks in.</p>

<p><strong>M8's are fun !</strong> Mount an old school 1946 Leitz or whatever make LTM, M or Contax lens, and have at it. If you can afford it, why not?</p>