Leica Copy ... by whom and when ... or is it?

There are a few things about this camera that lead me to believe that it is a well made copy (fake) Leica 1(E) - body and lens.

 

* The viewfinder without mounting flanges or screws

* The coved sleeve around the shutter release button

* The lettering on the lower ring of the shutter speed

 

I don't know enough about the lens to know Yes or No ... except that I was left with some documentation that notes it's a fake, but not why.

 

But are these in fact Leica elements perhaps from different models/era appended to this camera?

 

I'm looking to sell this body and lens unit but with full disclosure. Any ideas who manufactured this copy?

 

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Can you show us a photo of the rangefinder cam? That would help to some degree. This does look unusual but it could very well be genuine. So far I'm doubtful but open-minded.

I don't have (anymore) a Leica Standard E but the link here shows a true Leica Standard.

 

1938 Leica II (D)

 

http://www.leitzmuseum.org/CameraMakes/Leica/1939-Standard-E-3.jpg

Link 1938 Leica II (D)

The lettering around the shutter speed dial alone scream "fake". I would imagine it's one of any dozen Russian/Eastern bloc-made fakes.

I agree with Greg, Its probably one of the soviet/russian copies that were common of the time.

The big bright screw heads on the front, the shape of the 'lock' next to the film chamber and the screw head pattern on the bottom plate, amongst other things, all look Soviet.

Definitely a Russian fake. The shutter release surround and giant Leitz Wetzlar are a give away. I assume the "Elmar" is a fake too, but it is difficult to tell from the pics: it might be genuine. The lettering does not look quite nice enough to be genuine, but it is difficult to tell.

Was there a large scale production, maybe government run, of fake Leicas in Russia (or USSR)?

 

Also, when they make fakes, what do they use for the serial number. 304123 has a little bit of the

look of a fake, which didn't try too hard to make it look random. That is, the 123 part looks just

a little suspicious.

 

The shutter release collar could be an aftermarket add-on.

Was there a large scale production, maybe government run, of fake Leicas in Russia (or USSR)

The USSR wasn't too bothered about western European patent laws, and made Leica clones in large numbers from the 1930s onwards. But these were 'honest' copies, originally with FED or Zorki engravings:

 

Oscar Fricke: The Dzerzhinsky Commune: Birth of the Soviet 35 mm Camera Industry

 

Fakers take these cameras, perhaps many decades after they were originally manufactured, dress them up as Leicas with false engravings, and often re-finish them in other ways (chrome stripped down to the brass to emulate gold-plated 'Luxus' Leicas and fake military engravings are common features).

The DOF scale has the F3.5 through F16 progressions, sign that it is an Industar-10 with the F-Stop numbers for the mechanism re-engraved with the old F3.5 ~ F18 scale usd on the original Elmars. It's a Fed, re-engraved as a Leica. Worth, ~$100 or so as a novelty.

I do not believe the camera is an authentic Leica. The shutter release is tapped for a cable release, no screw mount Leicas had that feature. The view finder is mounted in a way different from the Leica E pictured in one of the replies. The engraving on the pedestal that holds the shutter speed dial is not correct. The serial number appears to have been assigned to a Leica IIIa produced in 1938. Any one of these is a knock out punch for authenticity. In addition to the mis matched aperture scales noted in one of the replies, the infinity latch on the focus tab is not like any I have seen on Leica lenses.

Good observations there, folks. The more I look at it, the more it seems like a fake.

 

Edit: If only the Russians had the same obsession for tolerances as the Germans - if that were the case, the fakes would be as good as the originals!

Reminds me of my favorite Leica copy story I heard years ago.

 

There is supposed to be a Canon model that is a close copy of a Leica.

So close that it has a screw that doesn't do anything in the same place that the Leica does.

 

I don't know which model Leica or Canon, though.

Was there a large scale production, maybe government run, of fake Leicas in Russia (or USSR)?

 

As Richard says most of the "fakes' are done after the end of the USSR. Some were apparently made by the factories before WWII, but one of those would probably be as valuable as a real Leica of the period. See LINK for some amusing examples of the post-war/post-Soviet fakes by any number of perhaps out-of-work Zorki staff.

 

IN the Soviet Contax production, the copies are often excellent shooters. The FED-2 is an improved Leica copy that I personally like a lot.

All the Russian fake Leicas generally start as a Soviet-made Zorki camera. A recent faker removed the rangefinder and made a new top plate and finder.

 

There was no patent violation making the Fed and Zorki cameras, all German patents were invalidated as a war reparation after World War II. That's why Nikon and Canon could clone Leitz and Zeiss cameras and lenses to their hearts' content, and use Zeiss' coating technology. But Leitz couldn't use the Zeiss coating patents, since the coating patents were still valid inside Germany.

There was no patent violation making the Fed and Zorki cameras, all German patents were invalidated as a war reparation after World War II.

FED production began in the 1930s, well before war reparations, so the camera would have been reverse-engineered. After the war, UK and US teams were given access to the original drawings and the production process at Leitz, information that was presumably used to build the Reid III, the British Leica copy:

LEITZ INVESTIGATED BY BRITISH INTELLIGENCE 1946

LEITZ INVESTIGATED BY BRITISH INTELLIGENCE 1946 continued ...

Edited September 18, 2017 by Richard Williams