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lack of sharpness... for lack of a better way of putting it.


jason_inskeep

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<p>I was recently asked to shoot for a fairly large social event, more specifically a high school graduation. It was a last minute thing, the original photographer bailed and they needed some one who could fill the bill. This is not my normal type of shooting. I really did enjoy the whole process and wouldn't mind doing more of it if I got the opportunity but... There are a couple of issues!<br>

First the coordinator of the event wanted a wide angle shot of a stage full of students at the end of the ceremony. every thing seems to be sharp except the students!<br>

The second problem is kind of the same as the first, I have some fairly fast glass; 24 2.8, 50 1.4, 20-35 2.8, and I was shooting at a fairly high ISO ( between 800 and 1600) in an auditorium. How do you shoot in these situations?<br>

Lastly, a friend of mine suggested that I " put the flash in E-TTL, put the camera in Program mode, and stay no more than 20 ft away... ". Tried that in some test shots on stage before the ceremony started and due to the spot lights I was having a problem keeping the subject from getting way over exposed, I even put the flash down 3 stops, and the back ground turning totally black. The other problem I was having was never being able to get the camera to focus on the subject. P mode sugested 1/60th at f/4 and every time I fired off a test shot I got a black background, almost white subject ( in the face at least) and a lot of motion blur. I took the flash off, put the camera in manual, set it at 1/50th and 2.8 and all the sudden all my problems went away, at least mostly, for that part of the shoot. Is there something that I may not be doing right with my flash?<br>

I guess there is actually one more thing, how do you compete with other peoples flash and guys who are doing the stage lighting? It seemed like the stage ligting wasn't consistant all the time, I know it wont neccessarily be across the stage but shooting at the same spot and from the same spot with the same camera setting for every shot should get about the same results for every shot. I also had a problem with parents shooting in the back ground with every thing from point and shoots to slr's with flash guns in the back ground and that ruined a few shots. Is there any good way to make up for these types of problems?</p>

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<p>Basically what you want to do, is make sure you have a good exposure for the background (by metering like you normally do without a flash). This will allow you to have good background exposure, you would then use the flash to fill, and if the subject was slightly under exposed, now they will be correctly exposed with the flash, and the background will still be exposed.<br>

ETTL should manage that fairly well, if you're not quite sure about settings, expose for your setting without flash (in manual) and then turn the flash on.<br>

I believe there is also a way to do this with Tv mode... I think by setting to your fastest flash sync speed, and then the camera picks the aperture.</p>

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<p>In this situation you'll need to power up your flash to compete with the stage lighting and the best results would come from a multiple flash setup. A dark background isn't necessarily a bad thing.....background lighting would be the answer if you want to avoid it. Your images are likely soft due to the shallow DOF and some motion blur with the students.</p>
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<p>I did try setting a good exposure for the back ground as well... the problem ended up being that the spot light was so bright that the for ground ended up being just a touch over exposed with or with out flash, flash did seem to make it worse though.</p>

 

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<p>David,<br>

So really just crank up the flash and keep the black back ground, that would be the right way to go in the future? I am pretty new to this type of photography and wasn't sure if that was acceptable! If it is then I am glad to support it.<br>

Unfortunately at the moment I do not have the equipment to put out more lights. Untill very recently I was very much into available light only photography.<br>

So in auditoriums and churches how do you usually set up your cameras and on camera flashes?</p>

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<p>Stage lighting is lighting is usually very bad and always very difficult. We can't possibly teach you everything you need to know about lighting and flash in a forum thread. And I can't say what I would have done, I wasn't there. Off the top of my head, I might have used spot-metering in aperture priority mode. I probably would have staked out my locations and used the flash in manual. Bright spots, dark background, muddy middles, are going to test any TTL system, Canon's especially. And most TTLs don't do well with spot metering. If you wanted the background lit, you would need to light it! It's dark because the spots are brighter than the background! Hence the use of spots. You can't light both the background and the foreground (up against spots no less) with a shoe mount flash.</p>

<p>In terms of image sharpness, post the image. Otherwise we are just speculating.</p>

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<p>Just a couple of questions before we tackle the problem. I see you are using fairly fast lenses. Were you shooting them wide open much of the time?</p>

<p>What camera did you use?</p>

<p> Were you using a tripod? I sincerely hope so. </p>

<p>For graduation pictures inside you seem to have a very limited lens selection. You are fine for the full stage shots but for the individual students you really need the 70-200 F2.8 (vr) or such so you can isolate them during the presentation of diplomas. You will get much more appealing shots of the individual students that way. Assuming you are not on the stage with them you would be shooting 'up' pretty dramatically at around 80 mm using the 50. So I have to ask if you were using the 50 and then cropping like mad to get your closeups? </p>

<p>You mention a 50th at F2.8. Even with a flash this is a pretty low number. Most would say that the minimum speed you should use at 50mm with the crop factor (assuming you are using a crop sensor) is a 70th of a second and I would be much happier over 125th. You are really flirting with motion blur as your subjects are moving and adding camera shake into the equasion. I would be willing to bet that this is the answer to your blur problem. </p>

<p>Other people's flash should not be a problem except for the very rarest of occasions. If you can answer the questions and post a picutre or two we should be able to help more. </p>

 

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<p>Stage lighting sucks. I can't stand working in it because there will always be hot spots, usually in the worst places you could ask for them.<br>

Don't use program for flash photography like that. That's a good setting for interiors with low white ceilings but it won't work in your setting without looking like cr*p. Shoot a test frame in P, check your histogram and shutter speed/aperture values - if everything is exposed ok, put it on manual or Av and plug in those values. Then turn your flash on.. probably -1.5 FEC ish?<br>

On the equipment side - fast glass is good, but not for groups. Keep it above f/4 if you can.</p>

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<p>Here is a previous thread. Realize that there are professional photographers who specifically do graduation ceremonies. They have the gear and the organizational plan in place to know how to control and affect such things as parents, positioning of the diploma pass, and even stage lighting.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00W6Ty">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00W6Ty</a></p>

<p>One thing I can say for sure. I wouldn't know how to advise you because as John says, I wasn't there. This kind of situation, you need to call upon your knowledge of photography and experience in shooting in many different lighting conditions. Shooting weddings, I run across the spotlights being much brighter scenario a lot.</p>

<p>I can say that manual camera mode would be the one to use, and you'd have to decide upon how to handle the lighting for the action that is occuring. Generally, if there are bright spotlights, you need to put your flash/camera EV at or above the brightness of the spotlights--then use the flash to 'fill in'. This is not necessarily an easy thing to do for an uncontrolled situation and does not result in nice looking photos sometimes--the black or blank background and 'flashy' looking images. However, sometimes it is necessary. This might be avoided with some pre planning and a talk with the lighting manager. Or the set up of off camera lighting, if allowed and feasible. Many times for graduations, it isn't feasible. However, if you are the 'official' photographer, you do have some say.</p>

<p>On your main problem of soft images--probably motion blur. Secondly, hand holding shake. This basically goes back to the guidelines--there are two sets. The first one is for stopping different speeds of subject motion. The second one is for hand holding. If shooting with ambient as primary, these two sets must be followed or you will get soft images.</p>

<p>Flash has the ability to freeze motion just by it's duration, but your ambient must be underexposed to allow this to happen. It is called dragging the shutter. I'd do some research into the concepts I just mentioned. In your situation, all of these things would come into play. For instance, for the presentaiton of diploma shot, you might drag the shutter, but for the wide shot of the stage, you probably need to go with ambient only. This is why I said above that you need to call upon your knowledge and experience based on what you are shooting.</p>

<p>Plus, you might also have DOF issues, as David S. mentioned. I don't think anyone else's recipe is going to solve your problems. You have to think this through yourself.</p>

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<p>I doubt that you need a tripod and don't see what difference which camera you are using would make. As John & Nadine indicate above, it's hard to cover all the possible solutions and dynamics in a single forum thread.....feel free to do a search on flash and pay particular attention to balancing flash with ambient light. Marc Williams had an excellent thread several months back, that would be a good starting point.</p>

<p>For myself, I stay with an ISO of 400 and would shoot at f/5.6 or f/8.0. Fast lenses are nice to have but when you are shooting at f/5.6 or higher, they make very little difference. I like the diffusion and spread that I get from using an omnibounce on my 580EX set at a 45 degree angle (see illustration). Ideally, I would have a second flash equipped with an omni set near my camera position but placed on a pole about 5-8 feet above my lens with the omni at a 45 degree angle but also feathered slightly towards the back end of the group and centered towards the rear area of the background (set this 1 stop hotter than your on-camera or on-bracket flash). The background is much more likely to go dark if there's alot of room between your subjects and the rear area of the church or stage. Occassionally you can compensate to some degree with digital fill while in the PS stages but try to get the lighting as close as possible at time of capture rather than relying on digital fixes. A dark background is much more acceptable if you've got good lighting on the faces of your subjects.....it's often more of an issue for photographers and peers than it is for your clients.</p>

<p>I would also suggest that you study portraiture lighting and concentrate on the different ratios between the different lights, the basic light dynamics are the same. Good luck.</p>

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<p>David, you seem to be a fan of the omnibounce diffuser but my experience with gymnasiums is that the ceilings and walls are too far away to render these things effective. They eat light and your flash recycles too slowly for the type of event the OP was shooting. Maybe in a smaller room they work where the walls are pristine white. (But under those conditions basic bouncing would suffice).<br>

And I've never shot a fast paced graduation but I've watched those "specialty" pros that do this for a living. It appears to me they are just using a lot of direct flash in ETTL. With the changing subject distances and varying lighting I tip my hat to those that can do this on manual flash power settings.</p>

<p> </p>

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For group shots on the stage I'd prefer to shoot at F5.6 to F8. Although the 2.8 lenses are great they can also have a shallow depth of field.

 

Your flash should stop movement from anyone moving slightly. Without seeing the stage, but based on experience, maybe try setting your camera on manual at 1/30 of a second and if your are 20 feet away try direct flash at full power. If F5.6 is still too dark try F4 with an ASA setting of 800. My feeling is the flash on ETTL or TTL is only good to about 10 feet max. After 10 feet the ETTL light falls off causing the people to go dark. So you kind of have to go full power to light up the group from 20 feet.

 

Are you going to use a short ladder or something? If you are below the stage shooting upwards the images most likely look a bit weird.

 

As far as the stage lights go, think of them as fill, and over power the stage lights with your flash at full power. Stage lights can really cause frustration to a photographer, such as red and blue lights shining on the heads of people. If you are close enough usually your flsah will over power the the stage lights.

 

You probably don't have any powerful strobes, but perhaps you can rent them from a local photo store. This is actually how I deal with stage problems. I will set up one or 2 of these monolights and fire them with a wireless radio slave. Your exposures will pretty much be dead on all of the time.

 

 

Lastly, shoot in RAW so you can color correct bad lighting situations if needed

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<p>If I were shooting w/ flash indoors in a situation like that I would avoid P mode and would more likely use manual mode and let the TTL flash get the correct exposure.</p>

<p>However, based on the lens I was using and the amount of ambient light and the camera's light meter, I'd have an estimate on what shutter speed and aperture to use in manual mode.</p>

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<p>RT, I am a fan of the omnibounce, it doesn't lose anymore than one stop of light compared to direct flash and it does a nice job of opening up the background. I routinely use it in halls with ceilings over 30 feet high (see image below). Bouncing a speedlight into an umbrella cuts the power much more than using the omnibounce. When used correctly the omni does not eat light.</p>

<p>The dual-light setup that I've suggested above would do a more than adequate job of lighting the subjects and providing some fill to the background in the situation described by the OP. I would likely shoot manual, f/5.6 at 1/60th............I've been a pro for more than 16 years and have shot more than 500 weddings.</p><div>00WTcD-244695784.jpg.ae43aa9e4721560f9b5e5f8ed9acf6fa.jpg</div>

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<p>I disagree that the flash is going to stop motion blur in this case. The OP mentioned the hot spots that the stage lighting was causing. Under these hot lights the flash is not going to do the trick. Hand holding at 1/30th is a recipe for a disaster under these circumstances. The OP as much as admitted this. Then we have students walking briskly across a brightly lit stage........right?</p>

<p>Why tell us what kind of camera? Well beause it will determine the max ISO we can recommend and the difference between crop sensor and full frame effects the speed at which we can expect to hand-hold the camera. (Yes I am aware of that some say it makes no difference.) I would not shoot a 50 mm lens at 1/50th with a 10D but I might with a 5D. I would not shoot at ISO 1600 with the same 10D but would not hesitate to do so with the 5DMark II. </p>

<p>I have shot a bunch of graduations and other similar events. Newspaper folks do it all of the time. If he keeps his speeds up he will have better luck with stopping motion and reducing camera shake. Sharper pictures. Blasting hot-spots with more flash will not get rid of the hot-spot. It will just make it brighter. It is easer to deal with hot-spots in composition and post production. </p>

<p> </p>

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<p>With hotspots, flash can still freeze motion, but the hotspot EV has to be about 2 stops below the flash EV, which is why I said above, that the resulting images would look very 'flashy' and the backgrounds would go black, dark. Not a lot one can do about hotspots but overcome/match them or eliminate them by turning off the spots. Sometimes going higher ISO makes hotspots and actual lights look worse because they become hot 'blobs'. This is definitely a tricky situation that automated modes are just not designed or equipped to handle.</p>

<p>As for making hotspots brighter when flash is used--I'm sure you know the fill flash theory--the flash opens up shadows a lot more than highlights, so while you don't want to blast with flash, filling with flash on a hotspot can be workable.</p>

<p>I just don't think we can give Jason much useful information, since the specifics are not known.</p>

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<p>thank you to all who have answered...<br>

i was using a 5D for most of the ceremony, occasionally a 30D. the choice of lenses i agree was not the best but my 70-200 is currently in the middle east due to a rather awkward situation. i had 8 hours to prepare for the shoot and i couldn't even get in the building more than an hour before the whole thing took place. i was definitely the last minute photographer, the original guy bailed more than likely because it seems he may not have gotten paid to do the work.<br>

i did try dragging the shutter a bit, i usually have good luck with this, have done it quite a bit, not so much this time. between over exposure and for some reason a lot of blurr i had better luck with the flash off the camera totally... i dont really know why but did. the only other thing i did notice was with a 24mm lens my E-TTL flash was saying that the focal length was 14mm, not sure what was up with that and i will have to figure that out.<br>

i asked about what i was allowed to do and was given permission to " go were ever you need to go to get the shot", i dont shoot these types of things so... i was pretty much up on sage with a 50mm, not really the best place in the world but...<br>

i am going to try and post a picture that i seemed to be having a lot of problems with... its a long distance shot...</p><div>00WTzz-244887684.jpg.2855f11561b91e05d2fbfc23f91d1adc.jpg</div>

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<p>Unless you are shaky, it was subject motion or misfocus. I checked the exif, and this was with a 30D with a 24mm lens. You are right on the border, though of hand holding safety at 1/45th shutter speed. To rule out misfocus, check other parts of the image to see if you can find sharp areas. If it was subject motion, there should be areas of blur and others areas that are sharp. Not all the students are going to move as one. It is impossible to tell from an online image. Also, be sure you are not overreacting to the definition of head size on a cropped sensor camera at 100 percent magnification.</p>
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<p><em><strong>"RT, I am a fan of the omnibounce, it doesn't lose anymore than one stop of light compared to direct flash and it does a nice job of opening up the background. I routinely use it in halls with ceilings over 30 feet high (see image below)."</strong></em></p>

<p>David, I am certainly not "critiquing" your use of the omnibounce. Indeed, I am genuinely intrigued by that fact that someone with your experience and talent can actually use this thing so successfully. I never could.</p>

<p>Of course I never used them as a "pair" like you do. Regarding dimly light venues, I use a bounce card attached to my on-camera flash and while I find frontal subject exposure to be spot on via ETTL, I can't seem to get rid of that "cave" look as there really isn't much ambient to pick up. So if I understand you correctly, you basically drag a 12-15 foot "stick" around with an attached speedlite/omnibounce to throw light behind your subject?<br>

<br /></p>

<p><br /></p>

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<p>the above picture is what i was refering too... just a lack of detail. the school wanted these shots and it just didn't work unless they plan on using them no bigger than what i put up for the original picture i posted! they are an utter waste. but how would you go about keeping this from happening in the future if you were a young and inexperienced rookie like my self?</p>
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