Kodak C-41 LORR without starter?

I recently bought a set of chemicals for Kodak C-41. All of them are replenishers. The salesman told me over the phone that "starters aren't really needed for hand processing, they are only for machine processing". I didn't believe this (I think it would be actually the opposite: a machine process would eventually "season itself" with film running through it. Anyways, I placed the order, and I didn't check the confirmation, but they removed both the bleach and developer starters.

 

Can I still use the developer and bleach without starters? I understand some colors may be a bit off, but I'm willing to take the risk (the first roll will be for testing purposes mostly).

 

I noticed though that starters will significantly dilute the chemicals: Preparing the full 5L of developer from my kit would yield 5L of "developer replenisher solution". To this solution, understand I'm supposed to add the whole 1L of solution of 660-1074 Developer Starter. So, if I prepare 1L of "developer replenisher solution", Would I need to dilute it further with around 200ml of water that would come from the developer starter (which I don't have), or should I just use this developer "straight"?

You are correct in that the replenisher used as developer would eventually season itself, but to have it work properly from the start you would need to add "starter" to the replenisher, (since replenisher necessarily lacks certain chemicals that are in the starter), and usually water as well. This would be true whether you are mixing developer for a machine or at home. Otherwise the developing results would likely be out-of-spec. So, the purpose of starter is to make proper working developer out of replenisher. In my view, the salesman was wrong.

 

The ratio of starter to replensher you mentioned doesn't seem right to me, but excessive, based on ratios I have seen for other replenishers . If the labels do not give clear instructions on the proper amounts to mix, I would try to find some other source such as Kodak's website.

 

I have it on good authority that unlike developer, bleach will still do its job properly if starter is not added.

Yes, you should dilute the replenisher anyway.

 

Rob is exactly right.

 

As a note, the standard addition of Kodak LORR starter to Kodak LORR replenisher should be about 0.030 liters per final liter of "tank solution," AS I RECALL. Best to check the instructions on the bottle of starter, though.

The Kodak LOOR Replenisher is formulated for use in continuous film developing machines of the mini-lab type. The LOOR formula has a reduced replenishment rate. This reduces the volume of spent fluids. The idea is to reduce sewer or haul away burdens. The replenishment rate is 17ml per meter of 35mm film. This is barely above the carry-out rate (fluid riding piggyback on film as it leaves the developer tank).

 

As film develops, the developer solution weakens as the developing agents become exhausted. Additionally, as exposed silver salts develop, they are fragmented into metallic silver, and a halogen component of the crystal is liberated. The halogen, chiefly a bromine compound, is dissolved by the waters of the developer.

 

Now bromine compounds are required in a developer formulation. This chemical enables the developer to be selective. By selective, it has the ability to differentiate between exposed and unexposed silver salt crystals. If bromine is not present, the film will be over-developed -- plus it will have a high fog level. In other words, the bromine is a needed restrainer.

 

In a replenished developer tank, bromine restrainer is a one-time addition used to pre-season a fresh tank. There is no need for the developer replenisher to contain bromine, as the tank continuously gains bromine as film is developed.

 

My notes:

To make 1 liter of working developer from LOOR Replensher:

To 763ml developer replenisher add 207ml water --- 30ml starter.

Hi Alan, I think you answered on StackExchange as well. Seems they are out of stock of developer starter. So I'll have to make do without it for a few weeks.

It seems to me that you need to add water and KBr.

 

Easiest, but maybe not quite accurate, is to find out how much KBr is in typical developers,

and use that much.

 

Otherwise, if you know the replenishment rate and how much KBr comes out of each roll of film,

you should be able to figure it out.

 

Both depend on the replenisher not having any bromide, but maybe close enough.

C-41 formulas I have seen or used have about 1.3-1.5 grams/liter of sodium or potassium bromide. I believe the starter may adjust the pH as well as supplying the missing halides, therefore a check of the pH and adjustment if necessary, after adding the bromide and water, is advised (typically 10.0 to 10.1) for best results.

 

If a test gives you acceptable results then you would never have worry about the availability of starter again!

Some sites say about 2g/square meter of silver in film, so about 0.1g per 135-36 roll.

That would match up with about 0.08g of Br in AgBr.

 

From above, the replenishment rate is about 17ml/roll, so seasoned developer

should have about 4.8g/L of Br, or about 7g/L of KBr.

 

It seems that D19 is about 5g/L, so maybe not so far off, but other developers seem

to have much less.

I went ahead and just dunked my film in that straight replenisher solution. Here are the results: https://imgur.com/a/LU2nlEH

The properly exposed photos are from a sunny day and were latent in that roll for 5 years. The rest of the photos I took last sunday on a very gray day (the lack of light is very obvious).

The dark photos took a lot of fiddling with scanner curves and photoshop, but that's not the developer's problem, as shown by the properly exposed photos. The photo of the girl holding up a sign to her face only had a tiny amount of WB correction.

The film is Portra 400 exposed at 400.

I have recently seen RA-4 chemistry on eBay that I thought about bidding on, which I believe has the same problem.

 

I suspect, though, even if you don't add bromide, you should still dilute it a little more.

Alright here is my problem, due to a lockdown here in Serbia i can't get the LORR starter, but i have Tetenal Starter for one of their own C41 SP45 replenisher. Does someone have an idea can i substitute Kodak starter with Tetenal one. With Tetenal you take 900ml of SP45 replenisher + 90ml of water and add 10ml of starter to the mix. Thanks!

Does someone have an idea can i substitute Kodak starter with Tetenal one.

 

If the replenishers are design to work at the SAME REPLENISHMENT RATES then you could probably substitute the starters. (Note that I say probably.)

 

Ideally you would have a way to evaluate the developer "activity," such as by use of test strips. So once you dilute the replenisher and add the starter you would be able to do a processing test to see if it is ok.

I have ra-4 developer starter. Do anyone know if it will work? I am switching from the kits to flexicolor. I have a few weeks worth of the kit chems left. If the starter is not in stock by then, I’ll try the ra-4 developer.

Do anyone know if it will work?

 

I'm doubtful. RA-4 paper is based on silver chloride so one would NOT expect its starter to include bromide ion. Whereas C41 DOES have bromide ion as a significant restrainer.

 

If you have a way to test the developer "activity" by processing a reference image, or whatever, you might try processing a bit of heavily exposed film as a partial substitute for the starter. I'd guess that this would be a much better alternative than RA4 starter. Keep in mind that these are just educated guesses.

 

I presume that you are NOT using a replenished system?

I'm doubtful. RA-4 paper is based on silver chloride so one would NOT expect its starter to include bromide ion. Whereas C41 DOES have bromide ion as a significant restrainer.

 

 

(snip)

 

I haven't thought about this for a while, but I always thought that the old contact printing papers like Velox were AgCl,

while the enlarging papes like Kodabromide were AgBr, or a mix of the two.

 

Since RA-4 is faster than the usual enlarging papers (like Kodabromide), I would expect it to be more AgBr.

 

But that is as well as I know it. I do know that papers keep getting faster,

and now I often need neutral density for paper printing.

Since RA-4 is faster than the usual enlarging papers (like Kodabromide), I would expect it to be more AgBr.

 

Uhhh... no, it's not.

 

It was well known in the industry that the conversion from the older Ektaprint 2/3 papers to RA4 was to a silver chloride material. In the 1980s there were at least a few technical papers published on some of these aspects. I was personally involved with the operation of a developer regeneration system with Ekt 2/3, using ion exchange resins to remove primarily bromide from the developer, allowing it to be reconstituted (see SPSE technical papers by Rami Mina, et al, of Kodak). This system became moot with the introduction of RA4, as bromide, with its powerful restraining effect, was no longer present.

 

I'm sure that Henry Wilhelm, in his book, available for free download from his website, gives at least a brief discussion of the differences between the Ekt 2/3 vs RA4 papers. (I'll find page numbers for you, if needed.)

The story I knew from many years ago, maybe 40 years and I don't think it was new then, was that older papers were AgCl, as AgBr gave the wrong tone.

 

I do remember when paper labels would say "warm tone" or "cold tone".

 

So then there are mixed halides, some combination of Cl and Br, which crystalize with properties somewhere in between.

(That is, it is not a mix of AgCl and AgBr grains, but mixed within each grain.)

 

The slower papers were for contact printing, and faster ones for enlarging.

 

I haven't tried to follow papers since then, except that they do keep getting faster.

Thanks to all. That is great information, and I will read the book from Henry Wilhelm.

 

I plan to use the developer as a 1 shot. If the starter is still out of stock, I’ll try adding the bromide as described earlier, and I’ll let you know how it goes.