Kiev 60 frame counter stuck

Discussion in 'Medium Format' started by 10984403, Nov 22, 2020.

  1. Late to the party, but I suspect that the spacing problem is mostly independent of the frame counter.
    My personal experience is with various East German 6x6 cameras, including the original Pentacon 6TL, and they have working frame counters and still have a spacing problem.
    Generally this can be mitigated by being very careful in loading the film - always keeping tension on it.
  2. And not letting the wind lever snap back :) . Peter
  3. Yes, but the Pentacon 6 at least has a toothed friction-roller that contacts the film and measures its linear movement. When it works, it works well.

    The Kiev 60, OTOH, has no film 'feeler' mechanism at all. Its frame spacing is pure guesswork from the outset.

    Even the crudest of TLRs usually has a rubber-roller to measure the film advance. Relying on take-up spool rotations is just utterly lazy design. Using the word 'design' in the loosest possible sense!
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
    peter_fowler likes this.
  4. Of course, throughout the almost 60 years of Hasselblad V production, that is the way all their backs metered film. And it was reliably used by professionals beyond that period. So maybe, I would not say the design was lazy, but its reliability has more to do with the quality of construction.

    That is not to say that when the lubrication deteriorated, that frame spacing was not an issue that could not be remedied with a CLA service. Similar frame spacing issues happened with the roller mechanisms if it has lubrication issues, or dusty rollers.

    The use of spool metered film mechanisms help reduce the drag on the film, hence the force used to advance the film. The use of rubber wheels (Bronica/Pentax) instead of toothed metal gears (Rolliflex TLRs, Pentacon) reduced the friction and drag, but caused spacing issues when the wheel got dusty or lubrication of the mechanism deteriorated.

    After 70 years, I have Hasselblad c12 backs that work perfectly, they just needed a clean & lube (no adjustment needed). I have much younger Bronica backs that need a new rubber roller (rubber has hardened/flatted), which are not available, so they are pretty much useless.
  5. Saying it is lazy design compared to counting the turns a little wheel turns also shows little understanding of how it works. If anything, it might be more complicated than necessary, too much design, compared to counting rotations.

    But some people don't care much about such fine points, rather post strong views that might start discussions.
  6. How many cameras with poor frame spacing have you taken apart to repair q.g?

    I understand the mechanics perfectly well thanks, and relying on takeup spool rotations is just a crap method of frame spacing. Whether 'blad use it or not.
    Pot to kettle.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
    peter_fowler likes this.
  7. And I was just marveling earlier today, about how all the old timers seemed to have mellowed.

    I personally try (and usually fail, the price of overestimating competence (Dunning–Kruger effect)) to consider Cromwell's rule

    This is a little ironic anyhow, since Cromwell was not especially noted for thinking that HE might be mistaken.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
  8. "Just utterly lazy design", Cowboy said.

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