Kiev 60 frame counter stuck

So I got a good deal on a Kiev 60, which has frame counter stuck, but which seems to otherwise work fine.

However, it turned out that the frame counter also adjusts frame spacing, so currently besides not knowing how many frames are left in the roll, I end up getting only 10 instead of 12 frames on a roll, as without the compensation spacing increases towards end of the roll. Which is a bit annoying. So, does anybody know if it's difficult to fix it?

Looks like the camera is a bit banged up around the counter, so perhaps with good luck it might be just stuck due to the top being bent? It does look like the counter tries to move when you wind the lever.

so perhaps with good luck it might be just stuck due to the top being bent?

You might be right, the counter is probably rubbing against the dinged top. The top will need panel beating or just simply replace it with one from a parts camera.

Looks like spring loaded hook which should stop the counter as long as the back is closed, is very loose. It also looks like the spring has been already bent by someone else...

Perhaps you have seen this already, but the site below has some good information on adjusting the frame spacing:

Kiev 60 Kalibration

It also appears that the film advance lever stop post seems to be missing off the top cover of your camera (fits where the hole is).

Perhaps you have seen this already, but the site below has some good information on adjusting the frame spacing:

 

Kiev 60 Kalibration

 

It also appears that the film advance lever stop post seems to be missing off the top cover of your camera (fits where the hole is).

I have read that page earlier, but it seems to be about adjusting the fixed part of the frame spacing, while counter affects compensating the amount of film that is already on the spool. As the latter is not working, the spacing increases towards the end of the film.

I have read that page earlier, but it seems to be about adjusting the fixed part of the frame spacing, while counter affects compensating the amount of film that is already on the spool. As the latter is not working, the spacing increases towards the end of the film.

As I mentioned, the film advance lever stop is missing--if the lever throw, and perhaps the amount of film being advanced, may not be consistent, could that be a factor?

I was not aware that the frame counter compensated the spacing, though I have read that the spacing is sensitive to both careful film loading and film thickness.

As I mentioned, the film advance lever stop is missing--if the lever throw, and perhaps the amount of film being advanced, may not be consistent, could that be a factor?

 

I was not aware that the frame counter compensated the spacing, though I have read that the spacing is sensitive to both careful film loading and film thickness.

No, it can't be that because the film spacing consistently increased towards the end of the film. If it was due to advance lever stop missing, it should have varied from one shot to the next.

The thread below discusses a similar problem with the Pentacon Six--perhaps it will have some information that will help you.

What is wrong with my Pentacon 6 TL?

The thread below discusses a similar problem with the Pentacon Six--perhaps it will have some information that will help you.

 

What is wrong with my Pentacon 6 TL?

Unfortunately Pentacon 6 seems to have different frame spacing mechanism than Kiev 60. If I have understood correctly, Pentacon 6 attempts to actually measure the amount of film that is advanced, while Kiev 60 just estimates the compensation based on the frame counter. Which is why it being stuck is a problem.

But anyways, I think I might have found what's the issue. The spring being a bit loose doesn't seem to be it, but the mechanism which resets the counter when you open the back. It pulls the hook, which stops the frame counter, when you open the back. But it looks like it doesn't go all the way down even when you close the back, so that the hook doesn't properly connect to the gears in the frame counter wheel. The next question would be how to fix it...

The service manual for the Kiev-60 is available here:

Kiev60Repair.djvu

Document is in DjVu format (can be opened with the appropriate viewer or browser plug-in). It is in Russian, but does have parts diagrams.

Also a YouTube repair video that may be of some help, though it's also in Russian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1QIKBfJBWk

Actually I managed to get the frame counter to work. First I tried to bend the part of the hook that connects to the release mechanism, as I didn't find any other easily accessable way to fix it. Unfortunately it broke, as apparently it was some hardened metal and it couldn't take bending. But I managed to make a fix by gluing beer can aluminium to it, as the forces involved aren't that large. It even works, so I guess I'll test it with film...

The two Kiev 60s that I bought brand new (one sent as replacement for a faulty one) had no frame-spacing mechanism whatsoever. Frame-spacing was based purely on rotations of the take up spool, which is obviously prone to gross error.

They also had no mirror arrestor, which means you get mirror bounce and stray light through the viewing screen into the dark chamber during exposure. Plus intermittent flash firing, a flexible back that felt like it was made from an old tin can and a badly machined lens mount that wouldn't take Pentacon 6 lenses.

That was a week's time and two lots of return postage completely wasted. So personally I wouldn't have a Kiev 60 as a gift, thanks. Let alone waste time and film with one.

Looks like it works. In the next film I tested it with, the frames overlap the same amount (about 2-3mm) throughout the film. So I guess it's time to adjust the frame spacing according to the calibration guide. :D

However, that guide tells to test it by loading a backing paper to the camera, and advancing it four times when the back is open. However, the counter doesn't advance while the back is open, so wouldn't this change the amount of the film advanced? I tested this with both the back closed and open. F and I marks mean full and initial, respectively, and the leftmost marks are with back open, and rightmost back closed.

So, with back closed adjusting frame spacing to max would be a pretty good amount, while it would be a bit much if you go with the measurement done back open. On the other hand, if you measure it back open, it should have been about right at the beginning, so I guess that can't be correct...

However, it turned out that the frame counter also adjusts frame spacing, so currently besides not knowing how many frames are left in the roll, I end up getting only 10 instead of 12 frames on a roll, as without the compensation spacing increases towards end of the roll.

Late to the party, but I suspect that the spacing problem is mostly independent of the frame counter.

My personal experience is with various East German 6x6 cameras, including the original Pentacon 6TL, and they have working frame counters and still have a spacing problem.

Generally this can be mitigated by being very careful in loading the film - always keeping tension on it.

My personal experience is with various East German 6x6 cameras, including the original Pentacon 6TL, and they have working frame counters and still have a spacing problem.

Yes, but the Pentacon 6 at least has a toothed friction-roller that contacts the film and measures its linear movement. When it works, it works well.

The Kiev 60, OTOH, has no film 'feeler' mechanism at all. Its frame spacing is pure guesswork from the outset.

Even the crudest of TLRs usually has a rubber-roller to measure the film advance. Relying on take-up spool rotations is just utterly lazy design. Using the word 'design' in the loosest possible sense!

<snip>.... Relying on take-up spool rotations is just utterly lazy design. Using the word 'design' in the loosest possible sense!

Of course, throughout the almost 60 years of Hasselblad V production, that is the way all their backs metered film. And it was reliably used by professionals beyond that period. So maybe, I would not say the design was lazy, but its reliability has more to do with the quality of construction.

That is not to say that when the lubrication deteriorated, that frame spacing was not an issue that could not be remedied with a CLA service. Similar frame spacing issues happened with the roller mechanisms if it has lubrication issues, or dusty rollers.

The use of spool metered film mechanisms help reduce the drag on the film, hence the force used to advance the film. The use of rubber wheels (Bronica/Pentax) instead of toothed metal gears (Rolliflex TLRs, Pentacon) reduced the friction and drag, but caused spacing issues when the wheel got dusty or lubrication of the mechanism deteriorated.

After 70 years, I have Hasselblad c12 backs that work perfectly, they just needed a clean & lube (no adjustment needed). I have much younger Bronica backs that need a new rubber roller (rubber has hardened/flatted), which are not available, so they are pretty much useless.

Of course, throughout the almost 60 years of Hasselblad V production, that is the way all their backs metered film. And it was reliably used by professionals beyond that period. So maybe, I would not say the design was lazy, but its reliability has more to do with the quality of construction. [...]

Saying it is lazy design compared to counting the turns a little wheel turns also shows little understanding of how it works. If anything, it might be more complicated than necessary, too much design, compared to counting rotations.

But some people don't care much about such fine points, rather post strong views that might start discussions.