Kiev 60 frame counter stuck

Discussion in 'Medium Format' started by 10984403, Nov 22, 2020.

  1. So I got a good deal on a Kiev 60, which has frame counter stuck, but which seems to otherwise work fine.

    However, it turned out that the frame counter also adjusts frame spacing, so currently besides not knowing how many frames are left in the roll, I end up getting only 10 instead of 12 frames on a roll, as without the compensation spacing increases towards end of the roll. Which is a bit annoying. So, does anybody know if it's difficult to fix it?

    Looks like the camera is a bit banged up around the counter, so perhaps with good luck it might be just stuck due to the top being bent? It does look like the counter tries to move when you wind the lever.

    photo_2020-11-20_23-56-16.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
  2. You might be right, the counter is probably rubbing against the dinged top. The top will need panel beating or just simply replace it with one from a parts camera.
     
  3. And if you sometimes have the same luck as I do , the parts camera you buy is better than the one you're fixing :) . Peter
     
    cameragary and 10984403 like this.
  4. I opened the camera, and at least the frame counter moves when the top panel is removed. But it still doesn't lock into the next frame, but just slides back... so there's something else wrong as well.
     
  5. It's a Kiev. Just feel lucky you're getting the 10 pictures.
     
  6. Looks like spring loaded hook which should stop the counter as long as the back is closed, is very loose. It also looks like the spring has been already bent by someone else...

    spring.jpg


    photo_2020-11-23_21-57-07.jpg
     
  7. m42dave

    m42dave Dave E.

    Perhaps you have seen this already, but the site below has some good information on adjusting the frame spacing:

    Kiev 60 Kalibration

    It also appears that the film advance lever stop post seems to be missing off the top cover of your camera (fits where the hole is).
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  8. I have read that page earlier, but it seems to be about adjusting the fixed part of the frame spacing, while counter affects compensating the amount of film that is already on the spool. As the latter is not working, the spacing increases towards the end of the film.
     
  9. m42dave

    m42dave Dave E.

    As I mentioned, the film advance lever stop is missing--if the lever throw, and perhaps the amount of film being advanced, may not be consistent, could that be a factor?

    I was not aware that the frame counter compensated the spacing, though I have read that the spacing is sensitive to both careful film loading and film thickness.
     
  10. No, it can't be that because the film spacing consistently increased towards the end of the film. If it was due to advance lever stop missing, it should have varied from one shot to the next.
     
  11. m42dave

    m42dave Dave E.

  12. Unfortunately Pentacon 6 seems to have different frame spacing mechanism than Kiev 60. If I have understood correctly, Pentacon 6 attempts to actually measure the amount of film that is advanced, while Kiev 60 just estimates the compensation based on the frame counter. Which is why it being stuck is a problem.

    But anyways, I think I might have found what's the issue. The spring being a bit loose doesn't seem to be it, but the mechanism which resets the counter when you open the back. It pulls the hook, which stops the frame counter, when you open the back. But it looks like it doesn't go all the way down even when you close the back, so that the hook doesn't properly connect to the gears in the frame counter wheel. The next question would be how to fix it...

    video-2020-11-24-10-34-15.gif
     
  13. m42dave

    m42dave Dave E.

    The service manual for the Kiev-60 is available here:

    Kiev60Repair.djvu

    Document is in DjVu format (can be opened with the appropriate viewer or browser plug-in). It is in Russian, but does have parts diagrams.

    Also a YouTube repair video that may be of some help, though it's also in Russian.

     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  14. Actually I managed to get the frame counter to work. First I tried to bend the part of the hook that connects to the release mechanism, as I didn't find any other easily accessable way to fix it. Unfortunately it broke, as apparently it was some hardened metal and it couldn't take bending. But I managed to make a fix by gluing beer can aluminium to it, as the forces involved aren't that large. It even works, so I guess I'll test it with film...


    photo_2020-11-24_16-41-46.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
    peter_fowler and q.g._de_bakker like this.
  15. The two Kiev 60s that I bought brand new (one sent as replacement for a faulty one) had no frame-spacing mechanism whatsoever. Frame-spacing was based purely on rotations of the take up spool, which is obviously prone to gross error.

    They also had no mirror arrestor, which means you get mirror bounce and stray light through the viewing screen into the dark chamber during exposure. Plus intermittent flash firing, a flexible back that felt like it was made from an old tin can and a badly machined lens mount that wouldn't take Pentacon 6 lenses.

    That was a week's time and two lots of return postage completely wasted. So personally I wouldn't have a Kiev 60 as a gift, thanks. Let alone waste time and film with one.
     
  16. ^^ Anything that gets better with old beer cans has my vote :D:D:D !
     
  17. Looks like it works. In the next film I tested it with, the frames overlap the same amount (about 2-3mm) throughout the film. So I guess it's time to adjust the frame spacing according to the calibration guide. :D

    However, that guide tells to test it by loading a backing paper to the camera, and advancing it four times when the back is open. However, the counter doesn't advance while the back is open, so wouldn't this change the amount of the film advanced? I tested this with both the back closed and open. F and I marks mean full and initial, respectively, and the leftmost marks are with back open, and rightmost back closed.

    markers.jpg


    So, with back closed adjusting frame spacing to max would be a pretty good amount, while it would be a bit much if you go with the measurement done back open. On the other hand, if you measure it back open, it should have been about right at the beginning, so I guess that can't be correct...
     
  18. It's beginning to sound promising ! Peter
     
  19. Aaaand now it's working. I basically just set the frame spacing to max and it was just fine in the next roll. :)
     
  20. ^ These are the follow-ups I enjoy . Bookmarked for future reference . Peter
     
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