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Kiev 60 as compared to a Pentacon 6


jimmy_rhyne

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I posted a question dealing with comparing a Koni Omega Rapid and a

Yashica Mat 124G and now want to turn my attention to a low end

priced 6x6. I love my YMat 124G but it cannot change lenses. I have

read that if you get a modified/upgraded Kiev 60 you get a great

camera that produces the 6x6 and you can use the Kiev lenses or you

can use the Zeiss glass made for Pentacon.

 

I understand that both cameras have a maximum flash sync of 1/30

which is a bummer. However, from what I read the Kiev 60 which is

modified/upgraded can give years of results. Also, you can buy a

used Kiev, wear it out and have it refurbished. The Pentacon on the

other hand is not so sturdy and the repair shops seem to be limited.

 

Is there a problem using the Pentacon/Zeiss lenses on the Kiev 60?

Are there issues of incompatibility? I want to stay at a low cost

and now I must decide on the Pentacon, Kiev or the KO which gives

6x7. What are the ups of the Kiev as compared to the Pentacon with

particular focus on the use of Pentacon/Zeiss glass on a Kiev. Any

help will be appreciated.

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�with particular focus on the use of Pentacon/Zeiss glass on a Kiev.� I have Flektogon 4/40, Biometar 2.8/80 and Sonnar 2.8/180 lenses that I rate excellent, good to very good, and poor, respectively. They were made for Pentacon 6 in East Germany. I am using them with Kiev 60. The lenses matched well my first Kiev 60 that I had to return because of some technical problems. With the replaced Kiev 60 all lenses overshoot the infinity, i.e. objects at infinity appear sharp when focusing barrel is set for 30 m (with Biometar 2.8/80). When I called the vendor, I was told that they can adjust each lens for just $130 each!!! The vendor refused an option of making an adjustment to the camera. Well, I decided to do the job myself and succeeded by using thin plastic washers that I put between the lens barrel and the lens mount, thus slightly increasing the distance to the film. Well if you are lucky, like I would�ve been keeping my first Kiev body, you might not need to go through such aggravation otherwise be prepared �paying the price� for paying the low price. On another note, I consider Kiev 60 a very good camera for the money, and use it for conditions (e.g. rafting) that I do not want to put at risk my more expensive cameras.
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Why do you want to buy a camera of such poor quality that it has to be rebuilt by someone else before you can use it??? If you want a 6x6 with interchangable lenses get a good used Mamiya TLR. Lens choices are 55, 65, 80, 105, 135, 180, 250. Excellent optics, well built, available, repairable by any competent person, re-sellable, etc. Or get a good used Mamiya, Bronica, Pentax 645.
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i must echo geoff's remarks. with the exception of a few marquee brands, MF SLRs are the dodgiest beasts in the MF stable. you will get many more years of trouble free service from either a good rf model -- the mamiya press or rapid omega/koni -- or the mamiya interchangeable lens tlr system. i love the latter, and it sees quite a bit of use, despite a huge investment in hasselblad gear. the advantages/specific uses of TLRs have been much canvassed here, so i won't go into details. my main point is that you should really avoid problematic SLRs when there are som many cheaper, more reliable, and more versatile options available among RFs and TLRs. as a newcomer to MF, don't make your first experience a bad one. if you like the format, there will be plenty of time to check out different systems as time goes by. start with something solid and predictable.
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The Kiev 60 is nothing but trouble--I used one for a couple of years and it seldom completed a full roll of film woithout ruining some of the images for one reason or another.(and I had several "reworked" ones) The East German lenses sort of fit it--meaning you often need to grind here or there to get them to lock in place, and none I tried coupled correctly to the aperture mechanism of the camera without a lot of fooling around (wouldn't stop all the way down, wouldn't open all the way back up after the shot). The Pentacon cameras came with one of the worst focusing systems I've ever seen in an SLR. I guess you can replace the screen, modify it to use a Kiev prism (the only good thing about that dreadful camera), but there is no need for you to put up with all this nonsense when there are perfectly good and affordable alternatives. I have a Pentax 645 manual focus camera system now, and if you add up all the repair bills, shipping costs, and ruined shots, the Pentax costs me less than the Kiev system in the long run, and the lenses are better, the meter is WAY better, the film transport is better, the camera handeling way better, etc etc.
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Everything is a matter of personal taste.

 

Funny. I'm in the process of selling my Pentax 645. Why? I never use it because I prefer my Kiev 88CM.

 

I have a perfectly usable Bronica SQ-A kit with four lenses, AE and 45-degree prisms, second body, three film backs... I prefer using the Kiev.

 

I have a Mamiya TLR with three lenses. I prefer the Kiev.

 

There are others, but I think the list would get boring. ;-)

 

Of course, I don't mean to say Kievs are perfect or right for everyone. They do have problems due to lack of quality control at the factory and I think I've been completely honest about them on my Kievaholic web site. Still, where the factory fails, Kievcamera (to name one) has picked up the ball and puts out pretty decent products bearing the dreaded Kiev name.

 

It really depends on how you feel about your camera. If you don't care about the camera itself and just want something that works so that you can work, sure... avoid Kievs. But if you're a hobbyist who wants 6x6, something to have fun with, hope to get more than the basic 80mm lens at an affordable price, and you don't mind tinkering or putting up with less than perfect equipment... then Kievs are at least worth a look, IMO.

 

There are a lot of old, worn out or broken Kievs out there and if you try to save a bit of money by buying a camera of questionable quality off of eBay, then you really are taking your chances.

 

But that goes for other cameras as well. Heck, I got burned when I bought an old Bronica RB67 with light leaking film back, rough focusing rack, holes in the bellows, and a questionable lens shutter. Would I have been right to call all RB67's pieces of junk?

 

About the original questions...

 

Then P6 had a reputation for flaky film advance and dim finder. A Kiev Report member recently sent two P6's to Pentacon in Dresden, Germany and had them completely overhauled, installed Rollei screens, new film advance... the works. It cost $250 per camera if I remember correctly. That *may* be an option if you're willing to wait a month or two.

 

As for the Kiev 60, there are very few known compatiblity issues involving the K60 and taking P6 lenses. Film advance is an issue for some, but that problem hasn't reared its ugly head for a while now on the KR forum.

 

If you really, truly are thinking about going with a P6 or Kiev, I really recommend that you visit the Kiev Report forum on Delphiforums.com. The attitude is much less hostile towards these cameras there and you can get real user experience (good and bad) rather than a lot of hearsay.

 

Otherwise, good luck with the Koni Omega.

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Since both myself and Marek who posted above have used the equipment in question, I take exception to the "hearsay" comment above. This forum may not be 100% biased free on equipment, but its the best source of objective info about medium format cameras I have come accross. I wish I was on line 4 years ago and could have read about the constant problems people have had with the Kiev cameras before I wasted well over $1000 on unreliable Kiev equipment. All I had to go on was the claims made by the people selling the stuff at that time--talk about biased information.

 

Here are a few details of my experience with 3 different "re-worked" cameras. All came with inaccurate meters, had trouble coupling many of the lenses I used on them, suffered from curtain bounce and other problems that caused light streaks, body flare, frame overlap,etc. The Kiev made lenses were marginal at best even when stopped down, and just awful at the wider apertures. One of the test reports I saw tested them out at fewer than 20 LPMM at the wider apertures--right up there in Holga territory. The shutter is loud and jerky, and the 1/30 flash sync is a big limitation--I often got ghosting even using it indoors with flash. Parts occasionally broke off the body, like the pins that held the finder on, and the mechanisms for stopping the lens down. Two lenses I had ran into problems on the aperture coupling within the lenses as well. The clincher for me is when I had a camera repair person look at one of the camera I was having trouble with, (since the Kiev USA people couldn't seem to fix the light streak problem) and he told me the internal workings were so poorly designed and made, that a clean, lubricat , and adjust would not solve the inherent design problems.

 

Unless you are a glutton for punishment of take delight in constantly fiddling with poor quality equipment, stay away from this stuff.

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Hi, Andrew.

 

I don't mean any disrespect to your personal experiences, and if you feel that my use of the word "hearsay" applies to you specifically, I apologize. That is not what I had intended.

 

But online and in the "real world", there are a lot of people who like to repeat only what they hear rather than speak from personal experience. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Perhaps it is not as much of a problem here on Photo.net, but it is rampant on rec.photo.* and perhaps that is why I've become a bit defensive about the camera I choose to use.

 

About your own experiences, would you mind telling me where and when you got your re-worked cameras? Also, which lenses did you have? I am not trying to start an argument here... I would simply like to know what you went through because it sounds like your experience with Kievs was completely different from mine.

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  • 1 month later...

I did buy a Kiev 60 system with the 45mm, 80mm, Zeiss 120mm and Zeiss 180mm and love the results so far. The Kiev 60 is heavy but I use a Nikon F5 and F100 with AF-S lenses so the Kiev 60 is not that heavy.

 

The Kiev 60 has its quirks and things you have to learn about but so far the only thing I really dislike is the 1/30 flash sync. Other than that, I have really liked the Kiev 60 system I bought. For the record, it is possible to get the system I have from a reputable dealer for around $500. That is even sweeter music to my ears.

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