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Jumping ship


brad_n

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<p>I am sorry to announce that I am leaving the Pentax crowd and going to a Canon 7D. It was a difficult decision, especially given my investment in Pentax, and it was primarily driven by the availability of big bird lenses. I will be putting it all up for sale: K20, K10, DA*300, Sigma 50-500, (2) 540 FGZ flashes, Pentax 10-17, Pentax 18-85, Sigma 55-300 (?), battery grip Tamron 1.4x TC, Phoenix 2.x TC.<br>

I've always enjoyed this group. I have visited the "other" group, trying to decide what to buy, and it isn't the same. Pentax people are different: in a good way.</p>

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<p>Brad,<br>

Congrats on your new system. I hope to still see you here in the Pentax section from time to time. As far as Pentax people being different, I would have to agree, though most of the Nikon users I have met here on P.net are very cool and very nice. Sure you have some idiots, but you have them here as well...I am one of them ;-) </p>

<p>Blessings and take care.</p>

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<p>Brad,</p>

<p>We'll miss your herons :-(</p>

<p>You gotta do what you gotta do, and when I saw those first high ISO samples from the 7D and read its specs, I knew it would be a big hit with the wildlife photography crowd. There are people who do great with wildlife and Pentax, like <a href="http://enticingthelight.com/2009/03/24/shedding-the-light-on-marc-langille/">Marc Langille,</a> but it seems to me like you have to put more effort to acquire the equipment, and then make some concessions in AF and other performance issues. It's just more hard work than it should be, especially when you can go to B&H and in one single order get yourself an awesome wildlife kit from Canon.</p>

<p>Good luck, Brad!</p>

<p><em> —M.</em></p>

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<p>Brad, I had a look at the 7D and came to one conclusion. It does not fit my hands and the flash system is about the same as Pentax (in terms of exposure results). I see you have a grip in your kit and assume you like shooting that way.</p>

<p>Try the camera with a grip before you buy. I think unless you have monkey hands (a long thumb), you'll find it very disappointing. It's a beautiful camera and in many ways a game changer. But to reach the rear dial (to adjust aperture) is nearly impossible in portrait mode with the grip. I have seem a number of posts on Canon forums with users complaining of this shape issue. As a wedding photographer who uses the camera in portrait mode more than 50% of the time, I could never live with the controls for the aperture. Plus the grip does not have a second e dial like both Pentax and Nikon do. Sorry but it's a terrible design.</p>

<p>I have 2 second shooters that assist my photography business, one shoots a 7d and the other a Nikon D300s. In comparing flash results between the 3 systems, I'd buy the D300s in a heartbeat. The Canon is no better IMO than our system. Nikon is superior to both by a wide margin. In terms of higher ISO's and AF speed, there's not much difference between the 2 in the shots I've seen.</p>

<p>So between those 2 issues I'd suggest you try before you buy another platform. Not suggesting you shouldn't move elsewhere just where.</p>

<p>I agree with Javier and hope you drop by from time to time. Plus if you care to email me your gear list and prices, maybe there's something there I'd be interested in. ptz1961(at)hotmail.com</p>

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<p>I'm always amazed that the newest, latest and greatest is viewed as a "must have for my work" when the difference is so small, compared to what one has. I can see the need for a full-frame sensor on occasion but most of the crop sensors are pretty much equal. If you need better high-ISO performance the Pentax K-X is superb, in fact, dpreview claimed the K-X has the best high-ISO performance of any current APS-C-sized sensor.</p>

<p>As far as lenses go, Pentax has a number of nice long lenses. And with an adapter, and number of lenses are available for use on nearly all cameras.</p>

<p>Conversely, if you're going to invest in one of Canon's $5000 lenses, more power to ya. Those are superb lenses but only for the rich, professional or devoted. :)</p>

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<p>Best of luck, Brad.</p>

<p>I fully support Brad. Let this be a lesson to all gear manufacturers. We are customers, not employees. Brand loyalty is built through providing the customer the best tools that can be had at competitive prices, not through some sheep like mentality of the customer. Pentax makes a fantastic product but there are glaring holes in the product line that are no secret to anyone. If Pentax makes the business decsion to ignore these holes they are actively telling customers to go somewhere else. Apparently Pentax believes their business model is sufficient that they don't need customers like Brad.</p>

<p>I'm not saying Pentax is wrong. It's their train set and they can run it however they like. But Brad has only one single person to satisfy and that is himself. It's a shame Pentax gave away Brad's business to Canon. It's a shame Pentax doesn't believe sports shooters are a valuable customer base. It's a shame Pentax doesn't believe an affordable normal prime is worth making. Again, I don't run Pentax and I am thankfully not in a position to carry the responsibility of making Pentax profitable. Others are and they have to do what is best, which apparently is sending their current customer base to Canikon.</p>

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<p>Good luck Brad, I hope the move works out well for you. If you really need the long glass Canon and Nikon certainly have better options. People switch systems for a variety of reasons, some quite legitimate and others who think the grass is greener which ends with different problems. Each system has it strengths. </p>

<p>A few years ago I sold two Canon digital bodies and five lenses and moved to Pentax. My reasons were SR, a better newer digital prime selection, value, a better travel system and better ergonomics. For me it's worked out well. My only real complaint with Pentax for socal and event shooting is the flash system and I'll agree with Peter I find it pretty much the same as my old Canon system which is to say inconsistent in digital TTL, so I pretty much just use manual flash. I've considered adding a Nikon for flash performance. If my shooting required longer faster glass, high FPS and the fastest possible autofocus I'd move. Likewise I know a two pros who moved from Canon from 1D and 5D's to Nikon D3's.</p>

<p>I have a good friend a frequently shoot with who uses a 5d, 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 IS L's. The bulk and weight of that system would drive me nuts for social events and he frequently complains of it. The reality is we take pretty much the same images at an event; except my arms don't hurt at the end of the evening. I'll second Peter's comments do check out the ergonomics of the Canon closely before you buy. It's a very personal thing, but they just don't feel as "right"to me as Nikon or Pentax's. You might consider adding a few Canon pieces to see it they really are a good fit before selling off all your Pentax gear. That's what I did with my Canon gear before moving to Pentax.</p>

<p>Good luck and I sincerely hope you make the best choice for you and your photography in what ever system you choose.</p>

 

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<p>Too bad you have to make this move, Brad. As a matter of fact, I thought about you and your beamer yesterday as I was shooting that <a href="00Vc1p"></a> <a href="../pentax-camera-forum/00Vc1p">hawk</a> I actually tried to get the bird in the headlights but 1) it didn't seem to do any good and 2) it was awkward as hell trying to shoot dead ahead out the driver's side window ;~) </p>

<p>Since I really don't know anything but Pentax, I can't comment on the wisdom of your decision but I've always found your posts thoughtful and thought-provoking and instructive so I'll miss your presence here. </p>

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<p>I agree, the 7D was Canon's coming out party. Well at least for my needs. Unfortunately, I've never liked Canon ergonomics, so the best camera for my needs that is non Pentax is a D300, however, as a main system, Nikon cameras are too big, too bulky, and cost more, with cost being the least important factor in comparison to the other two.</p>

<p>Obviously the 7D also best Pentax in higher ISO IQ (comparing it to the K-7 since that is the only camera it compares with).</p>

<p>I've always said, if you need really long lenses, or super fast cameras, Pentax isn't the brand for you.</p>

<p>Fortunately, a lot of people don't need either of those, but the ones that do, will pretty much always be looking at Nikon and Canon to see what might fit their needs.</p>

<p>Pentax has, and hopefully will continue to make big glass, but right now the 300mm F/4 is as long as it gets. That just doesn't cut it with birders or sports shooters of outdoor field sports. And with the lack of impressive high ISO of the K-7 indoor sports took a bit of a plataue or even step back. despite having enough options lens wise to shoot those sports.</p>

<p>Good luck with the switch...and stop by every now and then, we'll miss the bird shots!</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>BTW, I don't agree with John.</p>

<p>The flip side is Canon doesn't compete with Pentax at all.</p>

<p>The 7D and K-7 are not birds of a feather.</p>

<p>Nor is the Canon lens system vs. the Pentax. As noted in the Nepal thread a few lines down. Pentax produces stuff Canon doesn't produce and you cannot replicate without building a Canonstein system of lens adapters, and 3rd party glass.</p>

<p>Personally, I'm not going anywhere, and there are many like me. Pentax needs to not get caught up in becoming Canon. I'll say it twice, once softly and once screaming...</p>

<p>You cannot take market share away from a market leader by emulating the leader.</p>

<p>Again.</p>

<p>YOU CANNOT TAKE MARKET SHARE AWARE FROM AWAY FROM A MARKET LEADER BY EMULATING THE LEADER.</p>

<p>There is a simple reason for this, what compelling reason would I have to switch to "unknown" Pentax if they made a mirror lineup to Canon? Absolutely nothing.</p>

<p>Now let me toss it the other way. Apple (whom I have absolutely no love for, but I do love what a mockery they have made of everyone else, including the brands I do like), produces relatively ho-hum products.</p>

<p>I mean the iPhone doesn't have basic features, 3 years after it's release that even entry level smart phones have, yet Apple is making tons of money on a 10% computer market share, as well as a 15% world wide smart phone share. Despite really not improving it's hardware, it's OS, or even blowing it's competitors out of the water with superior anything it increased it's sales 100% in the 3rd year of the iPhone. The reason? Well they carved a niche, made a name for themselves, and didn't battle Microsoft and Windoze head on.</p>

<p>Pentax can plug along at 5-10% world market share indefinitely, if it plays it's cards right. The idea that it can do anything whatsoever to steal significant market share from Canon and Nikon is foolish, but it can steal a percent or two here and there with significantly different products, and that alone is enough.</p>

<p>But what Pentax CANNOT do is build a system it cannot sell. While Brad needs 600mm birding lenses, most of the people on this forum aren't buying a $5000 lens. The market for that is so small it's not worth the investment or production cost. Pentax needs to keep it's product line small and effecient, and sell lenses and cameras it's core consumers want and need.</p>

<p>This is what struggling companies do. When Jon Rubinstein came to Apple in the mid 1990s, he went through, slashed everything on the drawing board and said, focus on a few high end products. He did the same thing at every struggling company he has turned around, and so far it's been a recipe for sucess.</p>

<p>Pentax cannot get bogged down in having inventory sitting on shelves for years, in this economic market, and todays world, having stockpiles of inventory is a thing of the past. Most stores keep very little inventory on hand, and Pentax needs to keep it's product lines nimble enough to meet the needs of retailers and consumers.</p>

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<p>While I agree with Justin for the most part. (I smirk every time my wife curses her MacBook) there's no reason to dismiss the 3rd party lens option. Sigma has the superb 500mm f4.5 with matching 1.4 and 2x TC's that might be the best available from anyone. So long glass isn't the issue.</p>

<p>The issue with AF has been getting better with the 2 new bodies and I suspect we will see another improvement in the next generation. The real issue is High ISO's. The K-7 did not address this. The newer KX has shown that they can do it and I assume the next models will be even better.</p>

<p>So with an improvement in AF and another KX style (or better) High ISO flagship APSc body, they will be in far better position. In fact you'll see almost no one switch away and others coming to Pentax because of the excellent glass and SR. You'll see the forums over at PF slow down drastically from bitching about AF and ISO's. That's the only thing people really complain about there. Well DA* SDM but that's another issue.</p>

<p>Pentax has focused the lens line-up in the area where the bulk of people shoot. Ultra wide to mid tele. The next lenses added to the line, have to be faster portrait length and mid tele (90 or 100mm and 135mm) followed by a 200 f2. I really think they need to add a 70 or 80mm -200mm f2.8 zoom as well. They are loosing far to much business to Sigma and Tamron with their versions. Make it WS and DA*II and they can have that market to themselves.</p>

<p>But to build a 500 or 600mm fast lens is just not worth it. You are never going to snatch the pro sports and wildlife guys from the big 2. It is much too small a market for the hobby shooter, to make a $8000+ lens that might sell 50 copies world wide a year.</p>

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<p>Excellent analysis Justin. </p>

<p>Pentax doesn't consciously want to lose any customers, but it cannot afford to keep every customer. Sony is big enough to subsidize losses from directly competing with Canon and Nikon. It would break Pentax in a very depressing way. By offering those multi-colored K-x bodies, Pentax is borrowing a page from the first iMac incarnations--which triggered the rebirth of Apple. That's not a bad template to use.</p>

<p>ME</p>

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<p>Good points, Justin. But there's another truth in commerce: You don't get any market share by being slow to market and several generations behind the competition, either. </p>

<p>Pentax has a good thing going. But there's justification for Pentax' univerally accepted image as the brand of High School kids and Old Farts. We Pentaxians know the image isn't true. Too bad nobody else seems to. The Kx was a step in the right direction. Pentax aren't idiots, I know that. They're just s-l-o-w and a little tone deaf.</p>

<p>If you are going to have a limited product line, that product line needs to be special and it needs to be complete. The special part is there: in-body shake reduction, Limited series lenses, excellent build quality and bang for the buck. Great strategy so far. But I had to buy a Sigma to get a consumer grade 70-300. Name three Pentaxians who don't own one of those... It's not a big dollar item sitting on a shelf, it's the logical Kit Lens Part II. Who wouldn't buy a kit version 35/f2 for $150? It would be a loss leader but I'm sure they're making it back for every Limited lens they sell. The price of Limited lenses has just about doubled since I bought mine. </p>

<p>Pentax is going to ride this in-body shake reduction horse until the horse dies of old age. VR and IS in lenses is getting to be the defacto standard for Canikon. The kit lenses come with it now. As the price drops and every lens sold has it Pentax won't seem so amazing anymore. </p>

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<p>John is right about Pentax missing a hole in their overall system. I went with Nikon <em><strong>solely </strong> </em> because of their recently introduced 35F1.8 DX (APC format) lens--which is a must have lens for me. But that hole is covered by the SIgma 30F1.4 lens, and imho a lineup of the Pentax Limited 21F3.2+Sigma 30F1.4+Pentax 77F1.8 is the best/most compact travel/street system there is. But the Limiteds are extremely expensive. A sprinkling of affordable primes wouldn't hurt as John points out.</p>
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<p>Yes true John W but look at those lines carefully. They don't cover all the bases either. If you were like me and wanted every lens to have VR or IS because I shoot weddings and need that advantage in some tricky shooting situations and a tripod or monopod is just not practical, then both of the big 2 are seriously behind. Neither has anything with SR below 85mm. The kit lenses don't count.</p>

<p>But like my comment on the 70-200mm f2.8, I agree that making the 50-200mm kit lens into a 70-300mm would be a wise move.</p>

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<p>I agree that they need to fill out the line up to 300mm. By no means am I saying, its a perfect lineup. Like Peter and Jon said, I shouldn't have to use a sigma or tamron lens. And tokina lenses should be available in Pentax mount as well. Rebrand them if you have to but if a Tokina lens is made it should come in kmount. A 90mm f2 would be a great lens in the lineup, as would something like a 300mm 2.8. I don't see a 200mm f2, but if they could get a lens over 135mm atF2 and make it affordable they might sell a few. <br /><br /><br />Fast primes: you do realize pentax had a 35mm f2 that I bet was better at all apertures than your nikon. And then there is the little known 31mm which is an OK lens so I've heard.<br /><br />the Limiteds are expensive but dollar for dollar quite cost effective. Not to mention superior image rendering</p>
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<p>Justin is absolutely correct: Pentax is a different game than the Canikon world. That is what it is.</p>

<p>"The Best Gear That Won't Bankrupt Us" should be the Pentax motto.</p>

<p>Now that isn't to say Pentax doesn't have much to improve upon. A more intuitive flash system, faster fps, a higher flash sync speed, and better high-ISO performance are just a sample. And as loyal Pentaxians, we should never apologize for kicking Pentax in the ass when they need it.</p>

<p>But Pentax doesn't need to stand on the sidelines of an NFL game, advertise on television, or sit in the hands of Annie Leibovitz for our validation.</p>

<p>Want a perfect example of why Pentax has a nice niche for itself, that serves most of us here very nicely?</p>

<p>My new Popular Photography has a blip about the new Nikon 300MM f/2.8 VR lens. I have no doubt that this lens is probably top in the class. As well it should; it's list cost is $5900. Let me say that again: $5900!!</p>

<p>I'll be honest, I don't want to live in that neighborhood. I could fill my own neighborhood with a LOT of fine Pentax gear with that $5900.</p>

<p>In my view, unless you are a true professional that insists on the latest and greatest gear, Canikon is a serious misappropriation of the LBA bank account.</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Great great points everyone. I'm a Pentaxian for a reason, too.</p>

<p>I don't expect Pentax to be on the sidelines of NFL games or to chase Canikon around. I get what Pentax' niche is. (Me) But it's hard to believe Pentax wants to build their business around hobby photographers with a little disposable income. I've got my K20d, a couple of Limiteds, and some doodads. I don't beat my gear and there's no reason to expect me to replace it any time soon. That's no business plan. If it turns out, God help them, that I am in fact the target audience then they shouldn't be sending me to Sigma for inexpensive zooms. Not when, to Justin's point, Tokina's in K-mount should be a given. Hell, Tokina lenses in K-mount should cost fifteen percent less than in other mounts in order to draw people to the house brand.</p>

<p>You would think wedding photographers would be flocking to Pentax. They aren't from what I read here on the Wedding forum. One would assume Pentax would think this is a market custom tailored for themselves. What's the hole in that system? Flash.. iso... possible full frame (I know, opinions vary), built in Pocket Wizard support... </p>

<p>Maybe I'm being selfish. I want Pentax to wrangle in every pro photographer they can and sell trillions of cameras. That's how schlubs like me get to buy top notch quality gear at an affordable price.</p>

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<p>I think a DA*400/4, something along the lines of a quality 80-400/4.5-5.6, and a good 1.4x TC to go with would probably satisfy enough pentaxians to slow exodus. The body improvements will continue to come--continuing to slightly lag the big boys in speed but providing markedly better value seems a sound enough strategy to me.</p>

<p>People like to knock K-7's high ISO performance, but frankly it's real close to K20D in absolute terms and was pretty much state of the art and competitive at time of release. Nikon D300 isn't dramatically better; so far, all I've seen that is APS-C and <em>significantly</em> better are the <strong><em>newer</em> </strong> Canon 7D and K-x. I think it's fairly safe to expect the next generation of bodies from all makers to have 7D and K-x as their benchmarks to try and match...many will succeed.</p>

<p>Anyway, good luck with your new equipment, Brad. Whether the grass is actually greener or not, sometimes we need to check it out ourselves to know for sure we're on the track that's best for us.</p>

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<p>John,<br>

<br /> I think we all want Pentax to succeed and prosper. But for them to “wrangle in every pro photographer they can and sell trillions of cameras” is a prescription for commercial suicide. <br /> <br /> Realize that for the professional market, unlike the retail consumer market, a camera brand is more than equipment and parts. It’s about solution design, high-touch service, honeying up key retail vendors, and multi-layer visibility and promotion.<br /> <br /> Today, infrastructure support and service is provided by the big two for 135mm formats, and the top brands in the medium-format market. In the old days, Pentax may have done some of this for the medium-format market. That’s the historical professional market for the brand. To expect the same for the APS-C cameras is unreasonable. We’ll see how the 645D plays out. Rolling out this product with weak on-demand support will constitute the “hole in the system.”<br /> <br /> From what I’ve been told, Pentax always straddled the line between advanced hobbyists and professional photo-journalists and event shooters--along with some VARs like Lester Dine fulfilling a key dental market. <br /> <br /> Some of this still applies today. My perception is that working pros using Pentax gear are very knowledgeable and persistent at solving problems creatively--Mis summarized it perfectly above, “It's just more hard work than it should be.”</p>

<p>ME</p>

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