Its not a matter of just price but performance.

<p>Look at this comparison, The M8 is such old technology that recent consumer grade cameras<br>

have leap frogged Leica.<br>

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/(appareil1)/250|0/(appareil2)/267|0/(appareil3)/202|0/(onglet)/0/(brand)/Leica/(brand2)/Canon/(brand3)/Nikon</p>

 

<p>That does it. I'm selling my M8, all my lenses, and I'm going to buy five or six D700 bodies + a bunch of their good glass. :-)</p>

<p>Pardon me for asking this.</p>

<p>Haven't you posted this very same thing here before?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>if he has posted the same thing before then let's ignore this?</p>

<p>It's a pity Nikon is not a woman, Harvey would have married it years ago.</p>

<p>It's not a matter of price or performance - But personal preference.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Haven't you posted this very same thing here before?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>But that was last month. Harvey evidently still feels strongly about it. :-)</p>

<p>I like mine. I also like my my D300. Two totally different cameras that accomplish two different types of shooting requirements for me....mind you photography is just a hobby for me. If you don't like your M8, get rid of it.</p>

<p>"For the same (Nikon D3X's) $8,000, you can buy a brand-new <a href="http://www.adorama.com/Refby.tpl?refby=rflAID021866&sku=LCM772B" target="_blank">Leica M7</a> with <a href="http://www.adorama.com/Refby.tpl?refby=rflAID021866&sku=LC2828M" target="_blank">28mm</a> , <a href="http://www.adorama.com/Refby.tpl?refby=rflAID021866&sku=LC5025SMU" target="_blank">50mm</a> and <a href="http://www.adorama.com/Refby.tpl?refby=rflAID021866&sku=LC9025SMU" target="_blank">90mm</a> lenses. You'd have a complete Made-in-Germany Leica setup for the same price as a stripped Nikon body alone." </p>

<p>Ken Rockwell strikes a blow for Leica 8-)<br>

<a title="Link" href="http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/return-2008.htm" title="Link">http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/return-2008.htm</a><br>

<br /> </p>

<p>I would never waste my money on an M8, Canon and Nikon far outperform the M8 for my requirements. The only Leica I enjoy playing with, very occasionally, is my Leica III. For anything serious, I whip out my 5D with an array of lenses.</p>

<p>Sorry guys if the comparison hurts your feelings about your main squeeze, but I never compared these cameras before. Sure we all commented on the DXO mark tests, but a month ago there was no test up on the Canon 50D and the Nikon D90 is also a new camera I was not familiar with.<br>

Vivek is still mad at me for reprinting a dozen posts that show that his fave Sigma 30mm is a lemon that has to go to get fixed at Sigma 50% of the time according to the posts I have seen before they are acceptable to their owners.<br>

Back to the point, a Nikon D90 or Canon 50D at about $1200 will run rings IQ wise around the M8 and that fact you cannot refute, look at all the tests out there by objective people, and stop taking shots at me, I am the messenger, its Leica who is making an overpriced underperforming hobbled camera. Whats with the filters, no other camera needs filters.</p>

 

<p>I don't have an M8, and I can't imagine getting one in the foreseeable future, so I have no 'main squeeze' to protect. </p>

<p>But Harvey, those tests you refer to "prove" things only to those genuinely interested in charts, graphs, lines, dots, noise measurements, etc.</p>

<p>It would be different, I suspect, if these cameras and lenses were actually driveway sealing material. Then I think we'd all be asking how much does it cost, how easily does it mix and spread, at what temperature does it dry, what proof do we have that it prevents cracking, how frequently do we have to reapply it, which labs have tested it and what methodology have they used, and so on.</p>

<p>For many photographers, all the "proof" they need -- or want -- is in the photos they take and the experience they have taking them.</p>

<p>Very true, Michael. I don't own an M8 either, but if I were to get back into digital, it would be the camera I'd buy simply based on the b&w from it I've seen here and elsewhere. I don't give a rat's ass about the things Harvey finds so important.</p>

 

<p>Ditto.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Vivek is still mad at me for reprinting a dozen posts that show that his fave Sigma 30mm is a lemon that has to go to get fixed at Sigma 50% of the time according to the posts I have seen before they are acceptable to their owners.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I really don't give a toss as to what sort postings you find to support the imaginary gear you never would use.<br>

So, kindly leave me out of your thinking. My response here was about your repeat post to promote DXO.<br /> You are no messenger.<br>

In fact, I would go as far as to say that you do not have any positive contributions whatosoever on anything.</p>

<p>Micheal S. as far as your observation, I believe that since none of us has all these cameras we often look at tests before spending our money. I used to like Consumers Reports for there car tests. I am liking the DXO tests because it remove emotion from the test. The reporting of machine measurements that reveal the resolution, color depth, dynamic range and high iso with low noise is of value. Subjective tests leave us to question bias on the part of the reviewer vs. machine tests that are repeatable. I trained and worked as an engineer so to me the tests are like a graph on an scope or a spectrum analzer. The facts are in the result of the machine measurement. <br>

Don if you need corrective filtration to balance out your sensor how can that be good for B&W?<br>

There are many who still use older model digital cameras but there are those who upgrade too. Leica is in the former category, it need a more up to date imager.</p>

<p>Harvey, while I agree with you about looking all the tested statistics, I find that numbers cannot transmit everything about a tool.</p>

<p>For example, if we only go by figures, we'd all be driving Toyotas. (What do you drive?) Nobody would drive anything costing more than a Corolla, as the price/performance equation would be violated.</p>

<p>Regarding the M8, and a D700, D3, IDsMkIII, etc., the handling, convenience, and dare I say, gestalt, of the experience can only be had by using it. If you're using them for generating money, it's one thing, but for a hobby the requirements are totally different. Granted, some hobbyists spend their time photographing newspapers hung on walls, so to each his own. In the end, which one generates passion within you?</p>

<p>Thanks very much for the link, it is quite entertaining and educational.</p>

<p>Best of luck with your search, and best wishes for the holidays!</p>

<p>"But Harvey, those tests you refer to "prove" things only to those genuinely interested in charts, graphs, lines, dots, noise measurements, etc."<br>

<br /><br>

But, when the Leica product (lens) comes out favorably with the charts, graphs, etc., Leica folks use that 'information' to declare their superiority over the Canon and Nikon glass. Odd, when it's the other way around, the tests are suddenly meaningless. </p>

<p>Whatever. In the end, the M8 is still good enough to make some pretty wonderful pictures. Anyone who needs to debate it either way is too involved with the wrong set of issues. </p>

<p><em>"... Anyone who needs to debate it either way is too involved with the wrong set of issues. ..."</em></p>

<p>Well said. Isn't that the <em>raison d'etre</em> for most internet forums, and cable TV news channels.</p>

<p>Vic come on now, where did I say we never care what the pictures are like, I never said it and never would. I am just sick of biased statements like " I think that the Dxyz is got the best IQ of any camera out there". Nice but back opinion with facts, never see it. Dpreview does an excellent job but we don't have multi brand tests on the cameras I posted. None of us have Nikon d90, Canon 50D and Leica M8 and the equipment to do a controlled scientific evaluation so the DXO mark is the best level ground based test that can be applied to each camera.<br>

I believe you pick a camera by looking at pictures and tests but pictures from photographers of different subjects are hard to compare. So at least Dpreview uses the same pictures at same iso and compares the cameras with charts too. But in the end we are seeing that the D90 and 50D run rings around the Leica for a quarter the price.<br>

Vic I didn't mention the D3 of 1DSMII, I didn't have to, they are FF and the Leica is a cropped sensor, They are high end cameras and my point is that the M8 cannot even compete with prosumer models that cost around $1200. Leica needs to update its sensor and processor and associated software to offer something worthy of the Leica brand.<br>

Vic read this<br>

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/(appareil1)/250|0/(appareil2)/267|0/(appareil3)/202|0/(onglet)/0/(brand)/Leica/(brand2)/Canon/(brand3)/Nikon</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Many years ago Consumer Reports rated the Miranda Sensorex much higher than the Nikon F.</p>

<p>"Don if you need corrective filtration to balance out your sensor how can that be good for B&W?"</p>

<p>Damned if I know, maybe the M8 b&w photographers here will let me in on their secret. What I've seen is among the best b&w digital across a multitude of photographers is done with an M8. Maybe I'm biased towards rangefinders and the kinds of photos rf users prefer, but I very much like the b&w I've seen.</p>

 

<p>I used a yellow filter with B&W film for decades. Not to mention polarizers and sky filters and red filters... Seems to me they should have left the IR filter out of the M8 entirely.</p>

<p>Doug lets see what does the red herring about CR old camera test have to do with their car tests I like, CR compares car under similar controlled conditions and measures the results, then they survey hundreds of thousand owners every year to find out what car systems fail and need repair. CR take no advertising and has no main squeeze. I have long looked for a camera magazine equivalent that does the same thing.<br>

So far I have seen a lot of straw dogs and red herrings brought up here but nobody can refute that the medium priced D90 and 50d don't eat Leicas lunch. <br>

I agree with the other Doug and Derek, yes Leica uses MTF and other tests when touting their lenses. And Doug, even today when you can fake filter effects in software and simulate various black and white emulsions in software and make any digital cameras B&W output look like anything you like the fact that you have to add a filter means something is already there on your lens that may get in your way of using another filter or polarizer.</p>

<p>Harvey why do you go on and on about this? I can't refute other cameras eat Leica's lunch because I don't have those other cameras to try. You don't have anything to offer beyond hearsay because you don't have the Leica. You can find a test or review to argue either positive or negative evaluations on the camera.</p>