Isn't F3's metering display idiotic?

Recently I have posted a couple of questions about the F3 and FM3A,

because I am about to buy one of these cameras. Sorry if I am getting

boring, but I don't want to rush the decision, so I want to know

every little detail before buying either one of them.

 

I would definitely go for the F3 if it didn't have that "+;-" kind of

exposure display. I find this very awkward, especially because the

photographer has to compensate quite a lot due to the heavily centre-

weighted 80-20 metering pattern. I don't like to use the automatic

exposure compensation, so whenever I have to compensate, I use manual

exposure mode, because I find that faster. With the FM3A, or even

with my modest FE10, one can immediately see the suggested exposure,

and it is quite easy to set the shutter speed to the desired

position. With the F3, one has to first twist the shutter speed dial

until "+;-" appears, and only then does the photographer know the

meter's suggested value, then compensate to his desired exposure

setting.

 

I have never used a camera with the "+;-" display, so I would like to

ask all those die-hard F3 fans how they manage to work fast with this

kind of display. Thanks.

Practice practice practice.... that's how you wor with these meters.

If my memory serves me correctly the F3 had a "new" metering type with that LCD display and it took a while to get used to.

 

I still lust for a F3HP........

 

>>>I have never used a camera with the "+;-" display, so I would like to ask all those die-hard F3 fans how they manage to work fast with this kind of display. Thanks.

In Auto Mode, my F3 shows the shutter speed in the display. The exposure compensation is a dial surrounding the rewind crank. If you want to set the camera manually, how significantly does the +/- display differ from the bar chart in an F5: high, low, right on? Nikon has sold a lot of F3's, which were made up to a couple of years ago. We can't all be idiots. If the F3 doesn't float your boat, so be it.

Idiotic...don't know about that.

 

I've used an FE that I owned for a short while and a friend's FE2 and although the metering system is intuitive, I find that the 60:40 metering pattern is more difficult to deal with. Despite the +/- readout, I can consistently nail more exposures with my F3HP's and their 80/20 pattern than any other manual camera. My FM2N drives me nuts in this regard having neither advantage, however the LED -o+ readout with 60/40 pattern works well for available light work. The FE/FE2/FM3A meter is hard to see in low light, worse than the F3. Actually you might like the FG meter since its a sort of LED version of the FE style meter.

 

How do I work fast? I guess its just all about familiarity with the camera. Every control falls where it should on this camera for me. Normally I work in manual mode and I simply point the center 80% weighted region at something middle toned. I basically use it as a spot meter. If you work the math and figure out the consequences of this weighting, you'll see that it basically is a fat spot. If its not middle toned, I quickly compensate with aperture and/or shutter after getting the middle toned exposure from the meter. Its second nature.

 

Every time I pickup one of my F3's after using the FM2N for a while, I marvel at the smoothness of the film advance! The FM/FE series just don't wind the same way.

I'm also a big F3 fan, but when using it in manual mode, i first select my shutter speed and then turn the aperture ring till the +- sign appears. It is indeed not very convenient to turn the shutterspeed-knob while looking through the viewfinder.

I would have preferred a readout like in the FM, using three symbols. This way you can see when you're over- or underexposing a little bit instead of having it the F3 way.

But hey,...the perfect love doesn't exist ;-)

I work fast by setting a shutter speed and twisting the aperture ring on the lens until I reach the desired +- readout. If I really need to work very fast, I set the camera to A mode and stop the lens way down for DOF and shoot. To answer your question: no, the display isn't idiotic, just different.

it took me a while to get the hang of it too. My biggest gripe is that, though the viewfinder is clear and bright in low light situations, the meter read out is impossible to see. I was surprised to find out though that the automatic settings do surprisingly well. I was shooting some pictures at a small dark club once and wanted to get a shot of the keyboardist in the corner. The other camera I brought which was much newer couldn't make heads or tails of the scene, but the F3 managed to get some at least properly exposed shots. I had just purchased it and was very impressed.

 

Tim

Sounds to me, Oliver, that you don't grasp the practical benefits of the F3's heavily centre-weighted meter.I'm also uncertain what sort of "compensation" you're concerned with or why it's a necessary in every shot. The 60/40 scheme common to most centre-weighted meters is easily thrown off, either by strong backlighting or bright areas near the subject, the result being underexposure. I don't find the F3 LCD a disadvantage but admit it is different from the match needle of the FM3A(I have a couple of FEs, so I'm familiar with that display).The F3's build quality is more robust than the FM3A, no question.Both bodies are compact and fast handling, thanks to good ergonomics and nearly identical control layouts. The really big difference between them, though, is flash metering. Though capable of TTL flash metering, the F3 is antediluvian in that dept. compared to the FM3A with its faster synch speed and ability to use ISO-footed speedlites. The display "issue" is a bit of a red herring compared to that.

Yup. The F3's LCD metering display is dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb. There's no reason to justify or apologize for it. Nikon should have fixed it years ago.

 

Otherwise it's a great camera.

I agree that the F3's metering display isn't nearly as intuitive

as the FM3a's (and all the rest of the FE, EL family).

<p>

There are two basic approaches to doing compensation when confronted

with situations that will fool your meter. One is to decide how

much more or less exposure you prefer, as opposed to the

meter's recommendation. As you describe, that's really easy to do

on an FM3a type display, but a bit more time consuming on the F3.

The other approach is to aim the meter's circle at something that

won't fool the meter, something mid-toned, and to hold the exposure

at that level when you shoot your desired scene. With its

highly centerweighted (80/20) metering, the F3 excels at this

latter method. To hold the exposure, you can either use the

AE lock button or put the camera in manual. Manual is often

more convenient on the F3.

<p>

I find that the meter's recommendation for autoexposure is right

for most scenes, and the proper exposure can quickly be metered

by pointing the camera at a mid-toned object for almost all of the

rest of the situations I see. Only rarely do I find a situation

where I want "X" stops over or under the meter's recommendation.

For those extremely rare sitautions, I can either use

exposure compensation or the method you describe of finding

the point where "+-" is displayed and adjusting from there.

<p>

The other aspects of the F3 make me prefer it over all the other

manual focus Nikons. But yes, it would be nice to have an F3 with

the FM3a's meter display.

Don`t be worried about your doubts... most of us always have a lot of questions before each buying.

 

Yes, you are right. The F3 +- "manual" display is not the best one. Also, the exposure compensation ring is very uncomfortable to use. There are better cameras for manual mode fans, the analogic or digital match needle display works better in this way IMHO. I prefer to use my FM2n in manual with the +o- red leds. Sometimes, the display of my F3 is hard to see. It could be one of the weak points of the F3.

 

The F3 compensation ring needs to be unlocked with one hand, and selected with the other. Forget it, unless you are working relaxed and confortably.

 

When I need to work fast... I use the "A" mode. Or even better, I take the F4. There is no sense to me to use a manual mode when I need to be fast, specially in a camera with AE mechanism.

 

Even so, I like to use my F3 just for pleasure (or for my macrophotography demands). I like it very much, but I can`t help you in a comparison with the FM3A because I never tried one of this.

There are always tradeoffs: sure is FM3A match needle more intuitive, but the F3 offers you the possibility to change viewfinders, and the meter not only always works, but you can see the information with all viewfinders. I know there are viewfinders for the F2 with the match needle style, but once you switch to an high magn. 6X you have lost the needle and the meter altogether. So the little F3 lcd has also its advantages, don't you find? Good luck, Marco

For years I resisted (& bad-mouthed) the F3, precisely because of the tiny LCD meter. I

much prefer the FM2 red LED's because I do a lot of low light photography. I used to have

an FE2 (similar meter to the FM3) and I never like that meter either because it is also hard

to see in low light and IMO operates backwards, i.e. adding more light makes the needle

go down instead of up like an F2 or an OM1 (both of which I have used extensively.)

 

However I finally purchased an F3 last year and I am loving it for the viewfinder and many

other reasons, including the heavily center-weighted meter. I have found that the heavy

MD4 is key to using this camera rapidly. When gripping the motor drive your fingers can

easily find the tiny button that illuminates the meter, and the AE lock button on the front.

These buttons are much harder to find without the drive. Also, the DE-3 (HP) viewfinder

tends to block the meter light button, I switched to the DE-2 and that makes the button

much easier to find.

 

Still, it is much easier to use in AE mode because of this, I tend to use AE much of the

time, then switch to manual only when necessary.

Mike & Richard's posts are spot on the method to be used. Also read some earlier postings of Lex to understand the meter better. Unless I am trying to photograph an extremely contrasty scene with a wideangle, I do not find arriving at the correct EV difficult or time consuming. And I used to use a modern camera with analogue meter display. It really is a fat spotmeter and use it that way. If you want to work fast, take the reading from a mid-toned subject using aperture priority, use the AE lock with your middle finger, recompose if necessary and shoot.

I have three F3's Before I got my D2h it was the only camera I used for my rock concert shots. ( I still use them now as second bodies with alternate lenses mounted) It allows me to work very, very fast. I use the F3 with a MD4 and the mr-3 as a vertical release.

 

When your only allowed to shoot the first three songs (About 8-12 minutes) you have to work fast and with multiple cameras.

 

The AE lock combined with the 80/20 meter allows me to operate the camera very, very quickly and repsond to light changes qucickly. (Light changes very quickly in a Rock concert).

 

Meter off of the face - set with AE lock. Recompose ,shoot, do it again. Any exp comp was dailed in prior to shooting based on the overall level of lights to compensate for ISO film needs. Final exposure is done via the AE lock.

 

I use the meter as a guide only. Never really go by any of my light meters really, they just get me into the ballpark. Then I turn on the meter between my ears.

 

The F3 is the best manual focus camera that I have owned for the type of shooting that I do. Yes it even beats the Fm3a, F4, F5, F2, Fm2n, Fe, Fm, Fa, Fg, F, - tried them all.

It may seem to be awkward, but it's not. For one thing, you have the shutter speed indicated on the LCD, so if it says "+", then turn to a higher shutter speed - if you are keeping the same aperture. Here's the key: Nikon shutter speed dials go to higher shutter speeds as you rotate the dial clockwise. In practice, this means to put your finger on the shutter speed dial, and pull outwards. If you want to go to a longer shutter speed, push your finger towards the prism. This works for my F3 as my FG.<p>As far as apertures are concerned, clockwise rotation of the aperture ring (as you hold the camera, viewing through the finder) gets you to smaller apertures. Again, the ADR lets you see what aperture you're at, so it's not as if you have to guess all the time.<p>As a guide, remember that clockwise rotation gets you to smaller time or apertures.<p>The only other issue is that clockwise rotation gets you to infinity focus with almost all Nikkors except the 45mm GN. Coming over from Canon FD, this last issue really made me confused 20 years ago. I still slip into the Canon mode of focusing, but knowing which way does what helps you react quickly in manual focus mode.<p>I have to compensate far less for the 80/20 "fat spot metering" of the F3 than the 60/40 center weighted metering of the FG. Put the central 12mm finder circle on your subject, and you've metered off your subject.<p>If you really have to work fast, just spin the shutter speed dial or aperture ring one click one way, and two clicks the other way to get a 1 stop bracket in either direction.<p>Just like playing the violin or piano - with practice comes muscular memory that reduces your need to think about it.

Yes, the metering display is dumb. Nikon realized that and took the F3 off the market (after 24 years).

Sorry... here 's the rest of my answer : The display is too small and thus hard to read in a glance. The way the info is displayed is not of such a nature that you know instantly what is happening. The LCD is also rather dim and it is too hard to press the well known ridiculously small lighting button, which sits in an awkward place too. It is not difficult to imagine a better solution for all this, but I do love that camera anyhow!

The AE lock button, which enables locking the exposure at various finer increments other than what is read out on the gray LCD finder, would be terrific - if you could actually reach the damned thing while the MD-4 is mounted. I have fairly long fingers and still have trouble reaching the AE lock button consistently.

 

As I said, dumb, dumb, dumb. What's the point of having a stepless shutter in AE mode if you can't see it on the LCD?

 

The red LED readout on the FM2N is better. Much easier to read at night. Dead on; a little over; a little under; a full stop off. Easy.

 

The Canon T70 was an excellent example of how to integrate multipurpose gray LCDs and red glow-winky LEDs to let you know everything that's going on without overwhelming the user with information.

 

So how do I work fast with such a dumb camera? Same way Clint Eastwood could use a revolver to hip-shoot a bad guy from 100 yards away. Years of experience and intuition.

<em>"Yup. The F3's LCD metering display is dumb. Dumb,

dumb, dumb. There's no reason to justify or apologize for it.

Nikon should have fixed it years ago." --Lex Jenkins<br>

</em><br>

Well said, this is my least appreciated feature on the F3. I

understand why Nikon did not use the ruby red LED + 0 - indicator

of the F2As but why they gave only a + - display and why they

didnt use an LED back light when the MD-4 is installed I

cant figure. The infamous red back light button is tightly

related also. The back light was easy to use on the F2As so why

not on the F3. I only bought an F3 about a year ago. If Nikon had

addressed these issues better in the original design Id

have bought an F3 & MD-4 back in 1980~81.<br>

<br>

I bought an F3 primarily because the metering, ambient and

standard TTL are not lost when the DW-4, 6x finder is installed.

I use this primarily for macro. Also there is no metering change

with the use of different focus screens. When I use a U screen

with telephotos I dont have to stop and set compensation

for the extra brightness. I dont even want to think about

metering with an M screen with other Nikons. The F4 and F5 retain

only a spotmeter when their 6x finders are used. If hiking and if

I want a 6x finder I can leave the MD-4 and carry a rather light

camera.<br>

<br>

<em>"I have found that the heavy MD4 is key to using this

camera rapidly." --Neil Parker<br>

</em><br>

After using the F2As with MD-2 and MB-1 I find the F3 and MD-4

quite pleasant. I dont remember the sound level but the F3

& MD-4, along with the F100 and F5 has spoiled me on using

the FM2n & FE2 with the MD-12. The later is just so loud and

the F3 and MD-4 is so quiet.<br>

<br>

<em>"It may seem to be awkward, but it's not. For one thing..."

--Robert Lai<br>

</em><br>

This is one of those things that is harder to explain than do.

The whole post is worth a second read and worth a good try.<br>

<br>

<em>"If you really have to work fast, just spin the shutter

speed dial or aperture ring one click one way, and two clicks the

other way to get a 1 stop bracket in either direction." --Robert

Lai<br>

</em><br>

For 2 or 3 years I used first a Nikon F with no meter and then a

Nikon F2 without. This means no ADR and no shutter information

in the finder either. This technique works fine even when you

have to do it completely by feel. Its really easy with the

shutter speeds and with practice not really difficult with the

aperture either.<br>

<br>

<em>"The only other issue is that clockwise rotation gets

you to infinity focus with almost all Nikkors except the 45mm GN.

Coming over from Canon FD, this last issue really made me

confused 20 years ago." --Robert Lai<br>

</em><br>

This problem should fade pretty quickly. Its a major reason

why I dont own any non-Nikkor lenses for my Nikons. Due to

a brand-X 400/6.3 lens I developed a reflex for focusing

telephotos backwards. When I got an 80~200/4.5 I found myself

focus correctly at the short end and backwards at the long end. I

got rid of the 400/6.3 and the problem faded quite soon.<br>

<br>

<em>"I don't like to use the automatic exposure

compensation, so whenever I have to compensate, I use manual

exposure mode, because I find that faster." --Oliver Racz<br>

</em><br>

I do the same. Im going to throw out an alternate to the FM3a.

I dont know how much you are planing to spend on the F3 but

you might find you can afford both an FE2 and an F3 for a similar

cost to the FM3a alone. Despite its name the FM3a is an FE

family camera and very close in design and layout to the FE2. A

camera repairman friend says they are identical as viewed from

the base of the camera. Obviously the FM3a has the hybrid shutter

that gives full manual speeds with no batteries but the S-76 type

batteries used by both the F3 and FE2 are so easy to carry there

is no problem with spares. Some people carry spares in their

wallet.<br>

<br>

There is one feature on the FM3a that I dont like as well

as the FE2. That is the exposure lock. On the FE2 you press the

self-timer lever towards the lens to lock the exposure. I find I

can hold this while stroking the film advance lever and shoot a

few shoots without switching to manual exposure. The FM3a has an

exposure lock just to the left of the film advance lever. You

can't hold it and advance the film manually. Now that I have the

F3 I'm less inclinded to use my FE2(s) with the MD-12 so this is

more important now. Anyway...<br>

<br>

In suggesting an F3 and FE2 both, Im saying you can almost

have your cake and eat it too at about the same price as an FM3a

alone.<br>

<br>

Regards,<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.

Yes, it is stupid, but it's not a big deal as you suggest.

 

If you can't live with this problem, maybe you should try a meterless camera. Then you would have problems to complain :)

 

I don't think it's a major problem. Meter with patience :)

 

Good luck.

Thank you for all your inputs. I think you convinced me that it is possible to grow into the dumb display, and I have enough confidence in myself that it won't cause a problem.

 

I don't want to buy two bodies, because one of them is never going to get used. My primary body is a 6x6 medium format camera (without a built in meter, by the way. But in this field, I have more expectations from a 35mm SLR), and I usually carry my FE10 to complement that. I want the F3 for those times when I cannot, or do not want to carry the medium format stuff around. I have a much better opinion of the FE10 than most others have, and it has a quite straightforward metering display, so it might complement the F3 just as well as an FE2 would.

 

Thank you once more.

Still the best camera ever made, except, of course,for the Leica M3!

Yes. But you get used to it quite quickly, and never give it another thought after that.

Still the best camera ever made, except, of course,for the Leica M3!

 

I really tried to like the Leica’s. Just couldn’t. Ergonomic nightmares.