Is this forum still alive?

<p>I can now come on here once a week and in 15 minutes, read all the new posts.</p>

<p>WHAT HAPPENED? Did the weeds take over the garden? Why are new posters being scared away? Did the board not get policed properly? Did the pro photogs who wanted to help mentor the new photographers get drowned out by the know-it-all boisterous ones? I'd really like to know.</p>

<p>I really wish this could be turned around because at one time 3 or 4 years ago, it was a heck of a forum to learn and bounce ideas off each other. Now it is only crickets chirping.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Perhaps the majority of former participants have work and are busy... including the " know-it-all boisterous ones".</p>

<p>Sadly Wade I agree with you. I used to love this site and frequented it often. I thought I'd try to stir the pot with an image for discussion. I selected an image that had plenty of opportunity for learning and that had good and not so good elements about it. My efforts were met with harsh opinions from it was not focused or captured correctly to it just flat out didn't meet professional standards. That's a pretty harsh statement and perhaps why people won't put themselves out there. Its no secret that putting anything on line can be discovered by prospects and clients. How would you feel if the photographer you hired or were planning to hire was tagged with comments like its not professional work? Of course, you'd be miffed and reluctant to post anything more. Making matters worse, the protagonists seem to pile on to the emotion of the image or get lost in meaningless banter about EXIF data (when the more complete metadata is the standard for editing and graphics, but I digress) to what end? Who cares what camera or settings were used to capture an image IF the information isn't used to convey a point or educate? Even more egregious is the "experts" who readily smear the poster are ignorant to the impact their comments have not only to the original poster's reputation but to the community in general, again, why would someone participate in an activity likely to cause more harm than good? Its easy to hide behind cliche's of you need to have a tougher skin or you asked for help but don't like what's said. - You want to know the real fun part? Yep, they are so confident in their own work they post nothing to show what a "professional" image should look like or at least give us an opportunity to evaluate their work so we know what emphasis to place on it. Kind of makes you sad for the lost opportunity. What qualifies most to make a critique? Sure, impact is the biggest part of the image's success, but there are many other elements that go into a successful image. Communicating clearly with knowledge is sorely lacking. Its not a too much sky, its too much negative space, its not the subject should be larger or isolated from the background, its formal and informal balance are off. What about color harmony, highlight control, shadow detail... way too much but then again I don't do professional work so I should quit bitching.<br>

I asked the same question just the other day, I was pointed to several links where this issue had been discussed in the past. Sadly previous laments were not addressed so the forum continues to wilt and the question is asked again. Why did I vent so much about my experience? Sure part of it was to vent the frustration, but most was because I see something dying, right in front of me, I attempted to inject something into the mix and instead of feeling like I could participate in a safe environment, I was judged inadequate, without concern for the impact such comments may have on my business and without explanation, my original intent overlooked even though clearly stated to stimulate conversation. Did it stimulate conversation? sure did, was the conversation worth the effort - nope, it was misunderstood, I should have been more clear in my post I guess. Will I do it again? Maybe, I don't know. I do know I am a full-time professional photographer who lives an extremely good lifestyle from my efforts. <br>

So I support you in your desire to see a more robust forum. I throw the gauntlet down to the others in the group, especially the more active members to post an image from their last wedding (which should be their best work yet) and use it as an opportunity to allow others to see their work so as to develop their own opinion regarding the weight they should put into the person's input and to educate the others who aspire to be like them. I've proven my worth to myself and my peers through my education and sustainability. I'm an active member of the professional organizations that relate to my business (PPA, WPPI) I attend both ImagingUSA and WPPI conferences at great cost so that I stay current in trends and techniques. I'm a CPP and will obtain WPPI-C when its released later this year so rest assured I am a professional and I can withstand any critiques given. What's the expression, Money Talks, BS Walks. I hope my challenge is accepted, its just what this group needs to move forward.</p>

<p>I haven't posted anything in ages and lost interest due to an over-abundance of opinions by newbies and those who operated with marginal profit from churn & burn business models. PC policing didn't help. True mentorship attitudes and values were lacking....artistic justifications for poor craftsmanship wore me out. Good luck.</p>

<p>Perhaps there's been a global shift in attitudes towards photography. I know myself, I've gone from film, through dslr's, to just pulling out my cell phone as often as not.</p>

<p>I still try to keep my hand in, having been shooting and processing a little Tri-X of late, but...</p>

<p>I hope this discussion doesn't get closed; it's worthwhile, not detrimental to the site.</p>

<p>Another indication that this group needs a reality check is that in today's market photographer's have to have excellent business acumen to succeed. The industry is full of fauxtographers and part-timers. It seems being a photographer is cool on fb so there are lots of mamarazi's who shoot and burn for free or significantly lower than market rate. Clients prefer cell phone images to professional prints and longevity of images on social media sites is about as long as the next status update. I'd love to help with issues such as marketing, customer service, new business development, in-person sales techniques and other tried and true methods to increase profitability but there appears to be no interest in this group to discuss such things.<br>

How many people loose money because they are not doing in-person sales sessions? Why is a dvd a bad business choice and how can we educate our client's so they buy quality not quantity. How can an investment in presentation software such as ProSelect ($1,000) streamline your workload and improve sales. When do I need studio management software, all these and many more topics like this are what this forum is about. You can be a really mediocre photographer and still outperform your competitors if you understand how to operate your business effectively. The reality is that images are the initial hook but the quality of images you take has zero to do with your business viability. In fact, I'd postulate that working too hard to get the "perfect image" will do more harm to your business than you think. I see often wedding photographers lamenting that they have to sort through 2,500 images and I think to myself "we're they making a video"? But discussions like how many images to take, how many to present are not part of the culture here but should be. Image discussion is important but without business savy your viability is greatly limited....<br>

Let's change that and help educate those who are aspiring, let's learn from those who are more seasoned, but above all let's realize this group can only grow when free open expression is met with tolerance to every level and ego's aren't attacked</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Perhaps there's been a global shift in attitudes towards <a id="itxthook7" href="/wedding-photography-forum/00d4gy" rel="nofollow">photography<img id="itxthook7icon" src="http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png" alt="" /></a>. I know myself, I've gone from film, through dslr's, to just pulling out my cell phone as often as not.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree. I'd expand a bit though and say that the idea of a fulfilling and profitable career in wedding photography — an idea that seemed bright and compelling six or seven years ago — has faded. Lots of factors here.</p>

<ul>

<li>The flood of new photographers into the market meant that it became exponentially harder to get business for (almost) everybody. </li>

<li>The rise of sites like Instagram, Facebook etc has accompanied a change in the attitude of consumers to photographs. I don't know whether Instagram and Facebook etc are the causes of this change or the effects. I do know however that a lot of potential clients are more interested in quantity and immediacy than in quality. They want to see 500 photos online by the day after the wedding.</li>

<li>The flood of newbies offering services for very low prices — combined with the fact that clients think that it costs nothing to take a digital photo — has caused brides to expect to get their photographer on the cheap. Caterers don't have this problem: Everybody understands that good food costs money and takes time to prepare.</li>

<li>A change in attitudes towards marriage has had an impact on what clients want from their wedding photographer, although I find it difficult (and a little awkward) to describe what's going on here. </li>

<li>Forums like this one are less necessary than they used to be because there are a lot more resources available now on the Internet and elsewhere for aspiring photographers than there were five or ten years ago. There must be dozens of books available on wedding photography. My sense is that even a fair number of top photographers have turned to teaching to supplement their income, perhaps because there are now more students than clients. (That'll change soon, too. The success of Creative Live contrasted with its small in-studio audiences suggests to me that it's gotten much harder to get a local audience for a seminar: the audience now has to be global.)</li>

<li>Improvements in the technology of cameras have made it harder to take bad photos and easier to take okay ones. In-camera exposure and autofocus systems are amazingly good: nobody needs to know how to use a light meter, or do exposure math (you know, f5.6 @ 1/100th sec = f2.8 @ what?). The ability to shoot at, say, ISO 1600 or even higher has allowed a lot of new photographers to think they don't need to know much about the flash. Live view means never having to say you're sorry.</li>

<li>The maturing of the technologies related to digital photography — not just in the camera but on the computer — has created a dizzying range of creative options for photographers, and this range of options encourages many to think that there's really no shared craft of photography that must be mastered by all, but rather that we are all free to create art for ourselves. </li>

</ul>

<p>What's happened in the world of photography in the last decade often reminds me of the desktop publishing "revolution" in the early 1980s. That too was a tough time for a lot of established pros. Back then, people with 20 years of experience and a lot of knowledge (about printing, typography, design, layout, editing) found themselves competing with secretaries and students who knew nothing but owned a Mac with Pagemaker and a LaserWriter. Some pros adapted and survived; others didn't. As for the new enthusiasts, some went through a period where they were eager to learn. But that period of learning didn't last all that long — maybe a decade. Eventually people got bored with desktop publishing. And when the world wide web arrived, PageMaker and the LaserWriter became obsolete.</p>

<p>In a larger sense, the desktop publishing revolution coincided with the revolution in personal computing, and that larger revolution is analogous to the larger revolution in photography in the last decade. Didn't I just read that the APPLE iPhone is now the largest-selling or perhaps most widely-used type of camera in the world? The changes in the business of wedding photography are simply a small part of that larger change in the social role of photography generally. I helped run a Mac users group at a major university in the mid-80s. For several years our "MUG" had hundreds and hundreds of members. Meetings had to be held in an auditorium because so many people were eager to learn about the new technology. But by 1990, membership was falling off sharply, because the novelty of personal computers had worn off. People didn't need a users group to help them because they knew already how to use the computer; or they had a friend, or could buy a book. Across the country (and the globe) local users groups died — then got reincarnated as internet forums or discussion lists. </p>

<p>•</p>

<p>The lists at other sites remain active. DPReview seems to be doing well. But it seems to me that most of the discussions at DPReview have to do with cameras rather than photography. Those are conversations aimed at consumers, rather than photographers. The question "What's the best camera to buy?" has almost nothing to do with "What's the best way to photograph weddings?" The first question is easy to sink your teeth in, easy to argue about. The second question is so open-ended that it doesn't even seem like a valid question.</p>

<p>I notice that some photographers continue to do well. In the part of the world that I know pretty well, some of the success stories are folks who are really amazing photographers; and some of the success stories are folks who are not so amazing photographers (although usually competent) but have the personality or marketing skills to succeed. I admire both groups of people and begrudge nobody's success. </p>

<p>It's a great time to be a photographer — so long as you don't need to make money doing it.</p>

<p>Will</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Well said. I am glad I am not alone. I am a professional and you'd think some of the posters got the Pulitzer Prize in photography....every year...for the past 10 years.<br>

In fact, they have a lot of experience and seem to only remember the .00005% great photos they took....and try to spin themselves off as that was the norm for them. <br>

</p>

<p></p>

<p></p>

<p><blockquote>Moderator note:</p>

<p>Please note the content above is verging on a personal attack.</p>

<p>Personal attacks are not tolerated here.</p>

<p>Although it does not specifically identify a member, it is a generalized attack on other community members.</blockquote></p>

<p>I think the number of people who can distinguish between a competent photo of an interesting subject and a truly exquisite one have diminished somewhat. The number of people who actually care and are willing to pay for the difference is almost nil. Also the market is flooded by photos because smart phones are ubiquitous and pretty good cameras to boot. You run up against the million monkeys on typewriters event. The odds of a satisfactory image being captured by someone with dumb luck have gotten much better. The business was tough when I was in it in the '70s. I'm glad Im not competing today -- though I think the quality of my work is much better than it was back then -- I would hope the 40 years and about a million images has had some benefit.</p>

<blockquote>

<p ><strong>MODERATOR NOTE:</strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p > </p>

<p >Some content of this discussion has clearly broken the Terms of Use and User Guidelines of this Site and has been removed.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >This is unfortunate because some of the other content is valuable and constructive and the discussion was engaging and showed pro-activity by the community.</p>

<p > <br>

This thread has now been re-opened. I trust it will continue in a positive and useful path</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong><a href="/photodb/user?user_id=493790">Mark Harrington</a> , Jan 18, 2015; 12:51 p.m. </strong><br /> <em><strong>I'd love to help with issues such as marketing, customer service, new business development, in-person sales techniques</strong> </em>and other tried and true methods to increase profitability but there appears to be no interest in this group to discuss such things.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Good, very good. Writing as a member of this "community" I encourage you to do that.</p>

<p>But, have you posted your views here at Photonet on these topics recently? (that is rhetoric, to make the point below)</p>

<p>A forum does not necessarily need to stay in the “ask question” >>> “supply answer” mode.</p>

<p>Members of the “community” here can supply their point of view and as such promote a discussion on any topic that is related to Wedding and Social Events.</p>

<p>Personally my view is that your recent posting an image for comment was both pro-active and also useful; and probably also result of your interpretation of some comments that you received on your previous thread.</p>

<p>WW</p>

My very brief attempt here to begin a dialog has resulted in questions about my competency as a professional, that's a

pretty rough begining. I need some indication that I won't be wasting my time and effort before launching suvch a

discussion. Perhaps that is why it isn't already being discussed...

<p>You might note that I have used the 10 minute window to edit my post above.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>Well, I expect that you are referring to the previous image posting thread that you began.</p>

<p>Again writing as a member of the “community” I read that the Original Post and also the majority of comments as being quite useful for any Newbie and of some use to seasoned professionals. My blunt but sincere opinion is that you might be a tad too sensitive to some of the comments. I think that the general thrust of the thread was positive.</p>

<p>My general statement in my role as a Moderator: is that any member can contact me if they feel that guidelines have been overstepped </p>

<p>I cannot see that you answered Ian’s question – perhaps if you did it would be clearer to all, what was the prime reason of the original post.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>Chiming in as a non-wedding photographer, who usually only goes through this forum to learn rather than contribute...</p>

<p>In general, photo.net seems to be slowing down considerably, and that has been discussed several times in several other forums. The fact that this forum is also slowing down is, as far as I can judge without access to actual site data, symptomatic for the whole site.<br>

I don't doubt the profession of a photographer has changed very considerably in the last decade; photography has become a far more democratic medium and no doubt that makes it harder for the really skilled and educated to stand out from the crowd. At the same time, I think defensive replies to the situation along the lines as "people do no longer see the difference between a mediocre and a good image" and "other people with other business models are ruining my business" are helping anyone. Even if people cannot see the difference between Uncle Joe's iPhone and your photo, they are your prospective customer - one way or another, they have to be swayed/educated to become a real, paying customer. Not saying this is easy, but pointing fingers at them gets you nowhere. Same goes for those who are disturbing your market with unsustainable business models. Again, not saying it is easy, I do have just about enough business acumen to understand that it means compromises you wouldn't want to do - but you do want to end out on top, so you'll have to deal with them. Lamenting their existence won't make them go away.</p>

<p>If you're dedicated to make this forum relevant and useful for those starting out in your profession (and I applaud that seriously, I think it's a great way to share), it has to be a positive, engaged angle. If I'd be a starting wedding photographer, and posted here to only see replies "the market is disturbed by those young upstarts" and "back in the days, people respected our work, but nowadays they all just snap their cellphone", I'd be out of here - regardless of how good your advice is.<br>

Sorry if I sound harsh, negative, or cross with anyone - this is most certainly not the case - but the question "<em>are new posters scared away</em>?", I think to a certain extent, the answer is 'yes'. This goes for all parts of this site, not just this forum. It (in parts) requires us to reflect on what we want to represent as a community; if we want young blood to flow in, we better accept that Instagram, smartphone and lomography are part of the job now.</p>

There have been some recent threads with good discussion. Maybe it's not as well as it could be from the comments. As

someone with a lot of experience I appreciate the comments of people like Bob and Michael Mowery.

An active board doesn't necessarily indicate a quality board, just more talking.

Occasionally there have been some good threads. Inasmuch as I have just bought some new gear I

have spent some time on DP trying learn something about it. IMO there is very little comaradery there.

It is mostly about gear and it gets heated over some trivialities IMO. I have been shown

respect and friendly discourse here in the past. I cite WW as a good example of that. This site has just

slowed down. I check it almost every day hoping to somehow get into some good conversation the

opportunity for that has been diminishing IMO.

<p>Good discussion. I hope it turns around here. I'll be the first to help.</p>

 

<p>What kills a forum most quickly is a lot of whining about it and not doing anything.</p>

<p>There were two posts today on the forum requesting business assistance. Both were made many hours ago.<br /> <br />Did the people whining and complaining respond? Responses would help keep new posters around and attract new posters when they see that good advice is being given. The answer to the question at the beginning of this paragraph is "Of course not. Much more fun to complain!"</p>

<p>One post garnered responses from a wedding photographer and someone who is not a wedding photographer but is knowledgeable about business and photography. The other post had responses from two people who are not wedding photographers, one who is a very occasional wedding photographer and a retired wedding photographer. But not one response came from anyone who made negative comments here here or on other recent threads about this forum.<br>

<br />Look deep into the mirror and see if you can figure out what is hurting the forum.</p>