Is our advice responsible?

<p>The last few posts about, " I'm about to do my first wedding "<br>

These people have been clueless. <br>

they are like people about to walk across a rope over a canyon with their eyes closed, saying well once in a parking lot i walked across the top of a curb stone. <br>

Why are we telling them anything but a very loud NO!</p>

<p>I know why they will ignore us, so you try to help. <br>

I'm all for helping the ones that are at least near ready. But Come on, a point n shoot camera and a portfolio of 6 photos of their on kid sitting in the sun. Tell them NO.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Shawn, I can think of quite a few achievers who dared to try and triumphed.</p>

<p>It doesn't come without failures and a few hard lessons, but isn't that a part of any process?</p>

<p>What if your 12 year old daughter came to you and said she wanted to buy a fixer-upper car with her babysitting money? Would your reply be an emphatic NO? <br /> <a href="http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/085309.html">http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/085309.html</a><br>

<a href="

<p>No I would of had four years to help her fix the car and teach her how in the process and i i know how to fix cars. In fact my sons first car we paid $ 100 bucks for it. It was missing a wheel and had the engine apart. <br>

My my son had said he was going to buy a fixer upper limo and take a job driving a bride to her wedding in seven days. I would have said NO.</p>

<p>I can think of quite a few achievers who dared to try and triumphed.<br>

It doesn't come without failures and a few hard lessons, but isn't that a part of any process?</p>

<p>Michael what bride and groom deserve to be the customer for someone's failure and hard lessons?</p>

Well, I often wonder myself, but I then decided to give a simple concise answer and maybe a little more comment after

and that's it. There is already a whole section on wedding photography to read under learning, and there are plenty of

tutorials on YT if they are so inclined or motivated. I can only relate to my son who is 26, about two years ago their friend

got married, it was super low budget, I gave them some coaching and about four people used p and s and phones and

posted everything up, and it was really pretty admirable. So, that's how I look at it.

Years ago when we were shooting with $15,000 worth of Blads and lights and all that, it was a more exclusive business.

Not so today. It runs the whole gamut now from phone weddings to full production crews. Personally, the whole thing has

gotten so out of hand with people expecting thousands of shots and low prices, I'm out. I do my commercial and editorial

work, a few small parties, my personal projects and some portraits. NO weddings any more.

<p>I see your point, Shawn, but good judgement comes from life experiences which is usually a consequence of lessons learned from failures. </p>

<p>A failed wedding photography experience is not the end of the world, and it's their prerogative if someone wants to try it without experience. </p>

<p>Rather than an emphatic NO, I'd rather share a laundry list of overwhelming details, what if's, cautions, and let them make their own judgement, at their own peril. </p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"Michael what bride and groom deserve to be the customer for someone's failure and hard lessons?"</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Shawn, no bride or groom deserves to be such customers, but someone hellbent on doing it will do it regardless, and the bride/groom shares equal responsibility in their due diligence to weed out potentially disastrous results.</p>

<p>Another consideration is that not every wedding is a high society affair demanding the best results. Plenty of events occur in rural areas where there are no expectations at all, and with a corresponding photographer's fee. </p>

We don't know anything about the circumstances of these jobs. A fair share are probably small or informal, very low

budget affairs where there is no money for a regular photog anyway. That still doesn't mean it's any less important, just

that the couple is making do with what they have available and are willing to take the chance. In that case, that is not our

problem or concern. That is between the b and g and the newbie.

<p>Nothing wrong with that. Especially with those that appear close to ready.<br>

but often i see advice like "go for it" and no mention of the dangers.</p>

<p>You ask a very good question, Shawn.</p>

<p>I think it is very important to appreciate each contribution as it applies at that particular time in the conversation.<br>

Very few of these types of questions are detailed and precise and they rarely contain anywhere near adequate information for a detailed answer.<br>

One approach is to engage to get more information – that sometimes works, however, it occurs to me, that it is more often the case that nearly responses to these types of questions: offer assistance and comment, based upon some assumptions.</p>

<p>Also, if one comment from a person with several years' of experience, raises a concern or a doubt and that concern is seemingly not heeded, addressed - or even questioned with an open view to initiate further conversation apropos some alternative or work-around by the OP . . . then, in my experience, it will achieve very little for a plethora "don't do it" comments, to follow.</p>

<p>Also, and this is just a guess based upon a broad understanding of general human nature, it would be rare for any Originating (new) Posters, to vigorously interrogate the bona fide and background of the Author of each comment.</p>

<p>WW</p>

It has also been a fairly regular circumstance that after the OP posts their turmoil, they never again return to the

conversation. So, as a result, there is no chance of getting better information as William alluded to.

<p>Well we can stomp around and shout dire warnings but that does nothing to address the fact that they are going to do it anyway. And then there is the very real possibility that we are talking to a real talent. We may be able to help them survive a few and come back to inspire us. If I had not run into a former Nazi party photographer with a great deal of talent and experience but most importantly the inclination to help a young GI learn how to take a passible picture I might never have had the joy photography has brought me over the years.</p>

<p>Then there is the Bride and Groom. Our advice helps them too. If our little tidbits help to get them some decent wedding pictures that is all for the good. </p>

<p>I have no problem calling BS on someone. I do it with equipment all of the time. People trying to buy a game make me want to hit them with a wet sock. There are far more photographers over gunned than under gunned for that reason. </p>

<p>But if someone asks me how to take a picture, and I think I know how, I will tell them every time. Every time. Why? Because every single shot I publish or take for enjoyment is a direct result of someone who was probably tired and wanted a beer, taking time to share their passion and expertise with me. Most of them probably wanted to say..."Photojournalist? You have about as much chance of doing that as you do of becoming an astronaut. You can't shoot the cover of a major news magazine or cover a major election cycle without decades of experience. Give it up." "Cover the society wedding of the year? You can't do that! Get someone who had done 100 of them to do it." </p>

<p>People took a chance on me and I need to pay it forward. That doesn't mean that we don't need to scare the bejesus out of them and warn them of pitfalls. Though my knowledge is limited to just a few areas, I think it is my responsibility to help the next generation of photographers to the extent I know how. It is no less than the last generation did for me.</p>

<p>And just for the record, even though I have been taking pictures for half a century, I learn some pretty good stuff from the advice that this forum gives to others. Just the other day something Sarah Fox said came to mind as I was shooting a wedding and I enjoyed the result. </p>

<p>On the whole, I'd suggest that those who wish to help others, continue to do so and those who feel that negative advice is best, continue to post the same.</p>

<p>Sounds almost like the definition of an internet forum, doesn't it?</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"On the whole, I'd suggest that those who wish to help others, continue to do so and those who feel that negative advice is best, continue to post the same."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's a reasonable notion, but it does come at a cost - the dwindling participation which will eventually spell the demise of that forum. </p>

<p>Nothing wrong with that. Especially with those that appear close to ready.<br />but often i see advice like "go for it" and no mention of the dangers.<br>

<br>

Good points, but I don't think I've ever seen a beginning wedding photo thread that didn't have warnings of pitfalls and the dangers. I haven't seen them all, but it seems there's always "reality" advice given.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>That's a reasonable notion, but it does come at a cost - the dwindling participation which will eventually spell the demise of that forum.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Very true. Still, everything has a life span and, when a forum no longer meets the needs of its members, it will wither and die. If the moderators wish, they could apply similar rules to those used for the "Beginners Questions" forum.</p>

<p>Good point, HP. </p>

<p>Perhaps it's best to have the same "gentle to beginners" rule across all forums, so long as posters identify themselves as such.</p>

<p>It'll be good for the site; at least it won't scare beginners away and nurture a more friendly environment for everyone. <br>

</p>

<p>I would also ask for some minimal information. For example, in the most recent post, the OP neglected to mention until specifically asked what kind of equipment they were using. The $120 special at Walmart hadn't even entered my consideration as the equipment he was using... my fault, I should have asked in my initial post. Nor did I consider that the 'portfolio' the client loved consisted of some snaps of the kids. </p>

<p>I myself was fooled by the confidence that came across in the initial post. I assumed that the OP had a prerequisiste of at least some minimal experience, a decent portrait portfolio, and some basic equipment (a consumer DSLR, and at least a kit lens or two) reflecting those. That his 'portfolio' wouldn't even be considered nominally such by any of us didn't even cross my mind initially.</p>

<p>I have to admit that I would guess that the vast majority of people who consider this (at least and post) have a considerably greater level of experience, equipment, and caution than this individual makes both a consideration of a) the shooters overall capability, and b) the clients expectation (especially considering their budget) of critical importance before we bandy about the 'heck no! don't do it!' </p>

<p>Maybe the short answer is that such posts should be encouraged, and encouraged to be longer not shorter - with prolific descriptions of everything potentially relevant! The forum can support a lot of text - we should encourage the OPs to use it!</p>

<p>I agree with Mr. Chang</p>

<p>There has to be a level of uncertainty for a person to come here and ask for help. But that's it, they're asking for help not permission. The "I've been doing this for a half century" doesn't mean you're a good photographer, nor does it mean anyone should listen to you. This is a visual art. People can and do work with the equipment they have. Hell, photographers use to do wedding with Speed Graphics and TLR Rolleiflex.<br>

This thread suggest that a wedding deserves the best photographer available. Well who is that person? Most people getting married are not experts on great photography. They go with what they like or the price that fits their budget. So a beginner might be all they can afford. After all. it's more of a tradition that a photographer is needed than a requirement.</p>

<p>My issue with most of the posters on photo.net is they talk a big game, but show no images to support all the bravado. We love the great photographers because of their results or their approach to taking an image, not their dialogue. Photography is a visual art, not a verbal art. The, I've done, I've been, I've seen, argument doesn't work with today's youth. We are now in a, " communication from a distance" society, and I'm sure if most of us were face to face, we'd be a lot more civil towards one another, or at least fake it. Who needs a lecture from a stranger?</p>

"Who needs a lecture from a stranger?" Good point Charles, but you're lecturing us, and there doesn't seem to be a

single photo in your portfolio here, supposedly your top issue. What am I missing?

<p>Thanks Dave</p>

<p>I see your point. This was not a lecture, nor will you find any of my post giving advice on what people can or can't do, or what equipment is best. I addressed the OP, and commented on Mr. Chang"s post, which I agreed with. If you think my post was a lecture, then your response proves my point. Did you miss that?</p>

<p>As far as me posting my work. I would love to share my work with you. I just don't feel the need to do it on Photo.net. This is not a site that caters to commercial photographers... but I will give you a sample</p><div></div>

<p>A good advice cannot be an irresponsible one. There's a common theme in this forum which leads it to its current dwindling state in that people conjecture too much without providing meaningful answers.</p>

<p>If a person asks if he or she can shoot weddings with a $500 rebel they get two days ago, instead of giving a yes, no or maybe answer, a lot of the replies instead resort to personal attack without knowing much of the background of the poster.</p>

<p>This is a very subjective business which absolute right or wrong rarely if ever exist. I've been here for 3 years now but I think some of the posts do not answer the question raised but are aimed at bullying the person posting the question.</p>

Charles I enjoyed your images, thanks for sharing, of course you weren't obligated, but it was your talking point and I

found it curious. In answer to your question, yes I am missing some of this. But us bantering doesn't really serve the

purpose of the thread so I'll just move on with us being somewhat misunderstood with each other.

<p>Do we need a forum to tell newbies "don't do it"? One person with a rubber stamp message is all that is required.</p>

<p>IMO, the point of a forum like this is to share the wealth of knowledge from more experienced wedding photographers, or those less experienced that learned something the hard way. In other words, when I supportively answer an apparent "wet behind the ears" inquiry, it is for the benefit of the whole as well as the OP, who may or may not listen to any advice depending on their personality. Like other pros here, I also read responses to garner any new information or insights into my craft because you never stop learning and growing.</p>

<p>P.Net is a public forum, open to all levels of photographers. Other wedding sites are closed to the public and are subscription based. Some separate newbies from experienced pros with mentors helping the less experienced ... thus relieving the more seasoned shooters from frequent <em>"I'm about to shoot my first wedding, HELP!"</em> questions. Therefore, if we chose to participate on this forum, that is the way it is.</p>

<p>Personally, I've been shooting photographs for pay longer than many here have been alive. Some "experienced" advice offered to newbies is sage, while some I wince at, knowing it is ill advised or phrased in a less than supportive way ... however, all is offered with conviction, authority and vigor. To me that is a more difficult situation than the newbie's lack of general know-how.</p>

<p><strong>Let's cut to the chase ... the part no one wants to hear, and some may aggressively oppose:</strong></p>

<p>In my long career, I've seen a lot of change, the ebb and flow of photography as a business. Yet, in this age of digital technology and the information revolution, photography is experiencing a "Perfect Storm".</p>

<p>In general, the face of photography has changed. Major news outlets have fired their entire photo staff, and have opened feeds to the public to garner cell phone images as events happen. Commercial entities now have shutter-bug employees shooting catalogs in-house for their website. The major still studio system has all but collapsed ... and the general public no longer thinks of family photography, including events such as a wedding, as a heirloom for later enjoyment. We live in the age of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram ... here today, gone today mentality. Wedding photographers that flourished by selling prints are now struggling with that business model. Reinvention is the watchword for a professional's survival.</p>

<p>When we advise someone that they can't do something, that they are ill equipped to take on a wedding, it assumes that both they and the client are interested in the old model for wedding photography from the past. Many are not ... and that "many" is growing. Most clients can't tell an insightful "of the moment" shot that is a part of a well woven story-line from an isolated common snapshot ... and frankly, neither can many wedding photographers. </p>

<p>In growing numbers, people just want pics of their family and friends at their wedding posted on some web-site. They will gush about some badly exposed, poorly framed P&S shot from a friend posted on FB as much as a well seen, polished shot from their Pro. Often more so. Content trumps craftsmanship. </p>

<p>All to often, other than the so called formals and portraits, many clients do not see a great deal of difference between their "friend with a camera" and a Professional Wedding Photographer ... and convincing some of them otherwise is a tough sell, especially when they hear the price. Of course there are exceptions, however that makes for ferocious competition to win those who DO see a difference and are willing to pay for it. </p>

<p><strong>Side bar related story:</strong> I have an acquaintance who took up shooting children with a cheap camera. She still doesn't know much more than the basics of our craft ... to the point that she probably would not past muster on this site. Yet, she averages $11,000 a month with a very small over-head ... more of a testimony to her aggressive sales sense, being a mom herself, and related people skills than her photography abilities. </p>

<p>- Marc</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Charles, my name is Michael. Mr. Chang is my Dad. :-) </p>

<p>I'd love to see more of your work; care to share your website or online link to your photography? </p>

<p>On the subject of beginner wedding photographers, I took this picture 9 years ago at a tourist attraction which was representative of upscale wedding photography at the time. As Marc suggested, times have really changed, and even upscale equivalents these days will demand a whole new mindset, skill set, and gear. </p>

<p><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/2678559-lg.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="640" /></p>

<p>I will also link to the photo, not for purposes of self promotion, rather for the discussion of its title "I'd hate to be him":<br>

<a href="/photo/2678559">http://www.photo.net/photo/2678559</a></p>

<p>To all newcomers of wedding photography, I salute your courage and gumption to overcome adversity. </p>