Is it getting too impersonal?

<p>Hello all,<br>

I just recently did a little experiment by acting like the customer, and signing up on quoting sites for wedding photographers. And what I got back kind of bothers me. I was wondering if you'd feel the same.</p>

<p>I put in my information on places like Wedding Wire and Thumbtack. Fake date, name, all. My budget is at $2000.</p>

<p>Right away, the most common question I get asked by FAR is ... "How many hours of wedding coverage do you need?"<br>

For me, this has just always rubbed me the wrong way. So I shoot someones wedding, and go to Disneyland the rest of the day? <br>

I feel that when I book someone myself, for my own business, I am there acting like this wedding is THE priority of the day. At least I like to treat each of my clients like this. I try not to book weddings too close together.</p>

<p>Another thing I noticed was how many automatic, get down to prices, 50% retainer please, with a little :) at the end quotes I got. </p>

<p>Do you have similar feelings about this? I feel that we're in a profession that needs to be more personal and authentic than perhaps other ones? I know it's business as well, and mine really is picking up now ..... partly because I try to be more personal from beginning to neverending customer relationship.<br>

Thanks for reading,<br>

Rob</p>

<p>This a business first and personal distant second job. I see photography as no different than professions like legal counselling or doctoring. You need to know about your clients but I'm not in this business to make my clients my friends for life.</p>

<p>I don't agree with your goal of developing never-ending customer relationship as I'm in this business to make money and generate income. If developing relationship is my goal, I would rather be social worker or be a clergyman.</p>

<p>You cannot afford not to be a people's person doing this job but that doesn't mean getting more personal will get you more business. Some of my clients see me as nothing more than another help of the day like the chef. Am I to say they are wrong?</p>

<p>I think a lot of us try to run this business the way we wanted it to work for US and forget what the clients want.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"So I shoot someone's wedding, and go to Disneyland the rest of the day?"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Odd question, that. Rhetorical but also kind of snarky. I don't have the stamina to shoot two weddings in a single day, but some folks here do, and more power to them. </p>

<p>I don't understand what you think is wrong with asking how long the photographer will be needed. Seems to me a perfectly appropriate starting question, along with "How many guests?" and "What kind of ceremony and what kind of reception?" and several others. I've shot some weddings where I worked from the starting bell up to the closing buzzer, and they came in just over 3 hours. I've shot other weddings where I was there for six hours or more and when I left, the party was just getting started. I don't see anything wrong with getting an idea what sort of wedding is being planned: a modest family get together or a sorority-fraternity death-match.</p>

<p>I don't personally shoot by the hour, partly because I don't want to be looking at the clock. I do however put a time limit into my contracts: typically it's 5-6 hours. For me this has never been a problem.</p>

<p>And I agree with Green Photog: Of course you have to be "personal" — but if you're in business, then you're at the wedding because it's your job. The caterer puts on a smile when talking to the client, listens to the client's wishes, etc. So do I. I certainly get to know my client's families a little better than the caterer or the musicians, at least on a very temporary basis. I learn who Aunt Nelda is and why she matters to the bride. I follow the bride around, often with the assistance of a friend or cousin who tells me who's who. But my clients aren't trying to make friends with me and I'm not trying to make friends with them.</p>

<p>One bride did come to me and ask if I was having a great time. The champagne had been flowing freely, and she was in a happy mood. Even so, the question took me by surprise. For one thing, the truth was that I was just a few weeks out of the hospital after major surgery, so by the middle of the reception, where I really wanted to be was home in bed. But aside from that personal detail (which of course was never mentioned) I never think about having a good time. I'm there to work. </p>

<p>Now as it happens, I like the work very much. I'm happy shooting. But it's a private kind of happiness that I don't expect the bride or guests to understand or share. </p>

<p>Will</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Rob, consider this:</p>

<p>Many wedding photographers get a lot of inquiries that ask if they have such and such date open and what are your prices? Lots of clients mass e-mail photographers with this type of inquiry.</p>

<p>This will of course trigger a request for more details to better understand the client's expectations.</p>

<p>Where is the wedding? Where is the reception? How big of a wedding is it? How many hours are estimated? What deliverables are expected? Do you want an engagement session? And so on …</p>

<p>I had one such inquiry recently. <em>"Date open? How much?" </em>So, I asked for details.<br /> <br /> Turns out … it is a wedding with 400 guests; they want 12 hours of coverage; looking for photography in multiple locations including getting ready shots of the Bride/Bridesmaids and Groom/Groomsmen in different locations at the same time; inside locations and timing indicate off-camera strobe lighting will be mandatory; and deliverables include release of images for printing by them, three custom designed albums; a 30"X 40" canvas wrap; plus an engagement session.</p>

<p>Now if a client had listed all those requirements on Wedding Wire or whatever, and said their budget was $2,000 … I would not have even responded because in no way could I deliver. It would have been a waste of their time and mine.</p>

<p>Speaking of wasting a photographer's time … placing a fake inquiry on a site for your own curiosity should be what really bothers you, not their response.</p>

<p>- Marc</p>

<p> </p>

Expecting warm, personalized responses from contacts automatically generated by a website might be a bit unrealistic. You've minimized the time and effort spent trying to find a photographer; those photographers are essentially doing the same.

<p>"Mission Statement" .... Jerry Maguire </p>

<p>First off Rob - Shame on you. While some of those sites are free or unlimited leads for the pro. Many such as Thumbtack charge the pro a fee for the privilege to bid on your "fake" wedding. For a $2,000 wedding on Thumbtack any Pro who's bid you opened was charged $15.00 to 20.00 each - just so you could post a question on this forum... NICE. </p>

<p>Second - Yeah - I ask how many hours a wedding is or how many hours of coverage the couple wants - not because I want to go to Disneyland or Mall of America the rest of the day with my family, but because I NEED TO KNOW TO PRICE A QUOTE. </p>

<p>I price my quotes based on the number of hours of coverage. If the couple want 3 hours for $600 vs 8 hours for $600 - that determines if I bid on that wedding or leave it to some newbie who doesn't understand that 8 hours of shooting for $600.00 really means they are losing money on the deal. </p>

<p>Granted if the budget is $2,000 or up I expect to be there 8 - 10 hours with the possibility of a 2nd shooter being asked for. But again - that's why we ask the questions: To find out what the customer wants, budgets for and expects. </p>

<p>Thirdly - I tend to ask a lot of Personal Questions on Thumbtack - since it is a way to gauge whether or not the client is serious or kicking the tires - and also whether or not they have a clue as to the real cost of a service. <br /></p>

<p>Yes - these lead services are highly impersonal - but that is what the consumer wants. If the consumer stopped using them, we wouldn't be on them. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>"the most common question I get asked by FAR is ... "How many hours of wedding coverage do you need?"</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Its a highly relevant question as to whether they will be able to do the job and also useful to know for other issues. Would it be a better use of time for both parties to back and forth on other details only to find out later that the job was not going to be feasible in the first place? Wouldn't THAT be something that would "rub people the wrong way'?</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"How many hours of wedding coverage do you need?"</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>It's a forward and likely necessary question, but it seems to me a little too direct. <br>

<br>

Rather than ask - and likely the client won't know anyway - perhaps it's better to outline the various service gradations one offers with a corresponding price, then describe the benefits of each "package" to allow the client to make an informed value judgment. <br>

<br>

Being up-sold happens to all of us when purchasing the likes of cars or services - you might have budgeted $5k for a new roof, but the roofer explains that an $8k job will result in more durable materials and a longer warranty that just might reset your reference and go for the higher grade. <br>

</p>

<p>Well, I think you're looking on the wrong sites if you want personal. A client who is putting out a random call for wedding photography quotes is already impersonal. So you get like with like. If you had personally googled and found a few wedding photogs whose work looked pretty good, I bet you'd get more personal responses. <br /><br />As for the hours of wedding coverage question, I dont really find this impersonal or rude. Do I ask this? No, because I just assume most people want 8 hrs coverage (and is included in all my wedding packages) and if they want a couple hours of coverage, most clients are going to say so in their initial inquiry. But never in a million years would I assume it meant my wedding photographer was planning on going on vacation for the rest of the day--how can they give me an accurate quote if they dont know? Some photographers may only get out of bed in the morning for no less than $2000 and no more than 3 hours wedding coverage. Others may cover an entire wedding day for $2000.</p>

<p>I'm with you on the coverage issue. There is nothing more disgusting then watching a Photographer extort another couple hundred dollars out of a couple because they're running behind schedule at end of night. It's in everyone's best interest to produce the best possible work on any given wedding day. Don't shortchange yourself or your clients because you want to sleep. Or because you booked too many to close to ether.</p>

<p>Your greatest sales and marketing efforts will always revolve around the images you produce. You can determine when you begin and when you end given the constraints of that particular day's schedule - but you better make damn sure you've given yourself the greatest opportunity to succeed. Do this enough and you can easily raise your prices to accommodate.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Dave - </p>

<p>I'm puzzled by that statement - If you contract with a DJ for 8 hours - do you expect him or her to stay for 10 because you're behind? Or because you're having a good time? And do you expect them to do the extra time for nothing? </p>

<p>I put a time limit in all my contacts - for the simple reason I know what my time is worth. I'm not about to "give away" time at a wedding - especially if the couple is running late. </p>

<p>I've seen everything and heard every excuse in the book for running late at a wedding from the "ring bearer / flower girl had a meltdown" to "we were having a good time at the bar" to "the limo got lost on the way here". And I've seen them start and end on time too. It's in my contract - if the agreed upon time comes and they're not done with what they want photographed - It's $200 per hour extra. If they decide they don't want to pay that's fine. It's not "extortion" - it's covering myself and knowing what my time and effort are worth.</p>

<p>As a side note - I've only ever walked out on a client one time - he didn't want to pay and was in no hurry to get things moving - preferring instead to argue with the catering company over the extra 30 people who showed up. (And fyi - i had already stayed an hour and a half beyond agreed upon time) And I've never had to invoke the $200 per hour overage charge. Most couples know how many hours they booked a photographer for and are at least TRYING to get things moving along - and I give them credit for that. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>There is nothing more disgusting then watching a Photographer extort another couple hundred dollars out of a couple because they're running behind schedule at end of night.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Apparently, forcing someone to work extra hours, for free, contrary to their agreement, with no fault of the working person just to be able complete the task scheduled earlier is perfectly fine. With that in mind, why not encourage all couples to do this. After all, its "disgusting" for a photographer to be compensated for this kind of thing. How dare they be compensated for having to do extra work and effort that was never agreed to. <br /><br />Why stop at photographers? Lets apply this standard to every service provide In every industry. All service providers, from this time forward, should work extra hours for free. Until whenever the customer gets around to letting the provider do their job. Sweet idea. I'm sure this will be universally accepted by all the service workers across the land. I'm sure they will agree since it will be "disgusting" to do otherwise. <br /><br /><br /><br /></p>

<p>Well, we can see who are the seasoned pros here and who are the inexperienced. Wedding photography is not a salary business and that is why we need to charge for our time and make the money when we work. In todays saturated market we need to know the hours so we can put a competitive price together that meets the needs of the client. A couple may be on a tight budget so I try to work with them by finding out how many hours. I may charge $400 less from my standard price if they say the wedding is only 5hrs instead of 8 but if the party starts to go beyond the 5hrs then I have to charge the overtime. The same goes for the standard contract 8hrs, if the party goes beyond 8hrs I charge OT.</p>

<p>Contrary to popular belief your time is not worth money. Your body of work / service and experience is. "Covering" yourself at 10pm the day of a wedding because the couple has yet to have their first dance is so diminishing to a individual's value its not even funny. This ideology breeds mediocrity. Set your prices accordingly LONG before you find yourself in this situation. If a couple isn't willing/able to meet your financial requirements you walk. You don't provide them with cheaper options in a desperate attempt to accommodate. Then relying on forces outside of your control to recoup your investment. </p>

<p>Sweat equity will never ceases to exist in your business. It only gets more valuable. </p>

 

<p>Dave be so kind as to direct us to your professional wedding photography website.</p>

<p>Ha ha .... I like the photographers that say "Shame on you" .... when I should be saying the same thing about the work that they give to people. Not in the same league, move on.</p>

<p>And I especially love how they prove the attitude and mindset that I am exactly talking about. Thank you for that as well.</p>

<p>And I like how almost every answer on the "how many hours issue".... photographers set up a straw man and say "well you just wanna know where you are" .... or "you don't wanna be there for 12 hours Rob, DUH".</p>

<p>I'm sure they wouldn't want even just ONE past client to read their comments.</p>

<p>Carry on.</p>

<p>Rob</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Well, we can see who are the seasoned pros here and who are the inexperienced.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Michael you appear to want to embrace excuses - not solutions. Regardless of how much time you've spent at your craft or what industry you perform in - this is without a doubt the biggest indicator of so-called "professionalism". </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Wedding photography is not a salary business and that is why we need to charge for our time and make the money when we work.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Wedding Photography not a salaried industry? This is news to me. I draw a salary. I know 2 years out how much money I will make. If I ever felt threatened that I was going to enter into a season not knowing exactly how much I was going to clear - I'd be looking for something else to do. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>In todays saturated market we need to know the hours so we can put a competitive price together that meets the needs of the client.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>More excuses. NYC is arguably the biggest and most affluent wedding market in the world. What really boggles my mind is why someone who's life depends on $400.00 would be willing to A) loose any potential referrals due to strong arming a client at the most inappropriate time because they were afraid to factor the additional cost into their original price. And B) is willing to sacrifice the quality of work they produce because it doesn't conveniently fit into their own personal schedule. Whats truly upsetting is that you appear to be not only happy with this complacency - but your willing to reinforce your beliefs on others. I wouldn't wish that existence on my worst enemy.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>mmmm, the irony is that this whole question the above bickering refers to can be prevented by knowing ahead of time what the clients needs and/or what the scope of demand is going to be ahead of time. </p>

<p>Asking questions like "How many hours of coverage are you likely to need?" is an excellent way to pre-determine the client's needs (though obviously not the only question), and is <em>critical</em> to providing an accurate cost (and preventing the embarrasing: "Um, it's time for me to go, but you haven't danced yet, or cut the cake....my hourly out-of-contract shooting rate is $325/hr") </p>

<p>The premise of the OP is a little silly IMO, since prequalifying questions are the single best way to serve your client effectively, and set their expectation properly. The fact that he apparently expected personal, detailed, responses to a<em> form submission</em> makes me snicker a bit. I mean, it's a bit hypocritical, maybe if he'd taken the time to email these photogs or (gawd forbid) call them, they would be able to provide more 'personalized' responses... </p>

<p>I'd throw that same challenge out to Rob as well - since the link to his site is down. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Telling a client that they can pay less for less shooting hours. Is akin to a waiter telling you that if you don't finish all of your meal it will be discounted. How would you feel about the integrity of a restaurant that practises in this manner? </p>

<p>Charging an hourly rate puts a ceiling on how much you can make. But most importantly it actually gives you the incentive to work LESS efficiently. Since your being paid not for the OUTCOME but rather for your time. Which in this industry is worthless. And I mean absolutely worthless. </p>

<p>Ask yourself what the difference between a $500.00 Craigslister and a $15,000/day BOSS is - if you come up with anything other than the QUALITY of WORK they produce I suggest you start being proactive and dig a grave for your business, because its inevitable you are going to wither away and die like so many have before you. If you are unwilling to do whatever it takes to achieve the best possible results (and then some) you will never evolve into a better shooter. You will never increase your quality of life. You will DESPERATELY hold on to the status quo - until someone takes it upon themselves to squash you like a bug, or worse you become completely irrelevant. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Obviously Dave you use and preach the business model that changes photography from a service to a commodity - such as a car, meal or suit.</p>

<p>I'm done with this thread.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Well, Rob, as a fellow San Francisco wedding photographer and user of Thumbtack, I don't know if I wasted $15 on your fake lead or not. But this type of shenanigan's makes me upset. It is a very childish thing to do and somewhat akin to clicking on a competitor's Google ads just to run up their budget.</p>

<p>Well all art is a commodity David. </p>

<p>Charging an hourly rate that actually punishes your business model has nothing to do with that. If you get twice as effective at doing your job - you'll need to book twice as much work to do make the same amount of money. </p>

<p>Enjoy the race to the bottom!</p>

<p>Dave Thomas, do you shoot small weddings? Weddings that only last 2-3 hours?<br>

If so do you charge them the same amount as a wedding that you shoot that you are shooting for 8-10 hours?</p>