Info about Kodak C-41 chemicals?

I've been using the Tetenal C-41 kit for some time now but I find it expires so quickly I'm looking into

other brands -- namely Kodak. I also want to try other brands to see if I see a quality difference. With

Tetenal I got mediocre results, from what I could tell.

<br><br>

So I have some questions about Kodaks C-41 system that I'm hoping people here could help me with.

<br><br>

(BTW if any of these questions sound dumb it's because I'm used to black and white processing, so

many of these chemicals I never really got a full grasp of. Also, the definitions / explanations I found

searching google never really helped me.)

<br><br>

First of all, what is Kodak C41 ____/Replenisher? I see some items have /Replenisher afterwards and

some don't. What is the purpose of a replenisher? I would assume it's to "replenish" but I'm not sure

exactly how this works -- or what it does to the chemical itself, when to use it etc.

<br><br>

I know that the C-41 process involves a developer, bleach, fixer, and stabilizer, but Kodak has so many

different names for one thing, and then numbers afterwards (such as Bleach III) as much as I searched

their website and charts I just don't understand why there is a bleach III, the difference between RA,

Flexicolor, RA2, AR etc.

<br><br>

I tried searching Adorama's website and put together some chemicals that I <i>think</i> are the ones

I want; could someone here look them over and tell me if they are the right chemicals? I don't want to

purchase some developer that doesn't go with the bleach for example.

<br><br>

Here is what I have:

<br><br>

Developer: <a href="http://www.adorama.com/KKFCDRL10L.html?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%

20developer&item_no=1">http://www.adorama.com/KKFCDRL10L.html?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%

20developer&item_no=1</a>

<br><br>

Bleach: <a href="http://www.adorama.com/KKFCBSG.html?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%

20bleach&item_no=1?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%20bleach&item_no=1">http://www.adorama.com/

KKFCBSG.html?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%20bleach&item_no=1?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%

20bleach&item_no=1</a>

<br><br>

Fixer: <a href="http://www.adorama.com/KKFCRAFR10L.html?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%

20fixer&item_no=1">http://www.adorama.com/KKFCRAFR10L.html?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%

20fixer&item_no=1</a>

<br><br>

Stabilizer: <a href="http://www.adorama.com/KKFCSRG.html?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%

20stabilizer&item_no=1">http://www.adorama.com/KKFCSRG.html?searchinfo=kodak%20c-41%

20stabilizer&item_no=1</a>

<br><br>

I also heard something about the life span of liquid chemicals verses mixed chemicals (that being,

mixed chemicals expire more quickly? and that liquid chemicals can be frozen to extend it's life?).

<br><br>

Thank you for any and all replies.

Your best bet would be to talk with a Kodak rep. However, in a previous life when I was engaged in using C-41, the replenisher was simply fresh developer added by a formula calculated to replace the exhausted components.

You're looking for way more than this forum can possibly answer. Try a Kodak publication. I'm not sure if the Kodak 'Z' books are still printed, but there should be lots on the used market. Z-131 is Flexicolor, start there for a search. BTW, I doubt a Kodak TSR would

talk to you. It's been so long since I saw one, I'm not sure they still exist. Kodak no longer makes their own chemistry, it's now made by Champion using Kodak specs.

 

Briefly, all big processors add chemistry for a certain amount of square inches of film running through them. Developer is 'aged' with a 'starter' before it can be used. Then, there are specific formulations for 'RT' or roller transport machines, 'LR' for low replenishment machines and the list goes on. Kodak always loved to confuse everyone, even the pros.

 

The bottom line is that C-41 can rarely be done by hobbyists in 'one shot' nearly as well as a large processor that is maintained properly. This is not to say that you can't try, but I suspect your problem with poor development is your fault, not the mfg. There are a growing number of cheap labs running their C-41 'out of control'. Simply keep to good, reputable labs and you shouldn't have a problem.

I used to run a c-41 machine and belive me, it was one happy day when we yanked the plug and went fully digital. Keeping C-41 chemistry running 'in plots' is close to a voodoo science. We still run all prints through RA-4 paper process and it is a fraction of the risk and complexity of C-41. The old addage is that if you 'screw-up' the paper process, you simply run another print, if you 'screw-up' film, you lose a customer.

 

Even seasoned pros like me can have problems. Last year, we sent 3 cubetainers of Dev. B back to the mfg. because it was defective. After a few verbal fights with QC dept, they admitted I was right and yanked it from their warehouse. So, how can a guy running a few rolls have a chance?

 

Doug

Kodak C-41 developer, bleach, fixer and stablizer (or final rinse) all have replenishers. Without the word replenisher they can be used immediately without adding anything. But replenisher are used to replenish exhausted working chemicals.

 

For example, C-41 developer replenisher is intended for replenishing exhausted developer. You just add the developer replanisher to the exhausted developer according to a data sheet provided from Kodak. The developer will be good again after replenishing.

 

You can add developer replenisher to developer starter to make fresh working developer too. This is usualy how a fresh batch of developer is started with. The developer is then replenished all the time to keep it alive for a long time. Developer is not supposed to be used as a developer alone. But I have heard that you can do it. I have not tried it. I have no idea what the consequence it may be.

 

I believe bleach and fixer replenishers can be used as bleach and fixer. You can add them to the exhausted bleach and fixer too. Same to the stablizer and final rinse. Kodak final rinse is used for some latest Kodak professional films only, such as Kodak Portra line of films. All other or older films should use stablizer.

 

Kodak C-41 chemicals are the best in the market. Unless they become unavailable in my town I will not consider any other brands. The reason is simple. They are good. If anything goes wrong it is the process that is wrong.

<i>The bottom line is that C-41 can rarely be done by hobbyists in 'one shot'

nearly as well as a large processor that is maintained properly. This is not to

say that you can't try, but I suspect your problem with poor development is

your fault, not the mfg. There are a growing number of cheap labs running

their C-41 'out of control'. Simply keep to good, reputable labs and you

shouldn't have a problem.</i>

<br><br>

People keep saying that but none of the prices I have seen around here have been cheap

and quite frankly the time is not worth it.

<br><br>

I suppose I could be doing something wrong, but I would still like to use another brand to

see if there is any difference. It's all about what I would prefer. I hear Kodak is the best and

I want to see how good it really is. My problem, also, might be that I scan my color

negatives into my scanner, and according to a previous post, depending on the scanner,

you may not get the best results. I know that that has nothing to do with the negatives but

I might as well throw that out there. Either way, I'm still curious to see the difference

between Kodak and Tetenal.

<br><br>

I've also heard from others who do it at home and it doesn't seem to be that hard of a

thing -- which is why I want to know about it and delve deeper into it. Nothing beats the

amount of time I can save by doing it myself, so in that sense, doing it myself is 100%

worth it to me. Also, I like to be in control of everything and trusting my photos to

someone else isn't really my ideal. I also love <i>knowing</i> how to do it.

<br><br>

<i>Even seasoned pros like me can have problems. Last year, we sent 3 cubetainers

of Dev. B back to the mfg. because it was defective. After a few verbal fights

with QC dept, they admitted I was right and yanked it from their warehouse. So,

how can a guy running a few rolls have a chance?</i>

<br><br>

I appreciate your input but I've been developing for quite some time and I have yet to have

any problem like <i>that</i>. A lot of people on here seem to do it themselves as well

and don't seem to have that problem. I may only be doing 5-6 rolls at a time every few

weeks/months, but I don't think what I want to do is that unreasonable. I guess we'll see.

<br><br>

Dave Cheng:

Thank you for that explanation. I thought that's what replenisher was but I wasn't sure.

<br><br>

<i>Kodak C-41 chemicals are the best in the market. Unless they become unavailable

in my town I will not consider any other brands. The reason is simple. They are

good. If anything goes wrong it is the process that is wrong. </i>

<br><br>

That's what I've heard which I why I want to try them out -- even if it's only once. I'm

curious and I have a thirst for knowledge. :)

<br><br>

Where do you get your color chemicals and what do you buy when you want to develop?

What I mean is, what are the names of the Kodak developer, fixer, bleach etc.?

Doug Axford wrote:

<br><br>

<i>"The bottom line is that C-41 can rarely be done by hobbyists in 'one shot' nearly as well as a large processor that is maintained properly. This is not to say that you can't try, but I suspect your problem with poor development is your fault, not the mfg. There are a growing number of cheap labs running their C-41 'out of control'."</i>

<br><br>

...And that is pure bullsh*t: In fact, running C-41 is actually easier than B&W, because all you have to do is hit the time & temp target for the color developer; while the bleach and fixer steps are simply terminal process (process to completion) steps.

<br><br>

[by the way, only the first chemical step and first wash step (if a stop bath is not used) are critical: The remainder of those steps, too, are terminal process steps.]

<br><br>

Anyway, go to my <a href = "http://users.snip.net/~joe/default.htm" target = "_blank">Home Page</a>, and scroll down to the Kodak Z-131 C-41 process manual (which I put into a single PDF binder).

<br><br>

I'm in the process of creating and editing the <a href = "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replenishment" target = "_blank">Wikipedia page on replenishment</a>, which will be helpful to you as well.

<br><br>

Although it's late, the short answer for C-41 is that the color developer is about $33 for 5 gallons, the fixer is also $33 for 25 gallons, meaning both can be used single shot. Bleach, on the other hand, is expensive; and not only can be replenished, it can be regenerated.

<br><br>

More tomorrow...

<strong>This side note deals with the E-6 (slide film) process:</strong><br>

 

<i>[by the way, only the first chemical step and first wash step (if a stop bath is not used) are critical: The remainder of those steps, too, are terminal process steps.] </i>

The simple answer is this: , Kodak C-41 fix and replenisher, and Kodak C-41 final rinse

and replenisher are used at different dilutions to make either the working solution or the

replenisher that is used in large tank or machine processing where the chemistry is almost

never changed out, rather "replenisher" is added for each sq. ft. of film processed to keep

the chemistry good.

 

Kodak C-41 developer replenisher is used to make C-41 developer with the addition of

developer starter (sold separately). It is used without developer starter to make

replenisher.

 

Kodak C-41 Bleach replenisher is also used with C-41 bleach starter to make C-41 bleach.

Again the starter is sold separately.

 

It used to be that Kodak sold C-41 developer (not replenisher) that when diluted with

water was ready to use. Low demand caused them to discontinue this, and now you have

to MAKE developer from replenisher and starter.

 

Since the developer replenisher and bleach replenisher are multi-part chemicals, it is

difficult to make a partial batch from the concentrates, but it can be done. You need

accurate graduates, you need to measure the full volume of each chemical part, note this

on a notepad, pour the concentrates back into their bottles, then on your notepad divide

by the quantity you want to make. If you have a kit to make 5 gallons, and you want to

make 1 gallon, you would divide by 5. If you want to make 1/2 gallon you would divide by

10, etc.

 

McCluney Photo

Dave, "...And that is pure bullsh*t: In fact, running C-41 is actually easier than B&W" --- you are simply wrong and not fooling anyone who has done it, just misguiding the innocent. I've seen B&W film developed with water from a dirty harbor, no other chemistry - gee, can you do that with color?

 

Link to Kodak's Z-131: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/Zmanuals/z131.shtml

 

Gene's answer was pretty accurate, except that Kodak uses Dev Starter, not because of low demand on the 'water' system (although they may have said that) but because it was not an accurate enough system to get 'in control' fast.

 

The reality on C-41 is that unless you are running control strips, you may be actually doing a bad job of processing without even knowing it.

 

Doug

Gwendolyn,

 

What you want, at least to start out with, is the Kodak Flexicolor 1 gallon kit: It contains the "pre-started" components, which will get your process kicked off. See:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=27618&is=USA&addedTroughType=search

 

Then, once you get your process rolling, you'll be buying the Kodak Flexicolor Developer Replenisher (191 9042) 5 gallon kit for $26.50 and running a replenished line.

 

Whether or not you replenish the color developer, you'll DEFINITELY want to replenish the most expensive (by far) solution: The bleach... Which is also the easiest to keep, since it actually LIKES oxygen. You can use an aquarium pump & bubbler stone in a 5 gallon bucket as your bleach tank!

I used to develop my C-41 negatives using Kodak HobbyPack at home in a bathroom sink. My equipment were no more than $50 worth. It wasn't more difficult than imagining how to do it. Once you put your feet in water you will learn how to swim and you will say gee it isn't hard.

 

I also did E-6 the same way and got my 6x6 slides developed beautifully. In my opinion Kodak should reintroduce its Hobbypacks (both C-41 and E-6). These will be life savers for films. I gave up home processing of my own films when those Hobbypacks were discontinued. I stopped my photography activities all together for a long time until film scanners came out. After getting a low end film scanner I revisited film processing and found it was still the same as before. I had all my photography activity back and have since bought a JOBO to automate to some extend to process my own films at home. I have also bought a Minolta MF scanner. I have filled up half of my freezer with films. I have found a channel to get Kodak chemicals.

 

In every large city there should be a photographic store that carries Kodak chemicals. I initially got all my chemicals from one in my town (SFO Bay Area). I now use professional chemicals at a cheaper, but larger quantity, price from a minilab supplier.

 

I really want to ask Kodak why they discontinued HobbyPacks. They really should reintroduce them back to the market. Many beginers will have a chance to learn and use films again, instead of having no choice but digital.

OK, you asked about various versions of the C41, so I'll try to `splain:

 

C41-B is the classic Flexicolor process, and the one that most hobbyists here on Photo.Net use.

 

C41-AR is actually C41-B, with the replenisher chemicals "tuned" a bit better for the squirt pumps used in film processors for "on-the-fly" replenishment. You can directly substitute *mixed* AR chemistry with standard chemistry in your working tanks, with the same replenisher volume.

 

C41-LORR is also actually C41-B; but with the replenisher more concentrated for "low replenishment rate" (hence the LORR designation). This is used to reduce the overflow effluent when replenishing; and is generally used in high volume machines. Because the LORR chemicals are concentrated by a factor of two, the price is about double per gallon.

 

Notice that both C41-AR and C41-LORR chemistry all work and intermix in the C41-B process: You can use this to your advantage when excess (surplus) chemistry turns up at a discount!

 

----------------------

 

C41-RA (rapid access) chemistry is a very fast process used in minilabs, where speed and throughput is concerned -- Think the Fuji Frontier running two shifts in your local Wal-Mart.

 

The C41-RA developer stage is *identical* to the C41-B bath: This is where the developing and color formation takes place, and is not really subject to tweaking, i.e. 3:15 @ 100F.

 

Where the "rapid access" comes in is that the bleach and fixer are much more concentrated, and in some cases run at a higher temperature (about 110F, IIRC). But, instead of 6:30 for the bleach, it works in the 45 to 60 second range; while the fixer works in 90 seconds instead of the typical 6:30.

 

C41-RA fixer is actually quite nice, and can be used for color reversal (E6) slide film and even B&W processing.

 

But, there's a price to pay for the C41-RA bleach and fixer: Price! So, if you buy a minilab for $10 on eBay, watch out for those chemistry costs!

 

C41-SM is another minilab process used in, I *think*, a few Noritsu processors. Most likely the developer is C41-B; and the "tail end" *terminal process* bleach & fix steps will work at the 6:30 @ 100F time & temps.

 

Hope this helps!

Dan

Looks like Dave and I were typing at the same time! :)

Dan Schwartz has his facts all correct here. Trust what he is saying. C41 is easy to do and can give very satisfactory results. I have been doing C41 since before it was released to the public and have been making my own prints long before that with C22 process and all of the color paper processes.

 

It just takes time and effort to learn.

 

PS. Don't used muddy water from a harbor if you want good results with anything... Cooking, photography, car washing etc.

 

Ron Mowrey

These are the ones I use

 

http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?addtocart=KKFCFR5G&src=itemlist

 

I mix one quart of each at a time, and have done up to 10 rolls per quart with no degradation of results. I've kept the mixed chemicals up to a month without any problems. I've kept unused concentrates up to 6 months.

Disregard the above link - it doesn't work. search Adorama for these SKU's.

Developer = KKFCCDG

Bleach - KKFCCBG

Fixer - KKFCFR5G

Stabilizer - KKFCSRG

Doug, you don't have to send readers to the Kodak website for Z-131: I assembled all the chapters into a PDF binder, which has been available on my Home Page for over two years:

http://users.snip.net/~joe/default.htm

...and scroll down to the bottom.

 

Ron, thanks for the words of praise: When it comes from a someone who holds patents while working at Kodak on color photo material, I take it as the highest of compliments!

<i>"you are simply wrong and not fooling anyone who has done it, just misguiding the

innocent. I've seen B&W film developed with water from a dirty harbor, no other chemistry

- gee, can you do that with color?"</i>

<br><br>

There's no doubt that it doesn't get any easier than B&W (I've experienced this time and

time again) but I do agree with him -- or I think I do -- that C-41 is not as big of a deal as

some people make it out to be. That's something I have always found odd: some people

say "don't even try it's too hard and impractical" but others -- who do it at home

themselves all the time -- say that it's definitely doable. I know that I do indeed want to

try it because, like I said, the amount of time I save is worth everything else (my opinion

would be different if it costs $100s of dollars to buy the chemicals, but from what I see

you can easily spend about $50 bucks for chemicals which is about what I spend for my

B&W chemicals -- even though my B&W last far longer).

<br><br>

That's why my question here strictly has to do with understanding the chemicals

themselves. I've already developed colored negatives and don't find it too difficult, so as

much as I appreciate the input, I'm not looking for "don't even try it" comments. I don't

know any lab around here that can develop good negatives the same day I drop them off,

that is also reasonably priced. I may be missing them, but I'm always on the look out and

have yet to come across one.

<br><br>

Thank you so much Dan for explaining all of that so clearly. That's a great list that I'll be

keeping for reference. That's pretty much exactly what I wanted, actually!

<br><br>

And thank you to everyone else who replied. I appreciate all the opinions, advice, tips, and

general information.

Is it possible that those that try to advise..."too hard, don't attempt" are remembering the

older processes that came before C-41 and E-6? They were harder and more prone to

failure until you learned the process.

 

McCluney Photo

Gwendolyn, keep in mind that the C41 family is a very "forgiving" process, in that, unlike E6 where "develop the film and that's it" is the mantra, remember that color negs are DESIGNED to be optically printed; so any color shifts caused by an out-of-control color developer are easily compensated for in the enlarger.

 

[Of course, since the bleach and fix are terminal (process until complete) baths, I'm not including problems, such as silver retention, caused by the tail end: In any case, even if the C41 bleach and/or fix steps screw up, simply rebleach and refix -- No big shake, as Pee Wee Herman would say.]

 

Hope this helps!

 

Dan

You can easily make your own stabilizer to use in the final rinse (after the final wash after fixing) by diluting some formalin (sold at 37% concentration) down to about 1/10th of a percent, add in Photo-Flo to act as the surfactant, and this will work quite well for both C41 and E6. [by the way, this works out to one teaspoon (5 mL) of 38% formalin) for a 5 gallon bucket.]

 

[in fact, E6 stabilizer is no more than glorified Photo-flo, now that the dye preservation is buried down in the pre-bleach step... To eliminate the formaldehyde in the final rinse for environmental reasons.]

Gwendolyn,

 

Don't forget that when you shoot color neg film, you'll typically overexpose 1/3rd stop, i.e. set the ISO dial at 320 for 400 box speed, in order to compensate for any manufacturing tolerances down in the toe of the curve.

 

When you develop your own C41, you can shoot at box speed and still "clean up" the toe with a 1/3rd stop push, i.e. 3:30 instead of 3:15 at 100F [or, run the developer at about 101.5F for the 3:15 time: This is how I once set a minilab processor that could not push or pull process film, to compensate for a Large Customer who perenially underexposed... And making the negs easier to print or scan for the rest...]

 

Another instance where you may want to push process color neg film is when you're caught short: Often this happens in ambient light shooting where you can't use a flash (think a musician playing onstage) or when the action is too fast (think night sports): That roll of 400 speed neg film can be shot at E.I. 1000 or 1250 and souped for an additional 90 seconds, saving the shoot. To push C41, you add 45 seconds per stop -- And be generous, hence the advice to push 400 speed neg film a full 2 stops when rated at 1000 to 1250.

 

 

----->>>> The moral of this post is that color neg film rapidly falls apart when underexposed.

 

 

Hope this helps!

 

Dan

Gwendolyn,

 

I noticed you're in Irvine Calif.: One minilab supplier in the area is Chang's Photo Supplies, Inc.

http://www.changsphoto.com

213-251-9580

 

 

Why you want a local supplier is that shipping will kill you, as both Kodak and Fuji Hunt have a $500 minimum for free shipping.

 

AND, shipping (HazMat) photo chemicals is a bitch, because UPS charges $20/box extra while FedEx charges $30/box... And neither carrier wants to do it. Most likely your local minilab supplier either uses their own delivery trucks, or uses a contract courier service for local customers. Worst case, you can drive there and pick up what you want.

 

Also, keep in mind that your local minilab suppliers only keep the fastest moving chemistry; but they receive truckload shipments every week from E-K & F-H; so whatever you need (including E-6 & B&W), they can get in a few days when their next order arrives.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Dan

Dan;

 

Please be careful about the statement about stabilzer being a glorified photo flo. Actually, the new final rinse for both E6 and C41 contains an anti fungal agent/bacteriostat stabizing agent that is proprietary to Kodak.

 

Color film products can be subjet to growth of 'bugs' during keeping, due to lack of silver. Silver in B&W products can inhibit 'bug' growth, but color cannot be protected by silver, so a final rinse helps.

 

Otherwise, as said above, you are doing a fine job.

 

Ron Mowrey

Ron,

 

shouldn't the 60 second soak in a formaldehyde (+ Photo-Flo) solution kill off all the nasty stuff?

 

In any case, I need to get my hands on a sample of Miconazole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miconazole

which I know Fuji-Hunt uses in their washless C41-RA stabilizer.