I'm deeply shocked...

Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by lutz, Sep 11, 2001.

  1. Friends,

    <p>

    I'm deeply shocked by what the news are reporting on terroristic acts against the United States. This is not a specific Leica matter, I know, but since I feel very close to many of you US fellow photographers I would like to share your concern here...
     
  2. This is crazy. My heart sinks as I watch the news. I may be far far
    away in Singapore, but I pray that God bless the nation of
    America with his protection, peace and blessings.
     
  3. Friends:

    <p>

    Most wholehearted condolence to all of us who had been touched by
    this tremendous tragedy.
    Certainly Joel is accurately expressing what we feel at the moment.
    I add up myself to his praying.

    <p>

    -Iván
     
  4. If Hollywood had produced that footage of that airliner crashing into
    the World Trade Center, we would have laughed at how unbelievable it
    looked... and yet it was real. This has to be the saddest day for so
    many people. There will be very few people in the U.S. and the world
    that remain unaffected by this day.

    <p>

    To the New York area forum participants, please let us know you are
    alright.

    <p>

    God Bless!
     
  5. I´m so concern about what is happening in our world now, god bless us
    all. A black day in the history of our civilization.
     
  6. Very thoughtful words posted here. How impossible it is to live life
    normally today and undoubtedly for a long time to come.
     
  7. Unbelievable. I am working because there is nothing else to do and I
    can't go home. A terrible day for the whole World too, not excluding
    those who planned and organize such an attack. Thanks for the posting
    Lutz.
     
  8. I remember have read here about the Budas destroied few months ago,
    now is a contemporary icono of the world economy, it reminds me of
    Pearl Harbord, what´s next?, what represent us, and what can be the
    cost of our cultural diferences?, there is a lot to think about, Can
    you imagine a way to picture it?
     
  9. Thank you all outside of the US for your thoughts. Our mainland was
    attacked once before- in the War of 1812 with the British. We are now
    so vulnerable.

    <p>

    It's hard to imagine what good will come out of this at the moment.
    One can only hope.
     
  10. R. Watson

    <p>

    If it turns out to bin Laden and his cronies (assisted
    by the Taliban), then your protest was particularly prescient. F15s
    flying over Manhattan. Can you believe it? It is like a nightmare, but
    it is real.
     
  11. Thanks for the very kind and thoughtful words from those of you
    outside the United States.

    <p>

    The world is full of so many great people. This forum is my personal
    door to the rest of the countries on earth. It is heartwarming to
    hear of the concerns of those for us with such heavy hearts.

    <p>

    Fear not for the people of the USA. We are a great people. We will
    endure this tragedy. The spirit of this country is indominable.

    <p>

    Special prayers for those in NYC, Washington D.C. and those on the
    airplanes involved in these attacks. May god bless their families.

    <p>

    David S Smith
     
  12. The whole thing seems like it should be a Hollywood "b" movie. Sadly
    though, it's all too real.

    <p>

    I find it even more bizarre to be saying things like "When the second
    plane hit........." The second plane?!?!? What the hell is up with
    that? There shouldn't have even been one plane. And a total of four
    planes were taken over and crashed? One terrorist attack on US soil
    would have been a major story for weeks.

    <p>

    It's all pretty messed up. I feel for those who have lost loved ones.
    And I especially feel for those who were trapped in the planes or the
    Trade Towers. What a horrible useless way to die.

    <p>

    Half of me wants to see a resonable response to all of this. But
    since I can't really think of one, the other half of me wants to be a
    war-hawk and see those who are responsible destroyed with all the
    power we have.

    <p>

    What a day.
     
  13. The seething anger here is unspeakable.
     
  14. What a sad day for the world! There are so many fine people
    throughout the world. Unfortunately, it only takes a few rotten
    apples to create tragedy.

    <p>

    A couple of days ago, we were calmly discussing our different
    opinions of Leica R and M cameras, as reasonable people would. Today
    we see the cruel actions of uncivilized cowardly terrorists who feel
    they must strike out and kill innocent people for unfathomable
    reasons. What a shame that such animals continue to exist in our
    world. Despite many years of education, my vocabulary contains no
    words vile enough to describe those terrorists. Perhaps only God
    knows why they do such horrible things.

    <p>

    I believe we should determine who is responsible for this tragedy and
    do whatever it takes to punish them appropriately, as we would punish
    any other criminal(s). Prayers and best wishes to all for your
    family and friends through this period of trouble! LB
     
  15. Dear friends,

    <p>

    this is a very sad evening for us in Berlin also. These
    televisionpictures with the WTC- towers collapsing I will never
    forget in my life. I´am an architect and never thought something like
    this could happen in our times when there is peace, at least in most
    parts of the world.

    <p>

    I hope the American Government is strong enough n o t to act
    accordingly against the presumably arabic/ near east terrorists.
    The world will not be what it used to be after this horror- day.

    <p>

    Hope the best for our LEICA- friends in NY.

    <p>

    K. G. Wolf
     
  16. Just woken up to the news here in New Zealand and my heart goes out
    to the people of America. As Bush said "freedom was attacked by
    faceless cowards". Long live freedom, long live democracy and God
    bless America.
     
  17. I work across the Potomac River from the Pentagon. I cannot describe
    how I felt to see billows of black smoke coming from the Pentagon.
    Our world will not be the same after this.
     
  18. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
    Therefore we will not fear, though the earth be removed. And though
    the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea. . .The nations
    raged, the kingdoms were moved; He uttered his voice, the earth
    melted.

    <p>

    "Be still and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations,
    I will be exalted in the earth!" (Psalm 46)

    <p>

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews
    13:8)

    <p>

    "Look unto me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God
    and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:22)
     
  19. Hello Lugers,

    <p>

    I am a photo editor at the Associated Press in San Francisco
    monitoring the terrible, and disturbing photos coming over the wire
    and like all of you it seems like some sort of terrible movie. I'm
    not sure how to respond it's so crazy. I don't think the US will ever
    be the same.

    <p>

    Regards
    Tom Gallagher

    <p>

    R\
     
  20. Thanks to Lutz and Rwatson and all the others. I'm at work putting out
    tomorrows Denver newspaper, so I'll just say thanks again.
     
  21. I just got home from work having witnessed the whole WTC tragidy from
    my Jersey City waterfront office. I still can't comprehend what I
    saw. I came here to try and get back to some sort of normalcy and
    thank our friends for thier thoughts.
     
  22. How can I respond to this unspeakable act? I consider myself a
    peaceful man, but today I want to see the blood of those responsible
    drained into the earth... Thank you for the post, Lutz, and thank you
    all for your kind words and thoughts. I never would have thought it
    would be such a great comfort to have this network to reach out to.
    May God bless the victims and their families; and God bless America.
     
  23. I hope I speak for all Canadians and wish to extend my deepest
    sympathies to all the people and their families affected by todays
    cowadly attack on the United States...............
     
  24. To our dear friends in the US.

    <p>

    We in Australia are deeply shocked and offer you our heart-felt
    sympathy and support.

    <p>

    My church's small gathering at the Wednesday "prayer breakfast" was at
    prayer for you all this morning. Little enough, but we are thinking of
    you.
     
  25. Thank you to those from overseas who have sent their condolances..
    I know we all appericiate your thought and prays...
     
  26. Yes, the United States will never be the same again. One change that
    I will welcome, and which now, more than ever, is obviously needed, is
    better airport security. That FOUR commercial jets could be hijacked
    in the same morning, in the same nation, is a sign of serious security
    problems. You posters from other countries may not know it, if you've
    never travelled in the U.S., but our airport security is a joke
    compared to all of the other nations I have visited (Europe,
    Australia, etc.). Perhaps now we will professionalize our airport
    security forces, as many other nations have done.
     
  27. I called my mother this morning, shortly after I saw the first news report. She didn't answer ... she lives just north of NYC in the suburbs. I wasn't worried for her.
    A friend of mine works in DC for the State Department. He's in the State building and in the Pentagon all the time. I dreaded callling. He sent an email around noon, he is safe.
    My cousin and his family live in the apartments just west and south of the New York WTC site, about 3 blocks away. Many friends live or work in the neighborhood there. I have no news from any of them.
    My mother called me back this afternoon. She'd just seen the news and was crying. "I'm so tired. I've already been through four wars, do I have to suffer another?"
    I can think of no answer to that plaintive cry.
    Godfrey
    The Balance

    "Do you see, children, how an act is not, as young men think, like a rock that one picks up and throws, and it hits or misses, and that's the end of it? When the rock is lifted, the earth is lighter; the hand that bears it heavier. When it is thrown the circuits of the stars respond, and where it strikes or fails the universe is changed. On every act the balance of the whole depends. The winds and the seas, the powers of water and earth and light, all that these do, and all that the beasts and green things do, is well done, and rightly done. All these act within the Equilibrium. From the hurricane and the great whale's sounding to the fall of a dry leaf and the gnat's flight, all they do is done within the balance of the whole. But we, insofar as we have the power over the world and over one another, we must learn to do what the leaf and the whale and the wise do of their own nature. We must learn to keep the balance. Having intelligence, we must not act in ignorance. Having choice, we must not act without responsibility.
    &emdash; Ursula K. LeGuin
     
  28. Neather security or inteligence, neather power or violence, neather
    in the name of revange, makes us unvulnerable; something reality has
    insist in putting in my head today.
     
  29. My heart is filled with sadness as I realize the evil that exists in
    our world today. I believe the human race is capable of peace, but
    many wish for peace and still, it is not here.
     
  30. I haven't cried for a long time but I did last nite.
    Not that I was there, not that I am in the USA, not that my friends
    or family members were lost, but just from knowing the pain
    that was suffered, still being suffered and that may never heal.

    <p>

    These are pics that I wouldn't take. Pure misery.
     
  31. To our neighbours in the USA, our thoughts & prayers are with you
    this evening. I spent the afternoon with our Emergency Measures
    Group, preparing for flights redirected and to ensure that people
    arriving on cruise ship from States arriving in our harbour would be
    met by people trained to assist in such grief. This evening my family
    attended church and offered our prayers to the families affected by
    such horrible events. All peoples are affected by such terrible
    events. We must strive to make the world better for our children.
     
  32. To all our international users of this list so shocked by these acts,
    I ask this serious question. Considering the magnitude of the attack,
    the kinetic and chemical expended by the crashing aircraft and the
    kinetic energy expended as the towers collapsed, would you be shocked
    if the us government decided that this act had crossed the nuclear
    threshold. Will you be equally shocked with the dead women and
    children seen on international television after a US retaliatory
    attack or will you say that it's terrible but they deserved it. We
    are all shocked with terrorism and loss of life. Does your shock
    extend to the point where you will see massive retalliation as
    justified.
     
  33. Thank you for the sentiments.

    <p>

    I grew up in New Jersey, in sight of New York City, and watched the
    World Trade Center complex go up over a few years. Today I watched
    it come down in a matter of seconds.

    <p>

    -Nick
     
  34. I was shaken as I watched the events unfold this morning and have no
    other words to explain this. May God be with all the families
    involved and may He give your government leaders the patience and
    forthought to do what is right in a timely fashion. I have two small
    children and I can't shake the thought of how many children in New
    York don't have a mother or father coming home tonight. How
    absolutely cowardly can humans get? My prayers are with you in the
    USA.
     
  35. What a horrible day this has been for all humanity! Thanks for the
    concern expressed here by all. Let's keep the faith!!!
     
  36. Thank you Lutz, Roberto, Robin, et. al. I can't talk any Leica talk
    today. Somehow I knew we would exchange thoughts on today's
    tragedy. I'm too shocked to collect my thoughts. I haven't been a
    very good counselor today. I could use some myself.

    <p>

    Stan Tamarkin is close to the target area. I think I'll try to check
    if they're OK.
     
  37. "Will you be equally shocked with the dead women and children seen on
    international television after a US retaliatory attack or will you say
    that it's terrible but they deserved it... Does your shock extend to
    the point where you will see massive retalliation as justified."

    <p>

    I see "massive retaliation" as justified if it is targeted at those
    who have committed this act and those who aided and abetted them. But
    violence is rarely precise, there is often "collateral damage" (to
    borrow a military term), and I believe that revenge, prevention,
    justice -- whatever you wish to call it -- is not worth the sacrifice
    of innocent lives. So yes, I would be shocked, and disappointed, at
    pictures of "dead women and children" and any other innocents, for
    that matter, and I believe many other Americans feel the same way. To
    bad it is not a universal sentiment.
     
  38. I wish to thank all of the international contributers for thier
    sympathy and compasion for the victims of this tragic event. Words
    cannot describe the emotions I have experianced today. So much
    horror, grief and anguish caused for so many innocent people, and for
    what? It is encouriging to see people pulling together in this time
    of need, but I can't for the life of me see anything good coming out
    of this. No cause will be advanced, and certainly more destruction is
    on the way.
    God help us all in the upcoming weeks.

    <p>

    Steve
     
  39. Oh God let our sorrow wash with tears the blood and the dust, and
    when calm help us find the ligth tomorrow, sorrow, so deeply sorrow.

    <p>

    I´ll go to bed now and just pray for tomorrow to be a new day.
     
  40. A new day has broken. It's still quiet in the house and quiet outside -
    quieter than on other days, it seems. I'm sitting in front of the
    screen, reading your posts with tears in my eyes. When I looked into my
    teenage daughters bedroom to wake her, she was lying awake, hadn't
    slept after the news we have been watching yesterday. I wish I could
    make this world more liveable for her and for those to come.
     
  41. Lutz,

    <p>

    Thank you.

    <p>

    Though I am far away in Singapore, I had a niece and a sister-in-law
    in the next building over who are safe, as are other immediate family
    in NYC. Those were long hours yesterday.

    <p>

    My deepest sympathies to all affected in any way, or who bear any
    loss...
     
  42. I share your feeling of pain, friends. My family and friends here in
    Russia and Ukraine are shocked and commiserate to the act of
    terrorism.
     
  43. Well what can anybody say, I feel what every sane compassionate
    person feels in such a situation, but lack of true comprehension and
    lack of words disable me. It makes everything I am passionate about
    seem so trivial.
     
  44. Me too. I don't even know how to put it. I am at a loss for words. I
    am so sorry for anybody/everybody involved. For them and their
    families and friends.
     
  45. From New Zealand too my heartfelt prayers to all Americans and to all
    peace and freedom-loving people throughout the world who have been so
    deeply shocked by this unspeakable tragedy. I remember standing on the
    top of the World Trade Center in March with my wife and my cousin, who
    lives in New Jersey. How we admired the view and waited until the sun
    went down to watch and photograph this magic city sparkling at night.
    The utter horror of what has happened is almost unbelievable. It puts
    so many other trivial things into perspective. Let us just pray that
    the forces of goodness and peace triumph. God bless!
     
  46. I also am far away, a Brit/Aussie living in Indonesia. I had no
    access to TV news last night so the first I heard of the tragedy was
    this morning. My feelings were, firstly, disbelief, then shock, then
    sympathy for the innocent, then anger toward the guilty and, right
    now, disgust at the futility of it all. For all those who have
    undergone a most terrible experience, through no fault of their own,
    victims and their loved ones, I feel very sad.

    <p>

    There is bound to be a strong response to these terrorist actions,
    though it will be difficult to focus on the real enemy, who hides
    behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity. In any event, I believe the
    people of the USA will rise to the occasion, as always, with
    nobility, dignity and honour.
     
  47. I'm from Italy. We now have seen the horror, but We must continue to
    believe in life and freedom. Un fraterno saluto a tutti voi.
     
  48. My colleagues, friends and I wish to convey our deepest sympathies to
    the families and friends of all those killed and injured in
    yesterdays horrific acts of terrorism.

    <p>

    Those who planned and perpetrated these barbaric acts are truly
    insane.
     
  49. Mixed emotions and scrambled thoughts here in London. Its senseless
    and so waistful. Human kind may be the most developed and
    supposedly 'intelligent' species on this planet. But I really wonder
    sometimes.
    I feel deep compassion for those that lost their lives completely
    innocent of this act. To all fellow Leica users in the US my thoughts
    are with you and I know you will spring back, sometime, when you are
    ready.
     
  50. At our church in England this morning we prayed for America and the
    victims and relatives and friends of all those affected by this
    indescribable disaster. Words simply cannot rise to the occasion,
    but I just want to express sympathy, solidarity and support to all
    Americans - our loved and respected allies in so many difficulties
    and dangers. You will come through all this.

    <p>

    God Bless America!
     
  51. My prayers, too, are with the Americans. I learned about the attacks in the evening; we all gathered in the house's TV room and watched, silently, as the terrorist attacks' consequences were unfolding... I don't have words for what I felt.About 60 per cent of the members of my parish are U.S. citizens. (It's one of the foreign language missions in Munich, Bavaria.) So far no-one seems to have lost relatives, but there's plenty of tension. Yesterday evening services, and all services today in Bavaria, remembered the dead, and we prayed for the injured. There's a special Mass for the Sick in one Munich church every third Saturday of a Month; you can be sure I'll include all the victims of the attacks in the prayers on the 15th.Lord, let the dead see Your light; heal the injured; help their families, and be with the helpers, with all who witnessed the tragedy and its consequences. I also pray for the U.S. Government: that it may have the strength to not retaliate; and for those responsible for the attacks: that they may understand what they have actually done, and act accordingly.Pax et bonum,
     
  52. Thanks, Lutz, and all our friends around the world. The hate in this
    world is sickening. The last words of the murderers: "God is great."
     
  53. Perhaps my prayer that the U.S. may not retaliate may lead to misunderstandings. Punishment of whoever is responsible, yes. Responding in a similar way, by hardly checked violence, no.If it's fundamentalist Moslems, what an interpretation of the Quran is that that enables people to believe that killing innocent others is OK under certain circumstances?I continue to pray for all the victims of the attacks, and for their families. We may be used to occasional bombs in Europe, but 'New York' is a synonym for a new dimension of terror now. I feel the wish to strike back surge in me, too. In Europe, we are so trained to not show grief that it turns into aggression. I admire this forum's participants' peacefulness, in that they remember the victims and pray for them, instead to call for revenge.Pax et bonum,
     
  54. Oliver:

    <p>

    It is unfortunate that fundamentalist Muslims give all muslims a bad
    name. Equally it is unfortunate when fundamentalist Christians give
    all Christians a bad name in the United States.

    <p>

    What is interesting however to consider is that Islam is the only
    major monotheostic religion which advocates killing non-believers.
    Many muslims will tell you this is not true, but a study of their
    religeon reveals otherwise.

    <p>

    Muslims believe in the Jihad. However, they speak of two different
    Jihads. The greater Jihad is the battle one fights within his own
    self to follow the faith and totally dedicate his life to his god.
    The lesser Jihad is the battle against those forces and entities which
    stand as a threat to Islam. This is given far lesser significance in
    mainline Islam but it exists nonetheless. Both Christianity and
    Judiism have a history of religeous war but both religeons have
    evolved beyond this. They probably both would respond with deadly
    force if there were an outright threat to the foundations of the
    religeon but most would use nonviolent means for all lesser threats.
    Most of Islam has not evolved much since the 8th century, about 100
    years after Muhamad walked the earth. During the 8th century, killing
    nonbelievers was legitimate. In most of Islam, it still is.

    <p>

    The big difference between Islamic terrorists and most the rest the
    world is the use of innocents to make the attack and the total
    targeting of innocent people.

    <p>

    I find it hard to believe that Islam, Christianity and Judiism all
    worship the same God, the God of Abraham. How we have all diverged
    from a more or less common origin.
     
  55. How insignificant anything else seems compared to the events of the
    past 24 hours in the United States. I have sat glued to the images of
    devestation on my television screen, unable on occasions to hold back
    tears. The feeling of sorrow today over London is like the darkest
    cloud, my thoughts are with all in the US.
     
  56. A tragedy of this magnitude really puts life into perspective,
    doesn't it? I was feeling sorry for myself because I have just been
    diagnosed with an eye problem which may permanently impair visual
    acuity in my right eye. Since my hobbies are photography, birding,
    and target shooting with pistols, I was depressed. But the tragic
    events of yesterday shows that my problems are so minuscule and that
    I am indeed VERY BLESSED by God!

    <p>

    I don't believe my God approves of the senseless slaughter of
    innocent victims by such terrorist attacks as we say yesterday.
    These are truly despicable acts by despicable animals of the homo
    sapiens tribe. (I refuse to call them people.) Let us concentrate
    on our points of agreement and agree to disagree when we differ. May
    God bless us all in this time of tribulation, especially those who
    have suffered loss or injury to family or friends. LB
     
  57. Terrible tragedy-I know no words to describe it. The worst part of
    this is knowing it could happen again, and that any steps taken to
    prevent it will not likely be successful and will only instead take
    away some of the personal freedom we enjoy here in the states. I will
    not be surprised to see a military presence in airports in the
    future. I also feel for those Americans of Arab decent living in the
    US who may become misdirected targets for the widespead anger present
    here now. It is my deepest hope that the citizens and goverment of
    the US uses wisdom in dealing with this situation.
     
  58. There is no way to put into words the feelings and emotions of the
    last 24 hours. Like thousands of families in the USA and around the
    world, I had to wait many anxious hours for news of loved ones. My
    brother who was working in the Pentagon, and a brother-in-law whose
    office was at the WTC, are alright. We were fortunate. My heart
    goes out to the families of the those killed. We will pray for you.
     
  59. What a sad day. The entire world is shocked by what happened
    yesterday and all my prays go the the family of the victims, the
    countless children that have lost a father or a mother. I am shocked,
    sad, and will never forget that day.

    <p>

    Mark, you cannot say that "The big difference between Islamic
    terrorists and most the rest the world is the use of innocents to
    make the attack and the total targeting of innocent people". It is
    not the place and the time to be provocative but note that extremists
    all over the world do act the same way, and in that respect your
    fellow Timothy McVeigh is not different that those you planned and
    executed these terrible attacks. Terrorists in Europe, in Asia, in
    the Middle East, .... did use innocents and did target innocent
    people. So please do not post unfunded statement and let us work
    alltogether for a better world where or children and grandchildren
    enjoy peace and serenity in a world of jjustice... and we
    photographers, each in its on way, will pass on to our children
    pictures of our world as we see it: a wonderful, but fragile, world.
    Washington, DC.
     
  60. Mark:

    <p>

    I think you have completely forgotten about the bombing of the
    federal building in Oklahoma City. You also should think twice
    before slandering a religion you obviously know very little about.....
     
  61. Everyone in my office has been walking around stunned since
    yesterday. I quail at the thought of the bloodshed to follow. The
    U.S. must respond, and who knows how long the killing will go on? I
    think I'm most concerned for the innocent Muslims the world wide who
    will suffer discrimination and possibly death because of the actions
    of a fanatic few. Many of us have had a great deal of sympathy for
    the plight of the Palestinians, for instance, and have not been happy
    with recent events in the Middle East, but the sight of Palestinians
    dancing in the streets, celebrating the deaths of thousands of
    Americans, will harden the hearts of even the most sympathetic of our
    citizens. Arafat condemned the attacks, because he knows well that it
    bodes ill for his people.

    <p>

    As a U.S. citizen, I truly appreciate the condolences of the many
    people around the world who have posted here. Now the sleeping
    American giant has been awakened, and woe to the enemies of the
    United States--they'll be hunted down and killed like the dogs they
    are, and nothing can stop it now.
     
  62. My condolences to all the people who have been directly affected by
    this horrendous series of events. All America must stand together and
    be strong and say in one voice, No more terrorism! Those responsible
    for these events must be held accountable.
     
  63. Please, no I have not forgotten about Oklahoma City. That was an act
    of terrorism committed by an American against Americans. His target
    was citizens but he did not use citizens as weapons in that action.
    If you all will remember, the one most closely linked to that act was
    at the time a professed nonbeliever. True he was raised Catholic
    Christian but in his own words, he held no beliefs at that time.
    Also, I did mention that Fundamentalist Christians give all Christians
    a bad name. There is probably a somewhat general statement there that
    any radical fundamentalists will give their respective larger group a
    bad name.

    <p>

    To clearify my previous point, regardless of what anyone might think
    about Oklahoma City etc., modern Christianity does not allow killing
    and does not advocate killing non believers. Modern Judiism in the
    United States similarly does not allow killing. Modern Islam is
    basically the same as Islam was in the years 632 - 800 (Christian
    calander - sorry, I do not know the equivalent dates on the Muslim
    calander). Modern Islam still believes in the lesser Jihad and
    believes it is right and necessary to kill those who stand in the way
    of Islam.

    <p>

    Since I have evidently struck a nerve with some Islamic readers, I am
    deeply troubled as the Koran mentions that Christians and Jews are
    also "people of the book" and should be tolerated with no forced
    conversions.

    <p>

    This quickly gets to be much too broad and deep of a topic for a Leica
    photographs forum. I have many such conversations with my Muslim
    friends at a local university. Two are from Iran (Shiites I think)
    and two others from Saudi Arabia (Suni's I think). These are
    wonderful people who I am proud to call friends but they are clear on
    the point that the lesser Jihad is taught as a part of their religeon.

    <p>

    Hopefully, those with tastes sufficiently refined to be drawn to Leica
    cameras would never be involved with such acts and would equally
    deplore them.

    <p>

    I think we as rational people on this earth need to stamp out such
    acts of violence directed against peace loving citizens everywhere.
    We also need the millions of rational Muslims the world over to
    pressure their political and religeous leaders to abandon the
    teachings of the lesser Jihad.

    <p>

    Please, none of this is directed towards Muslims in general. We have
    Christian terrorists active in Northern Ireland and some in rural
    areas of the United States. We need to stamp these radicals
    everywhere.
     
  64. The debate about Islam vs. Christianity vs. Judaism is a long one. A
    religion is more than its texts, but also how people interpret those
    texts. Let's not let killers off the hook by condemning their
    religion- condemn their acts, often made in the name of a religion or
    an idea.

    <p>

    I don't claim to be an expert of the Middle East, but I would imagine
    that in addition to the difference of religions, you have differences
    in how the religions are followed and the cultural context of the
    conflict: liberal secular vs. fundamentalist medieval; European vs.
    Semitic; global capitalism vs. tribal cultures, imperialism vs. self-
    determination.

    <p>

    Violent acts tend to polarize- let's not give the killers more power by
    coming apart.
     
  65. I feel compelled to contribute again. Acts of violence tend to
    polarize people, divide them, rather than bring them together.

    <p>

    This has been such a wonderful forum because people from all over the
    world with a particular photographic interest, aesthetic, vision, can
    come together. Compared to other places in cyberspace, we have shown
    ourselves to be passionate about the subject, always helpful, and ever
    civil. Perhaps Leica users tend to be more interested in the human
    condition. We all share that interest, and a passion for documenting
    it. We could all now become our own subjects, as we struggle to come
    to grips with this tragedy.

    <p>

    Who knows what good will come out of these attacks? We must find it-
    for the memory of the dead and for all those who will be physically and
    psychically wounded the rest of their lives.

    <p>

    I think most people believe that, regardless of our religion, culture,
    history, etc., we want similar things in a civilization. If we allow
    the acts of these criminals to further divide the living, then they
    will have done even more damage than they have already done.

    <p>

    I was fortunate enough to spend yesterday evening with my family and
    close family friends. I hope everyone here can do the same in the days
    that come. My sister works across from the Pentagon in DC, and is
    safe.

    <p>

    They have committed a heinous crime. Let's not add to their power by
    becoming filled with hate, becoming like one of them. These killers
    lived and died by the idea that differences only lead to tragedy and
    suffering. At the moment, it may seem so. But let's rise to the
    challenge and prove them wrong.

    <p>

    Let's stay together.
     
  66. Tse,

    <p>

    I live in DC and all my family is safe. Yesterday afternoon, I took
    my two sons (1 and 3 year old) for a walk downtown DC because we
    should not allowed these acts change our way of live, and think. I
    find your words right and rich. I browsed other forum for a few
    minutes and was appalled by how shocking some comments can be. Iff
    one acts or thinks like those terrorists an fanatics, we would just
    be like them. Really, this forum stands above.
     
  67. ... and we photographers, each in its on way, will pass on to our children pictures of our world as we see it: a wonderful, but fragile, world.

    Thank you, Angelique. You have expressed what I have been thinking the whole day. We need to counterweigh the horror we and our children were forced to witness for the past hours. I will feel committed to this goal more than ever before.
     
  68. Joan Baez wrote a song about how various people have committed
    atrocities, all the while claiming to have "God on our side." This
    song came to mind for me while reading today's posts. Anyone can
    rationalize giving in to instincts for aggression, revenge, etc. by
    deciding they have God on their side. I am glad to hear the
    president say that we will have to take our time before we will know
    what to do. We have to get over the initial rage reaction first. It
    was Joseph Stalin who said "Revenge is best served cold." Meaning,
    you can't make rational decisions while still in a rage. I don't
    think the U.S. will do anything stupid, or act without U.N. approval.
     
  69. Terrorists like to use religion as their excuse. Despotic rulers
    claim that they are simply enforcing their religion when they enslave
    and cruelly persecute their unfortunate subjects. However, truly
    religious people do not victimize other human beings, they are not
    murderous cowards consumed with hatred, neither are they sadistic
    dictators. To associate acts of terror with any religion is a
    mistake, IMHO, and is an insult to the religion in question. Bigotry
    is not religion.
     
  70. All this talk of God and prayers. Here is my prayer:

    <p>

    Dear God,

    Thanks for the universe, it is really cool.

    <p>

    We have a problem here on Earth because we have these different books
    which all claim to contain Your thoughts and wishes, and these books
    make one guy want to kill his neighbor and it is getting pretty nasty.

    <p>

    So, God, Lord, could you please let us know which book it is You
    endorse? Sorry if I'm imposing, but time is sort of the essence,
    because we're torching some pricey real estate.

    <p>

    If You are too busy, etc., we understand. What's another human
    catastrophy to a diety like Yourself? But, if we don't hear from You
    by Friday, could we possibly assume responsibility for our own
    future? I know, we're children and all, but give us this chance,
    whadayay say God?

    <p>

    Personal request: if You do show up and there's a photo op I have a
    Leica. Let me know where?

    <p>

    Thanks, Your pal,
    Jeff
     
  71. <<Terrorists like to use religion as their excuse. Despotic rulers
    claim that they are simply enforcing their religion when they enslave
    and cruelly persecute their unfortunate subjects. However, truly
    religious people do not victimize other human beings, they are not
    murderous cowards consumed with hatred, neither are they sadistic
    dictators. To associate acts of terror with any religion is a mistake,
    IMHO, and is an insult to the religion in question. Bigotry is not
    religion. -- Ray Moth>>

    <p>

    Thank you Ray for putting into words my sentiments. There are
    fundamentalists and extremists among all of the major religious groups
    of the world. But they are a tiny minority, and certainly are not
    representative of the majority by definition. They distort and use
    religious icons and beliefs to achieve their ends. Their actions
    should not be used to judge or condemn that relig
     
  72. Jeff, excellent prayer, I've glued it to the back of my camera.

    <p>

    Ray. truly religious people...? Religion is only a small part of
    life, along with paying the mortgage, buying weetabix and beating the
    wife. Saying that truly religious people don't go to war or whatever
    is like saying that true cyclists don't shout at their kids, or money
    isn't really important. Truly religious people have always gone to
    war and for the most indefensible reasons. That is the reality.

    <p>

    Someone said that the perpetrators of this crime are animals not
    people? So there's hope for the human race after all.

    <p>

    I'm just as shocked as anyone by what happened here, but we have to
    accept the variety of people's motivations and think historically if
    we want to live decently rather than exult over the bombing of some
    ME city next week. Although the script's already written, as far as I
    can see.

    <p>

    R.
     
  73. Robert,

    <p>

    I had hoped that what I said was clear enough but, just in case it
    wasn't, I'll try to make it clearer. I was trying to say that people
    who really believe in and follow a religion are not terrorists. No
    religion preaches or supports terrorism. A terrorist who claims to be
    acting in pursuance of a religion is seriously misguided, suffering
    from delusions or a liar. Religion and terrorism are mutually
    exclusive. A 'religious terrorist' is an oxymoron.

    <p>

    I'm not saying religious people don't go to war. That's a different
    issue, IMHO, although I realise we could argue all day about
    definitions of terrorism. And I envy you being able to get Weetabix;
    I can only get Weetbix, which is an Australian breakfast cereal that
    I like but is no substitute for the real thing.
     
  74. I'm an Oz, a sometime contributor to this site and a Leica user.
    I'm a human who has seen the face of lunacy this week and I grieve for
    our loss of innocence. Not just the awakening to danger but awakening
    to the world where individual life is irrelevant.
    I grieve with my family for all of your families and I ask the same as
    the rest of the civilized world:"God Bless America" and God have mercy
    on us all.
    Peter Phillips
     
  75. Despite being so far away here in New Zealand, I extend my hand and
    heart out to any and all affected by this weeks tragedy. My thoughts
    are with you all. Let us pray for wise decisions and warm hearts.

    <p>

    God speed and luck to all rescue workers who are now faced with the
    reality of this nightmare.

    <p>

    Peace to us all.

    <p>

    Wayne
     
  76. I'm still in a state of disbelief regarding the terror we all have
    seen on Television for the last two days. I have a hard time to
    accept that it has happened, it feels unreal. I feel sorry for all
    who were killed or hurt or knew people that were.

    <p>

    I lived in New York state for two years and is now back in my
    homecountry, Sweden. Also here people are people are shocked.

    <p>

    I have to say something about the media coverage. All in all I think
    it has been done very well, and quite sensible. In order to
    understand that this horror has actually occured we need to see the
    pictures again and again. However, there have also been examples of
    what I suspect is speculation in tragedy. I speak mainly of the
    photage of celebrating people on the street in palestinian refugee
    camps. I believe, from listening to radioreporters, that the
    photographers/newsteams were actively searching for people
    celebrating the terror-attack. Listening to radio the impression is
    that the "celebration" was quite rare. Amongst the millions of people
    who live in the middle-east the newsteams searched out the very few
    that went out on the streets and did "their stunts" in front of a TV-
    camera. If this indeed were as rare as the radiobroadcasts have
    hinted on, it is a very sad thing to give it the coverage it has
    recieved. Also, the words (as I remember them) of a palestinian
    professor who was devastated about the terror attack stuck in my
    mind; "The Street may have in some cases reacted with demonstrations
    of happiness about this terrorist attack, but the people anywhere
    should never be judged by how the Street reacts. The Street is never
    subtle, the Street is not thinking, the Street is not a mirror of the
    people in the country". Or something to that effect he said.

    <p>

    The Americans are as a whole strong people and I believe that they
    will overcome this act of terrorism in time, but these are truly sad
    days.
     
  77. Yestarday declarations of US President Bush, about tuesday incidents,
    saing those were not acts of terrorism, but acts of war, and the
    constant spectations in the news of the monumental strong back
    response of united states to this attacks, leaves my mind blank of
    future solutions to our civilisation´s development of agrees acording
    to our cultural diferences.

    <p>

    Lutz; thanks for the oportunity you gave to this forum in this
    posting, we have had the oportunity to share feeling of anger and
    pain as well as love and compasion.
     
  78. I can't believe the one guy on the LUG who pleaded with the list to
    stop the "terrorism thread!" How impersonal and clinical can one be.
    The world is shocked, and the Leica Forum has open arms for
    discussion. Leica Photography means a hell of a lot more than
    pressing a stupid button.
     
  79. Tony,

    <p>

    Again I want to say how happy I am to have found this site a year and
    a half ago. This single thread, with messages from all over the
    world, from people of many different religions is the most civil and
    cathartic that I have seen. The Leica Customer forum in contrast is
    being used as a sounding board for radical thinkers, pointing blame
    and using contrived logic to show why the attacks were warranted. I
    shall delete that site from my "favorites" list.

    <p>

    To everyone here: Thank you all for the adult, level headed dialog.
    Even when we disagree, it is in a civil manner. We are not sheep, we
    have our own minds. A closed mind is like a full cup... it is
    useless because you can't put anything else in it. As I read through
    this thread, (and the many others about cameras), I will keep an open
    mind and hopefully learn something.
     
  80. Another heart-felt thanks to all of those who sent condolences to us
    Yanks.

    <p>

    But don't grieve just for us. Among the dead and missing (WTC and
    airliners both) 100+ British, 100 +/- Japanese, 50-100 Canadian, 50
    Bangladeshi, 90+ Aussie, 20+ Korean, 11 Mexican, 6 Colombian, 2 Swiss,
    8 Italian, 3 Lebanese, 2 El Salvadoran, and an untold number of
    others. 5 entire Chinese firms from the Towers haven't checked in yet.

    <p>

    Whoever it was may have thought they were attacking a symbol of the
    U.S. But it was the World they killed.
     
  81. I was unable to log on till now. I wanted to add something while it
    is still daytime in Europe, but nuts, I missed it. Over the last few
    days I have found it more and more difficult to turn on the TV, those
    images, those planes, over and over now they penetrate and explode
    right inside my head.

    <p>

    But late last night I turned on the TV anyway, and saw the amazing
    sight of the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace, the band
    playing our anthem, The Star Spangled Banner. It took me by surprize,
    I recognized the setting, but not the melody right away, though I've
    heard it thousands of times.

    <p>

    The ceremony, the gesture and symbolism were sublime, reassuring,
    perfect. Thank you.

    <p>

    We should do more of this. We should play each others' anthems, maybe
    even learn the words. We are clearly all in this together, one way or
    the other.

    <p>

    By the way, the old song sounded wonderful, played with dignity,
    weight and purpose. We have developed this unfortunate custom over
    here of mangling the tune. Performers, for some reason, feel obliged
    to sing out of tune, out of time, and to embellish the melody till
    she comes off like a tricked out whore. Thanks for the good example.
     
  82. I want to thank all of my international friends for their kinds
    words. I heard part of Tony Blair's address to Parliment and it
    brought tears to my eyes. It is a small world and we must
    cooperate for the better of all. Peace and God bless you all.
     
  83. My deepest sympathies from Greece to all people and their families
    affected by the attack on the United States. I wish this was the last
    criminal act all over the world causing the life of innocent people.
    I like this dialogue. I believe that now we learn more about the life
    and the world, the people, the religions, the terrorists. I agree
    with Al and I believe that in order to make better pictures or simply
    to make photography we do not need only information about cameras and
    lenses but also information about the people, the life and the world.
     
  84. I haven't checked this forum for a few days. I am shocked and saddened
    by the events of this week, but I'm almost equally shocked and
    saddened by the hate and bigotry and bellicose reactions that I've
    seen over the last few days in other places on the web. I feel so much
    better having read this thread.

    <p>

    THANK YOU TONY for the Leica forum!

    <p>

    Joe
     
  85. I was doing some development work for UNESCO in a remote part of the
    northern Philippines when I heard the news. We rushed to the local
    mayor's office and crowded around a TV watching the CNN and BBC.
    Quoting Yasir Arafat's words, it was unbelievable; we couldn't
    believe what we saw on TV. My colleagues and I, controlling our
    anger and disbelief, reached for our cellphones and frantically
    called people who had friends and relatives working in New York to
    see if they were all right (thank God they were). One local Filipino
    guy was supposed to report to work on the fateful day in the
    restaurant on the top floor of the World Trade Centre, but he got a
    call from his colleagues two days earlier telling him to stay put for
    a couple of days as the restaurant's renovation wasn't ready. That
    poor guy was so shocked by the news (with implications on the lives
    of his friends and colleagues) that he wasn't sure he could return to
    New York any more. Watching the newsclips of the unfolding disaster
    brought out the extremes of emotions in me--I found myself quietly
    praying for the innocent victims even though I wasn't a religious
    person, and I found myself cursing the people responsible even though
    I'm not a hateful person. My consolation is that the world has
    seemed to stand united against the terrorist bastards responsible,
    and they are not going to get away with what they have done.
     
  86. The problem with getting back at the "terrorist bastards" is that
    there are only two weapons against terror: prosperity and justice for
    the oppressed on the one hand, and terror on the other. Unfortunately
    the west's response seems to be to choose the latter. The war against
    terrorism cannot be won. Terrorism is the weapon of the disposessed
    and does not present conventional military targets. I'm afraid that
    the US response to this atrocity will be no more than a string of
    similar atrocities, which will only raise the stakes. Good business
    for arms manufacturers and no doubt the markets will rally briefly
    before the real cost of this conflict becomes apparent.

    <p>

    This event is a historical opportunity for the west to review its
    interventionist and anti-people policies of the last five decades, to
    realise that their (our) actions have consequences. In the heat of
    the moment, the opportunity will be missed and we will enter a new
    era of global conflict.

    <p>

    I'm not optimistic.
     
  87. With very close relatives who were far too close for comfort to the
    horror, I am not sure I agree, Rob, if you are talking about the
    terrorists who planned the plane crashes (aside from the suicides).
    Only violence against them might prevent them from taking life again.

    <p>

    But I do agree with the general proposition.

    <p>

    On the web, the playwright August Wilson and a playwright have a
    conversation.

    <p>

    I paraphrase heavily, and shall provide a link when I find it...

    <p>

    The critic says-of the terrorists and the societies they are from-
    that "now we are forced to live in their dream".

    <p>

    Wilson nails it on the head when he replies "no, it is that are being
    forced to live in our dream", a dream which leaves them no room to
    live in their own dream.

    <p>

    At a gut level, this is very hard to argue with. And at a gut level,
    no matter how great my shock at a personal level, assertions of "pure
    evil", "destruction of civilization" (something that you could
    equally assert about the Rwanda killings or bombings of Cambodia, as
    someone else pointed out), and "madmen" do not ring true...

    <p>

    There were just too many terrorists, well trained, purposeful, with
    families, living in America, but willing to give up their lives, for
    that explanation to hold true, as it might for a Ted Kaczynski. These
    are the lashings out of extreme segments of whole peoples who feel
    inexorably cornered, with their civilisation coming to an end for no
    good reason.
     
  88. Mani, no doubt violence is a necessary tool against certain people,
    but that is a police matter, military intervention is not a suitable
    response in such a situation, that was my point. Of course I agree
    with you - I generally do ;-).

    <p>

    The Wilson quote is excellent, mail me the url if you find it.
     
  89. Rob,
    <BR><BR>
    Thanx for your clear words. After days of trying to grasp where these
    tremendous acts sprang from I can only fully agree with what you say.
    There sure is a much deeper motivation to the extremists' terror than
    our establishment's rethoric wants us to believe. The terroristic acts
    have fully succeeded at least in one sense so far: there is plenty of
    background information available these days, if you carefully select
    the sources. And I rub my eyes in disbelieve - how could I, how could
    the western world underestimate the menace of international terrorism
    to such an extent - and, moreover, ignore the obvious reasons for it.
    Religious fanatism is a mere means for rebellion to manifest itself in
    the most extreme of all forms - while humiliation and despair (for as
    subjective as they may be experienced) as well as exploitation are
    widespread and common at its source.
    <BR><BR>
    The past days I have been thinking about my own state of depression and
    that of people around me. All of us are living in a very privileged
    world. Problems of any kind suddenly seem ridiculous compared to not
    only those of the thousands' of last week's victims and their relatives
    - but also compared to those of the vast majority of the global
    population.
    <BR><BR>
    Talking photography, leave alone Leica, doesn't feel quite right for me
    these days...
    <BR><BR>
    Just as you, Rob, I'm not optimistic, either. When I see and hear the
    president of the United States I see a person with limited gifts and
    limited options under pressure. Just another slave to a warlord's
    rethoric and a narrow logic that doesn't permit real apprehension of
    what is at stake, globally speaking. And his allies aren`t much of an
    alternative - how could they possibly be.
    <BR><BR>
    If I was religious, I would pray now. For wisdom.
     
  90. My thanks to all of the posters on this forum! I never met any of
    you personally and yet I have felt a closeness to you this week.
    Sharing our grief, anger, frustration, disbelief, and hope has helped
    me try to deal with this unbelievable act of terrorism. I keep
    waiting to hear some newsperson say "And this concludes Orson
    Welles's latest thriller from Hollywood". But this is REAL, although
    I still have difficulty grasping the truth of that.
    Thanks again to all. I look forward to sharing better times and
    happier thoughts with you. LB
     
  91. After seeing that plane crashing against the twin towers hundreds of
    times, and searching into the news hopping to find a GOOD new out of
    all this, I spent this last weekend with loved ones, now reading your
    last coments on this posting by our friend Lutz, and coments by Rob
    and Mani; I wander how you fellows from Europe feel about it?; here
    in Mexico we are so worried about the economic disaster this may
    bring, and of course the war, we may feel far from this phisicaly,
    but how far can any one be, I just don´t know what to think now,
    every thing seems to be up to, but up to who? and up to what?
    Shall I go to bed now?
    and I´ve been having this strange dreams lately?
    I don´t like the images that medias bring us to see this days, they
    are humanly poor, but I know this is also a work of edition, not just
    photographers.
    well good nigth; here in Mazatlán Mexico time is 12:39 a.m. monday
    17th
     
  92. I received a mail today, some thoughts on western options from the viewpoint of an Afghan emigrant. Read it if you care, I think it's worthwhile.
     
  93. Lutz,

    <p>

    I care, and it certainly is worthwhile. Thanks.

    <p>

    Mike
     
  94. I appreciate the truth and pathos of that link.

    <p>

    It's so tempting to want clear cut answers with clear cut action -
    NOW! As with most worthwhile endeavours however we know in our hearts
    that it's never that simple. The contents of that link make that plain

    <p>

    The maturity of response demanded of the US by this aweful tragedy is
    enormous (and correspondingly painful) and in my opinion will be the
    difference between revenge and justice. The response of the US will
    indicate whether we are condemned to repeating the mistakes of history
    or transcending them.

    <p>

    The USA is a great nation and that greatness is now being put to the
    test.

    <p>

    Pray for wisdom.
     
  95. ARGENTINA said five of its nationals were missing.

    <p>

    AUSTRALIA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead. Another 69
    who were in the vicinity of the World Trade Center at the time of the
    attacks were unaccounted for.

    <p>

    BANGLADESH said at least 50 Bangladeshis were killed in the carnage
    at the World Trade Center, where many worked in restaurants and
    offices.

    <p>

    BELGIUM said 60 of its nationals present in New York at the time of
    the attack, including four workers in the WTC, were still missing.

    <p>

    BRAZIL said 26 of its nationals were missing.

    <p>

    BRITAIN said nearly 100 of its citizens were confirmed dead. Prime
    Minister Tony Blair said Sunday that the death toll of Britons,
    probably 200 to 300, would be the highest in any attack since the end
    of World War II.

    <p>

    CANADA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead and between 50
    and 100 others were still missing.

    <p>

    CHINA said that three Chinese nationals died and another was missing.
    A man and woman, both in their 60s, died aboard the plane that was
    sent into the side of the Pentagon. A 41-year-old Chinese person was
    missing.

    <p>

    DENMARK'S foreign ministry said around 20 of its nationals were
    unaccounted for.

    <p>

    EGYPT said one of its nationals was confirmed dead and at least three
    others were missing.

    <p>

    FRANCE said a small number of its nationals working in the World
    Trade Center were unaccounted for. A foreign ministry spokesman said
    no French dead have yet been confirmed.

    <p>

    GERMANY has compiled a provisional list of more than 700 nationals
    missing since the attacks, but a foreign ministry spokesman said the
    actual number was much lower and the list of missing persons was
    rapidly shrinking by the hour.

    <p>

    HONG KONG said 17 people were missing, four of them working in New
    York and 12 living there. One was visiting the city.

    <p>

    INDONESIA said one of its citizens died on one of the four hijacked
    planes and another of its citizens was missing.

    <p>

    ITALY said 57 Italians were missing on the basis of data supplied by
    its consulate in New York. Most worked in the World Trade Center or
    lived in the area. The foreign ministry said 29 people with Italian
    names were among the injured in hospital, but their nationality had
    not been confirmed.

    <p>

    JAPAN said two Japanese died on the hijacked planes, and that another
    22 who were in the World Trade Center were missing.

    <p>

    MALAYSIA said seven of its nationals working in the World Trade
    Center were missing.

    <p>

    PAKISTAN said only one Pakistani has been confirmed dead in the
    attacks but that figure is certain to rise. A government spokesman
    said around 650 Pakistani nationals worked in the World Trade Center.

    <p>

    THE PHILIPPINES said two Filipinos were confirmed dead and 115 were
    missing.

    <p>

    SOUTH AFRICA said at least one South African was presumed dead:
    businessman Edmund Glazer, a 41-year-old immigrant to the United
    States who telephoned his wife from aboard the first aircraft flown
    into the World Trade Center.

    <p>

    The Pretoria government said it was investigating reports of eight
    South Africans who may have been inside the World Trade Center, in
    the areas immediately surrounding it, or aboard the flights that
    destroyed the twin towers, and of a further 16 South Africans
    reported to have been in the areas near the disaster sites in New
    York and suburban Washington.

    <p>

    SPAIN said it was without news of nine of its citizens, but declined
    to describe them as officially missing. Press reports said they were
    seven people living in New York and two tourists.

    <p>

    SOUTH KOREA said 19 of its nationals were missing.

    <p>

    SWEDEN said one of its citizens was missing.

    <p>

    SWITZERLAND said four of its citizens were killed: two on board one
    of the planes that smashed into the World Trade Center, and two who
    were in the towers. Another two who were in the vicinity were
    missing.

    <p>

    TURKEY said it was tracking 131 people still unaccounted for. A total
    of 326 Turks had been traced alive out of 457 reported missing.
    Around 500 Turks worked in the World Trade Center.

    <p>

    TAIWAN said nine Taiwanese were missing.......................

    <p>



    <p>



    <p>

     
  96. Dear Muhammad, here in Mexico we are counting hundreds among
    travelers on the crashed planes and workers in the twin towers, we
    still don´t know the exact number, and I belive we´ll never know, for
    sure we are all involved in this tragedy.

    <p>

    Lutz; thank´s again for linking us to that letter, always fundamental
    to see all the points of view, let´s hope this war goes to whom
    deserve to pay for it and not inocent people, there were already a
    lot of inocent people that had paid, for free.
     
  97. After the shock, after the sadness, after all these great exchanges
    we had on this thread I am getting scared. As a European living in
    the US, I am shocked by the lack of analyses and historical
    perspectives in the US Media. I encourage all to read some very good
    articles on The Economist, The Financial Times, or, for those who
    know a bit of French, Le Monde. For example I have not seen a single
    US Newspapers exploring the role the CIA played in financing and
    training the Taliban and Bin Laden. A Belgian weekly magazine has on
    its front page "Bin Laden: ex-CIA Agent". It is a crucial time to
    scrutinize 20, 30 years of US Foreign policy and see how it may have
    contributed to the rise of Islamic extremism. For many decades, the
    US has supported non-democratic governments, first in the fight
    against the Soviet Union, then to secure Oil supply, and these
    governments have been known to support and harbor terrorists
    organisations. A word we hear a lot is "War", "America will strike
    back". America has to strike back but without a deep reflection on
    its foreign policy and a change of attitude, any military action will
    throw more people in the arms of terrorists organizations the like of
    Bin Laden ... In the past months, the leaders of Jordan and Egypt
    have sent messages to Bush to be more involved in the conflict in the
    Middle East and there is a mounting radicalisation in the Streets of
    Amman or Cairo. We do not want the stability of these moderate
    countries to be endangered by a few who would take advantage of the
    situation. These are some reflections...and I don t know what other
    people here think about it, but the American responses should have
    many facets (military, political, economical,...)
     
  98. "I wander how you fellows from Europe feel about it?"

    <p>

    Obviously everyone in Europe is shocked by the scale of the loss of
    life. But many people see it as something that has been coming for a
    long time.

    <p>

    Despite the opportunistic attempts to jump into the breach by the
    Italians and British (who have always been America's stooges in
    Europe anyway (I am a British citizen living in Italy myself)), I
    think many people here are worried by the prospect of an
    unaccountable, belligerent US taking unilateral action against
    civilians in some of the poorest countries in the world, which can
    only lead to an escalation of conflict worldwide. The US has
    repeatedly shown its contempt for the UN and its readiness to resort
    to violence, and this does not augur well.

    <p>

    I think many Europeans see the seemingly uncritical US support for
    Israel as being at the root of this conflict (alongside its
    interventions in nearly all the Middle Eastern "rogue" states) and
    want to see a change in policy in this area.

    <p>

    I suspect that if you were to poll Europeans about what should be the
    response to this event, they would come down more on the side of
    mediation and negotiation than military intervention. But of course,
    no-one believes that that is going to happen.

    <p>

    As for myself, I was planning to emigrate to India myself early next
    year but I believe the whole region will be destabilised by the
    almost certain prospect of US bombardment of Afghanistan. So the
    travel plans are indefinitely postponed...

    <p>

    As a disclaimer, I would just say that I'm not particularly anti-
    American, but as a European I'm open to both sides of the argument,
    while deploring _all_ intemperate violence. It is worrying to me that
    America combines its vast power with the provincialism of its policy
    makers. This couldn't have happened at a worse time.
     
  99. Incidentally, I'm very impressed by how moderate the comment on this
    list has been. It's hard to have a non-American perspective on the
    internet and I think this forum is remarkable for the balance of
    opinions that come up on it. It's a tribute to Tony and to all
    participants.
     
  100. Last night I had a thought - what if the US (instead of investing
    billions of $ in what is likely to become a Third World War) "bombed"
    Afganistan and all nations where they suspect and/or identify
    terrorists' coves with food, medical supplies, humanitarian and non-
    profit economical help - while still banning and prosecuting terrorism
    with political and legal means. This would save millions of bucks and
    souls and it would definitely eradicate the terrorism it presently
    evokes and will multiply with a war. <BR><BR> Could anybody please
    point out the downsides...?!
     
  101. Hmmm, Lutz, definitely a good question. This is the 100th answer here,
    give me another 2000 years and maybe I'll come up with a good comment
    to your last contribution.
     
  102. Lutz,

    <p>

    There is not a civilized society on earth that hasn't
    already "banned" and made illegal the hijacking of innocents on
    airplanes, crashing them into innocent people in buildings, and
    committing mass murder. It is against all laws everywhere. I'm not
    sure what other legal and political remedies remain.

    <p>

    A "Marshall Plan" for the middle east is a terrific idea. The main
    problem is the corrupt and despotic leadership in many of these
    countries. Getting the goods to the people in need is very difficult
    in such militaristic regimes. Many of these countries are fabulously
    wealthy already. They "won't" allow political opposition and would
    see an aid package to their people as subservsive to their
    governments.

    <p>

    Finally, those international naysayers about the patience and
    temperance of the USA and it's allies should acknowledge the
    restraint already shown. Israel would have already used massive
    force.

    <p>

    As has been pointed out above, people from all over the world were
    murdered. I hope the large casualty count doesn't numb use to the
    reality that every person killed was a father, son, mother, daughter.
    The war to be waged is on those responsible, and those who aid and
    abet them. The media in the USA has overstated nature of the enemy.
    But remember, their job is to sell ad's, not necessarily present all
    sides of the "truth."
     
  103. Bombing afghanistan now is useless as there is nothing left to be
    bombed: The Soviets did a good job in the past. Bombing the training
    camps of Bin Laden has already been done by the US...and it was easy
    as the US knew exactly where they were, because they were build by
    the CIA. A ground war from Pakistan is unlikely as it would
    destabilize Pakistan and weakened its border with India...and you
    could expect troubles, to say the least, in Kasmir. And do not forget
    that Pakistan and India are nuclear power! The only wise military
    solution would be to precisely locate Bin Laden, send a limited
    number of highly trained soldiers to capture him and leave
    Afghanistan immediately...but that is not likely this will happen
    that way. So the retrained of the US shows that the options are
    limited, that there are so far no evidence that Bin Laden is guilty,
    and even less evidence that a government is behind the attacks. So
    Lutz proposal make plenty of sense: help the people overcome their
    despair, their sense of no-future, and their feeling they have
    nothing to lose. We should have no illusion, responding to violence
    by violence will lead to more violence. Ariel Sharon wanted security
    before peace ... he got none of them.
     
  104. My list of missing (see above) is of course incomplete. My apologies
    to citizens of countries accidentally omitted from that report.
    Recent news reports now indicate citizens of at least 62 countries
    present in the list of 5,500+ missing persons. This is a tragedy for
    the entire world. Like many others, I too am heartened by the mostly
    moderate tone of the postings on this list. There is no reason why
    we should not all be able to live together in peace as citizens of
    Planet Earth. Amen!.......
     
  105. Amen, Amen Amen.
     
  106. Lieut. Ronald Kerwin NYFD Squad 288 is among the missing
    firefighters. Kerwin is also the Chief of the Levittown Volunteer
    Fire Department on Long Island. Please pray for his safe return. As
    of Sept.18, they have found signs of life in the rubble and hopefully
    more people will be found alive. Please pray for a miracle.
     
  107. In case you want to sign a petition for peace - I just did.
     
  108. Thanks Lutz, so did I.
    "give peace a chance"
     
  109. Me too. Thanks again for everything you have managed to do, Lutz.
     
  110. Well done Lutz! thank´z!
     
  111. I have done it too. Thanks, Lutz!
     
  112. I signed too, thanks for the link.

    <p>

    Now to some rather amazing news. The scenes with celebrating
    Palestinians were discussed above. Now the German magazine Stern have
    found out that the pictures were fabricated by a news team. Well, you
    may ask, was this an Israelic news team? No, it was a Palestinian
    news team! The Palestinian news team (who must have been complete
    idiots in this case) for some reason decided to fabricate news of
    celebrating Palestinians. So they handed out candy ("Kanafe") to
    people (kids, a woman who had walked 11 km to sell grapes, and
    others) and asked them to show signs of celebration. The journalist
    at Stern magazine was able to track down the woman in her rural
    village and asked her what she was celebrating in front of the
    camera. The answer: "I celebrated that I had been given Kanafe". She
    did at the time not know of the terror in USA.

    <p>

    The question now is, why did a Palestinian news team feel that it was
    a good idea to fabricate something like this (and draw Arafats rage
    upon themselves and the worlds astonished eyes on the Palestinian
    people)? The damage they did to their own people is huge, the images
    will remain in our minds for generations.
     
  113. Thanks for the insight provided, Peter! I had been wondering all the
    time why the cheerful "Palestinian" reaction that has been reproposed
    by television over and over again (re-echoing in the print media!)
    consisted of so little footage of just a handful of children. A
    dreadful lesson in the demagogic use and abuse of images. History
    teaches us that more than once wars were built upon lies and
    propaganda.
     
  114. First news I have of this fake; I just can´t belive this could
    happend, at the same time it is such a surprise.

    <p>

    One of the most shocking imagen of that day was an hospital like
    hall, with a big tv screen showing this images of people celebrating
    and beside this beds with injured people; and this in the news on
    CNN, enough reasons to demand a war and the strongest revange.

    <p>

    >History teaches us than more than once wars were build upon lies and
    propaganda< on this I can only agree with you Lutz.

    <p>

    Again what is the cost of a healthy economy, cultural diferences or
    economical similitudes*, this can explains me why here at a leica
    forum, where discusions are based on a basic system and the personal
    posibilities of each one on this small universe, makes us free into a
    media. Well hope I can explain my thougths.

    <p>

    *not sure if an english word or only spanish.
     
  115. First line should read >at the same time it is NOT such a surprise<
     
  116. "Similitudes" is indeed an English word. Have misplaced my Spanish
    dictionary and do not know if it is also a Spanish word. In English,
    it means "image, likeness, counterpart, etc.". It is an appropriate
    word for a Leica photographer to use. I think we, as photographers,
    share many common similitudes, no matter that we may live in
    different parts of the world. LB
     
  117. Regarding the footage of palestinian joy, I heard that CNN used 1991
    footage. See
    http://www.chicago.indymedia.org/front.php3?
    article_id=4395&group=webcast.

    <p>

    Less credible is a story in a newspaper in Finland that Israeli
    secret serive may have been involved in the attacks. I do not believe
    that but if we have some friends from Finland, they can tell us more
    about this newspaper. The link is :
    http://www.vaikuttava.net/article.php?sid=1112.
    I signed the petition. Thanks Lutz.
     
  118. The footage of the Palestinian celebration appears to be genuine.
    The rumour that it was a hoax is a hoax itself...

    <p>

    http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa091101aa.htm
     
  119. Angelique,
    <BR><BR>
    Thanks for keeping this thread alive. In my Swiss newspaper I read
    about the recent edition of The New Yorker, said to be
    most interesting as it publishes Magnum photos of the desaster and
    aftermath along with articles by American writers
    and intellectuals. Although the photos are critizied as being too
    beautiful for the occasion I would love to judge by myself.
    (This could even start a most interesting thread on the beauty of
    horror in news photography...) Since it seems to be most
    difficult to get hold of a copy here, could you try to get and save one
    for me? I would gladly cover the expense and
    shipment.
     
  120. Lutz: Sure. I will get a copy for you. On top, there is a great
    article by Susan Sontag that was first published in Le Monde. Here is
    the French text for those familiar with :

    <p>

    • MIS A JOUR LE 17.09.01 | 18h23
    POINT DE VUE
    Regardons la réalité en face, par Susan Sontag
    Pour une Américaine et New-Yorkaise épouvantée et triste, l'Amérique
    n'a jamais semblé être plus éloignée de la reconnaissance de la
    réalité qu'en face de la monstrueuse dose de réalité du mardi 11
    septembre.

    <p>

    Le fossé qui sépare ce qui s'est passé et ce qu'on doit en
    comprendre, d'une part, et la véritable duperie et les radotages
    satisfaits colportés par pratiquement tous les personnages de la vie
    publique américaine et les commentateurs de télévision, d'autre part,
    cette séparation est stupéfiante et déprimante.

    <p>

    Les voix autorisées à suivre les événements semblent s'être associées
    dans une campagne destinée à infantiliser le public. Qui a reconnu
    qu'il ne s'agissait pas d'une "lâche" agression contre
    la "civilisation" ou la "liberté", ou l'"humanité", ou encore
    le "monde libre", mais d'une agression contre les Etats-Unis, la
    superpuissance mondiale autoproclamée, une agression qui est la
    conséquence de certaines actions et de certains intérêts américains ?
    Combien d'Américains sont au courant de la poursuite des bombarde-
    ments américains en Irak ? Et puisque l'on emploie le
    mot "lâchement", ne devrait-on pas l'appliquer à ceux qui tuent hors
    du cadre des représailles, du haut du ciel, plutôt qu'à ceux qui
    acceptent de mourir pour en tuer d'autres ?

    <p>

    Quant au courage - une vertu moralement neutre -, quoi qu'on puisse
    dire de ceux qui ont perpétré le massacre de mardi, ce n'étaient pas
    des lâches.

    <p>

    Les dirigeants américains veulent absolument nous faire croire que
    tout va bien.

    L'Amérique n'a pas peur. Notre résolution n'est pas brisée. "Ils"
    seront pourchassés et punis (qui que soit ce "ils"). Nous avons un
    président-robot qui nous assure que l'Amérique a toujours la tête
    haute.

    <p>

    Tout un éventail de personnages publics, violemment opposés à la
    politique menée à l'étranger par cette administration, se sent
    apparemment libre de ne rien dire d'autre que : nous sommes tous unis
    derrière le président Bush.

    <p>

    On nous a affirmé que tout allait bien ou presque, même s'il
    s'agissait d'un jour qui resterait marqué par le sceau de l'infamie,
    et même si l'Amérique était maintenant en guerre. Pourtant, tout ne
    va pas bien. Et ce n'est pas Pearl Harbor. Il va falloir beaucoup
    réfléchir, peut-être le fait-on à Washington et ailleurs, sur le
    colossal échec de l'espionnage et du contre-espionnage américains,
    sur les choix possibles de la politique étrangère américaine, en
    particulier au Moyen-Orient, et sur ce qui constitue un programme de
    défense militaire intelligent.

    <p>

    Mais ceux qui occupent des fonctions officielles, ceux qui y aspirent
    et ceux qui en ont occupé autrefois ont décidé - avec la complicité
    volontaire des principaux médias - qu'on ne demanderait pas au public
    de porter une trop grande part du fardeau de la réalité. Les
    platitudes satisfaites et unanimement applaudies du Congrès d'un
    parti soviétique semblaient méprisables. L'unanimité de la rhétorique
    moralisatrice, destinée à masquer la réalité, débitée par les
    responsables américains et les médias au cours de ces derniers jours,
    est indigne d'une démocratie adulte.

    <p>

    Les responsables américains, et ceux qui voudraient le devenir, nous
    ont fait savoir qu'ils considèrent que leur tâche n'est qu'une
    manipulation : donner confiance et gérer la douleur. La politique, la
    politique d'une démocratie - qui entraîne des désaccords et qui
    encourage la sincérité - a été remplacée par la psychothérapie.
    Souffrons ensemble. Mais ne soyons pas stupides ensemble. Un peu de
    conscience historique peut nous aider à comprendre ce qui s'est
    exactement passé, et ce qui peut continuer à se passer.

    <p>

    "Notre pays est fort", ne cesse- t-on de nous répéter. Pour ma part,
    cela ne me console pas vraiment. Qui peut douter que l'Amérique soit
    forte ? Mais l'Amérique ne doit pas être que cela.

    <p>

    Susan Sontag est écrivain.Traduit de l'anglais (Etats-Unis) par Jean
    Guiloineau. © Susan Sontag.

    <p>

    • ARTICLE PARU DANS L'EDITION DU 18.09.01

    <p>

    You can access it also via www.lemonde.fr. The New York Times
    appreciates Susan Sontag and she publishes a lot in there. I was told
    the New York Times refused to publish this article (but again is it
    true, is it rumor?).
     
  121. The New Yorker : Unfortunately the New Yorker does not have a well
    developed web site and you will not find their articles and pictures.
     
  122. Ca fait presque 10 ans que je lis un article en francais. Et ecrit par Susan Sontag, en plus!
    If you'd like Sontag and others' thoughts in the NYer, click here
    BTW, the Mary Anne Weaver article on Bin Laden is quite interesting.
    A number of alternative websites and news outlets can be found on one of our local alternative weeklies.
    I certainly appreciate the non-US perspectives!
     
  123. Dear Forum Participants,
    It was inevitable, the seeping into our forum of differing political belief regarding the tragedy. Expressing sorrow, anger, or fear because of the tragedy is one thing, but expressing your belief in what to do about it is completely different and should not be posted to this forum. I don't mean to say that one way of thinking is correct and one is not because it's not my job to do that. The best thing I can do is repeat the words of one person who wrote to me privately: "This forum should be about Leica Photography...Enough is enough." and I really have to agree with that person.
    So while I do appreciate that everyone is angry, sad, nervous, and generally quite upset at this tragedy, I really do have to insist that we keep the topic on photography from now on.
    I really really really hope that you understand my position. If in case you do not and are angry at me for this, PLEASE write to me at rowlett@alaska.net and tell me.
    Thank you.
     
  124. Tony,
    <BR><BR>
    I don't know if you want to allow this post to be added to the thread I
    started ten days ago and which for obvious reasons appears to have been
    the one with the most active (and presumably passive) resonance so far.
    <BR><BR>
    I, too, have been contacted privately by the same member and if it is
    because of his intervention that the thread is to be closed down, I
    would like to answer him before that.
    <BR><BR>
    Dear fellow Leicaist,
    <BR><BR>
    I didn't mean to offend. I didn't mean to be "crude, stupid" nor did I
    mean to "dishonor the
    memories" of the victims of September 11th's attack.
    <BR><BR>
    When I started the thread minutes after the first news trickled into my
    conciousness it was because I
    was deeply shocked, as I wrote. I was reaching out across the ocean to
    grasp what was going on there,
    in the heads and hearts of fellow forum members in the States and all
    over the world. The thread
    has provided some sort of relief to me. And if my English is good
    enough for that to understand, it
    seems that I'm not the only one in this.
    <BR><BR>
    But with the shock still present, the political implications have
    started to become more evident and
    imminent. And, as sad as it is, their prospected consequences are going
    far beyond the lifes wasted
    last week. The revenge declared by president Bush and more or less
    heavy-heartedly supported by his
    allies is likely to cost much more souls - among allied as well as
    Eastern troops and civilians. And it
    would be amazingly naiv to hold that the upcoming military conflict was
    a purely national and not
    an international matter. 09/11th's death toll listed by one of the
    members clearly underlines that the
    attack inevitably meant and was looking for international conflict.
    <BR><BR>
    I agree that the nature of the inherent concern is not a Leica matter
    in the first degree, as I pointed
    out from the very start. Nevertheless, I highly appreciate the highly
    educated and informed level at
    which this thread has been evolving, maybe due to the generally more
    sophisticated knowledge and
    taste of Leicaists. Nobody is forced to read on and follow it, while
    everybody is free to contribute even
    the most contradictory informations, beliefs, concerns. Therefore I
    would regret if it was banned or
    closed down now. And on this occasion I wish to thank Tony and all of
    the forum members who
    have taken active and passive interest so far.
    <BR><BR>
    BTW, contributing a link to a petition that is imploring the heads of
    several national as well as
    international entities not to throw bombs on civilians, risking a
    nuclear war, but try to find more
    precise means to eradicate terrorism is not my definition of a "far
    left" political position, as you
    suggest.
    <BR><BR>
    Call it nonsense. But I strongly believe that whoever calls him- or
    herself a photographer should not
    close his eyes now. Nor ears, nor mouth.
    <BR><BR>
    Yours,
    Lutz
     
  125. I respectfully submit that:

    <p>

    1. No body is stopping conversation about photography.

    <p>

    2. The freedom we cherish encourages intelligent and respectful
    expression of different views and beliefs. This is what we have
    seen in good measure here.

    <p>

    3. This thread has addressed moderately and I believe respectfully one
    of the most important and tragic events in recent history in which
    many of my own countrymen died and which now involves the world
    community. It's sad if there are some who, for whatever reason, don't
    want others to "think beyond the square" of Leica photography in this
    forum at such a time.

    <p>

    5. I do not intend making any 'political' contributions but have been
    interested in the contributions of others. I would prefer we err on
    the side of allowing rather than limiting discussion.

    <p>

    6. In Tony Rowlett's rather well chosen and understandably emotional
    words: "Leica photography means a hell of a lot more than pressing a
    stupid button"
     
  126. [​IMG]
    Where have all the flowers gone? Long time passing. Where have all the flowers gone? Long time ago. Where have all the flowers gone? Young girls picked them, every one. Oh, when will they ever learn? Oh, when will they ever learn?
    -- Pete Seeger
     
  127. I must respond to Lutz, since he has chosen to make my private
    communication public. This will be my first and last comment on this
    particular thread.

    <p>

    Yes, I definitiely believe that you didn't mean to offend or
    dishonor. Perhaps the term "naive" would have been better. And
    Angelique, who quotes the work of Susan Sontag, surely does represent
    the extreme left. Make no mistake, Susan Sontag hates the USA and
    what it represents, but chooses to live here. Read up on her
    background.

    First of all, no one up to and including President Bush are
    suggesting targeting civilians with bombs. You are misrepresenting
    the position of the President, the Congress, the Department of
    Defense, and the vast vast majority of Americans. That would being
    us down to the level of the terrorists. However, these terrorists
    live among civilian populations purposely to avoid reprisals.
    Everything will be done to avoid civilian casualties, there will be a
    small number that is unavoidable. The governments that knowingly
    sponsor these terrorists, offer them support aid and comfort, and
    hide them among their own people should be the ones you address your
    letters to, not President Bush. Osama Bin Laden already has several
    outstanding indictments and international fugitive warrants (legal
    documents) for previous terrorist acts. The country that hides him
    (Afghanistan) has failed to honor these documents.

    Your idea about sending food and medical supplies to these countries
    in order to stop future terrorist acts is truly offensive, and very
    naive, though you probably didn't mean it that way. Now we know that
    over 6300 individuals were killed in the WTC attack. It greatly
    troubles and offends that you say we should bribe others not to
    become people that are purely evil. That is not the job of Americans
    or the US goverment. Providing for the needs of those people is the
    responsibility of their governments, who instead choose to support
    and enable terrorism. By the way, America sends out more foreign
    aid each year than every other nation in the world combined. It
    dishonors the memories of those that died in this horrendous attack
    to say that our response should be to send aid to the places fromwhen
    they came. I for one would absolutely refuse to have my tax dollars
    sent to governments that sponsor and hide terrorists. I believe that
    the vast majority of Americans think the same way.

    And it is naive in the extreme to believe that these attacks occurred
    simply because other peoples are poor. Osama Bin Laden himself is a
    billionaire former Saudi prince The information is now coming out
    that many of the people in the US involved in these attacks were
    middle class Americans. No, we were attacked not because of poverty,
    but because the people who did this hate America, hate Western
    values, and hate the freedom we enjoy here. It is hatred of the US
    and the Western world in general that is the basis for the attacks.

    These terrorists (at least the planners) are truly cowards. They
    hide among innocent civilians to avoid reprisals. They attack
    innocent people who can't defend themselves. Notice that they do not
    attack our military forces, who can and will fight back, but they
    instead attack buildingsof helpless people. When they did attack a
    military target, it was a barracks of sleeping soldiers.

    <p>

    Finally, President Bush never used the term "revenge" as you state.
    he has used words like "justice" and "freedom will be defended". How
    dare you put words into the President's mouth. If you must describe
    what he said, do it correctly.

    <p>

    This is precisely the reason I believe this thread should be shut
    off. People have very strong views about this subject, which has
    absoultely nothing to do with Leica.
     
  128. My concern comes from the fact that after a while it is nearly
    impossible to keep from expressing ONLY sadness, anger, and all of our
    necessary emotions. Political views are simply bound to enter the
    discussion. The possibility of such views driving away participants
    who might become deeply offended on account of them, but who might
    otherwise be active with - and helpful to - the forum, I think is too
    immediate.
    <p>
    The title of the thread is "I'm Deeply Shocked." I think it is
    appropriate to discuss ones emotions on the forum, but I feel that
    offering a "route" for the world or for the United States to take is
    not appropriate no matter how obscure any such reference is (in only
    one thread, for example) and no matter how politically "correct" it
    may seem.
    <p>
    As has been pointed out, the Leica Photography culture is diverse and
    extends into many nations. A forum called "The U.S. Military" or
    "Republicans for Response" or even "I Love Barbie Dolls," would be
    better for political discussion.
    <p>
    What I'm trying to prevent from happening has happened in the past to
    an ugly degree in many other forums and lists on a variety of
    subjects, not just our recent tragedy.
     
  129. Eliot,
    If having a open and critical attitude towards this "war" is
    considered to be far left then so be it, but then even conservative
    newspapers or magazines (Financial Times and The Economist to cite
    two ) have become far left publication. Their editorial, as in many
    subjects they cover, offer a wider and historical perspective to
    these tragic and disgusting events. It is far too easy to dismiss
    others' viewpoint as far left, communist or whatever, just because
    you disagree. Susan's article offers her own perspective and quoting
    it foster reactions and new ideas. We came on Susan s paper when
    discussing some pictures published in the latest New Yorker (which is
    certainly a far left magazine...) but I could give other links to
    critical articles in the above mentioned magazines (on the role of
    the US in the development and support of Islamic regimes like the
    Taliban, on how best to respond to these terrorists, on the geo
    political consequences of any military actions, etc...). To respect
    Tony's wishes this is my last post on this thread. Eliot, before
    making bold public statement on other members (and on myself) of this
    forum, try to know them better. Your desire to shut off the
    discussion is excessive: if you care and disagree let us know, if you
    do not care, do not read it.
     
  130. For the last ten days we haven´t seen other thing on the news, and
    this has been for me the most interesting place to talk about it; for
    this I thank Lutz and Tony again; and I´m with you Angelique.
    Nice politics talk folks, thank´s.
     

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