i want to buy a littman camera

Discussion in 'Large Format' started by jean_arthens, Aug 7, 2006.

  1. having sifted through previous posts on the subject, i really hesitated whether
    to post this question. but i will do it anyway.

    money notwithstanding (i really think that prices are ok, if this thing works),
    do you people at photonet -knowledgeable owners please- think it is worth
    buying? i'm a leica user, but i love the detail of a 4x5 neg. i'm also a field
    4x5 camera user, but i love the speed allowed by a rangefinder. the littman
    would combine both. and for the kind of work i intend to do with it -candid
    portraiture without any help from assistants-, in theory it would be the perfect
    camera to buy.

    specifically: i have seen some concerns expressed over the flash synchro, and
    also over the depth of field. i would really like to hear if any owner has had
    any problems with these. the flash synchro, and the hot shoe would be really
    important features.

    [my initial hesitations (about posting this question) were due to the tiring
    debates i have come across between william littman himself and some of his
    detractors, on every single post where a littman camera has been discussed. i am
    interested in littman's cameras and i'm interested in the opinion of real
    owners. and i am not interested in littman's comments (who will obviously defend
    his product), or the comments of people who just love to poke fun at littman.
    these two latter categories of photonet users (littman himself, and littman
    haters) please refrain.]
  2. Hi Jean Being a new Littman owner and user I can tell you that it was a wild ride getting to the decision to buy one. I also read the barrage of responses to the camera and i also did some ground work like renting the camera and trying it out for a couple of days. I will say this muchif 4x5 is what you are trying to move towards, it is a camera worth getting. I am also a leica, hassy, and rollei user. I like all my cameras but I have also learnt that only you can decide on what camera to get and what lens to get with it. It is your vision and your eye. I have found that some of these guys that open their mouths about Littman are haters, old farts who have not shot a good picture since WW1. There are others who can guide you through positive criticism as to what you should expect when you ask William to build you one of his cameras. I did and now William has modified some of his newer cameras to appease those people who would like a stronger more robust camera. I have not had a lot of experience with the flash synchro on the camera, but the depth of field is very good. I hope I helped. And to tell you the truth, email William, he is a cool cat to chat with when you get pass his defenses:) Radcliffe www.royephotography.com
  3. thanks, radcliffe. and i LOVED the single mom picture! but switching to technical mode: that's exactly the kind of sharpness and definition i'm after. was this a 150mm lens camera?
  4. Much energy seems to be outgassed by young farters who want to spend alot of energy passing gas; talking about copyright, patents, instead of actually shooting 4x5 film.<BR><BR>To some of us who modified Polaroids eons ago the L camera seems expensive.; It may no to you. <BR><BR>One could if thrifty buy two Speed graphics, an Omega D, Componon and 1000 bucks worth of film and lenses for what an L camera costs new.<BR><BR>The L cheerleaders like to down play folks who came from modest means, experimented with modifiying Polaroids decades ago. Threads about 1/2 century old Polaroid's being used for 4x5 seem to bring out the "experimenter haters" sometimes. This is god damn insulting to folks who kludged up old Polaroids using ideas from magazines, and used WW2 surplus tri-x for film. Maybe folks who inherited a trust fund love to attack any prior Polaroid modification. <BR><BR> Its hard to understand the hatred folks have with attacking experimentation, or past "can do" build your own tools. The entire world wasnt born with a silver spoon in ones mouth, a trust fund, or daddy buying one a camera that costs several grand. <BR><BR>Much of Photographic tools long ago was made from surplus parts, hard work, craftsmanship, junk or war surplus gear. Its NOT that the new kid on the blocks several thousand dollar L camera is hated; its the anti experimenter, anti old Yankee "lets build it ourself" dogma, the all CAPS BS threats, the young fart "I was first" BS. Its like saying AL Gore invented the internet, insulting and BS.<BR><BR><BR><BR>The pickle to you is whether the L camera is worth the money for its performance, not others quest to quash past history.. There are other cameras like this too that cost less. If it gets mentioned, L popps up and the thread morphs into more mud slinging.<BR><BR>Using 4x5 is today slower than long ago when we had film pack, asa 1200 films, new Grafmatics, BIG 50B flashbulbs, focus spot. Ortho was fun do develop by inspection. Experimention was encouraged. $x5 ws once mostly a fast press and sports camera, not as much for static stuff.<BR><BR> If anything some young folks today are the "old fart" ones since they have rigid mindsets, are afraid to experiment, they worry about spots and fungus on lenses. <BR><BR>Folks are not going to be creative with all this negative energy spent on blasting old Yankee experimentation.<BR><BR>Real questions should be like hows does an L camera's fronts lens boards positional consistancy compare to a speed graphic, of a lame folder with the usual lens abit tilted. Real world things liek this seem not to get mentioned in the slinging process. Many LF cameras only have a +/- 0.007 tolerance in GG to film, this can be WAY less that the error in a WW2 620 medalist a 6x9cm camera.<BR><BR>You should find a way to rent or handle the L camera, if you think it meets your goals. Then there will be no surprises if you buy one. Mr L should show is camera more/some at trade shows and let the public see his wares.
  5. any other owners of the littman camera out there to address my very specific questions? and, if possible, to avoid meaningless confrontations with non-owners?
  6. Hi Jean
    Yes that was a 150mm Rodenstock lens. I actually ordered the same lens for the Littman.
    And truthfully, if you want an L camera, let it be because it is going to make you and your
    work better and not because some young gasser like myself talked you into it.
    It Littman was making that camera for 10K it is still up to the buyer to chuck down their
    hard earn money and buy it. William is not going to rob you on the street or over the
    internet for you to use his camera. I really don't get it. How can you tell a man what he is
    worth--or the product he builds with his fingers. I can see if he had it coming off the
    assembly line then we could talk.
    So Jean, what ever you decide be happy
  7. Depth of field is a function of film size, focal length and aperture. Ther is no difference in that respect between Littmann's and anyone else's cameras.

    On th other hand I find the price for Littmanns cameras a little stiff. Especially compared to the Speed Graphic I bought last month for $56, with rangefinder and a working film plane shutter...
  8. I write from Italy and I do not speak a very good english.

    A friend of mine showed me his Littman and I really loved it, love at first sight.

    So, after spending months asking around on the web about these cameras I finally decided
    to purchase a Littman camera one year ago, and I like it very much.

    It is light, really easy to carry.
    And easy to work with (the view/rangefinder is a lot brighter than the original Polaroid)
    I have a couple of Grafmatics, and they are perfect for this camera.
    My camera fits the improved version of the 127 Rodenstock Ysarex lens.
    It is a sharp lens, even sharper with the Littman improvement.

    I suggest you to ask about a camera with a new Copal shutter (so flash synchro, smooth
    shutter...), even in the case you choose a 127 Ysarex.

    I tested it taking pictures of landscapes, and I was really impressed by the quality.
    Now I use it for my usual weird still lives.

  9. Kelly, mega-dittos. I call the silver spoon people the "E" generation, E = entitlelment.
  10. I believe the original quesion wasn't "how much money do you make" or "were you a trust fund baby" or "what's wrong with this generation" it was "do you like the camera."

    I have one and I like it a lot. I don't use the flash sync so I can't comment on that. The depth of field as has been mentioned seems just the same as my Linhof.

    I have the 150 lens and use grafmatic backs. Very cool camera, does what it is advertised to do, and works like a charm.

  11. Thanks Michael for that answer.
    I think that your words embody the idea of what I was trying to get at. I am from Jamaica,
    from a working class family there too. I came here and through various jobs, some of
    them lucky charms, found a way to work, pay my bills and afford a little of the equipment
    that I either use regularly on a job or am just infatuated with. Leicas for one--maan, I did
    a cart wheel when I found them but after a while it becomes less about the money and
    more about what works for you. I bought a rollei wide a year and a half ago, spent $4500
    and wish I had instead bought the Littman instead of now buying another $5K camera in
    less than two years. But the thing is, I sold almost all my leicas to be able to afford the
    Littman so I did not break open my Rockerfeller Trust Fund :) As photogs, we do what we
    have to do to take pictures or afford the toys we want. Let me repeat, to take pictures; not
    sit on a computer and criticize other photogs when they are only trying to do what you are
    not doing.
    So Michael, again I thank you for your words. It could not have been said more directly
    and eloquently.:)
  12. Hi Jean,

    I've been an owner of the Littman for over 5 years. I've owned 2 of them. One of which flew
    off my scooter and never to be seen again. I was so distraught that I had to get another.
    The main reason I got it is because of it's portability. I carry it everywhere along with a
    pack of 4x5 polaroid film and easily fits in a small discrete, non photo looking, shoulder
    bag. No other 4x5 camera, including a Graflex offer that kind of portability, easy of use,
    and speed that the L camera offers. That is the price you pay for that uniqueness. I didn't
    care for sharpness as I mainly just shoot 4x5 polaroids, so I opted for the 127mm Ysarex
    lens. I don't use strobe either. The other great thing about it are the frame lines are damn
    acurate. I own a plethora of other cameras, including all the manual Polaroids, Konica
    Instapress, Rolleis, Panoramics.... but non give me more joy to use than the Littman... I
    love it.

    Good luck!
    Sebastian Kim
  13. thanx to all littman owners for your contributions so far and for your encouragement (it's a serious plunge, deciding to spend in the vicinity of four grand). is there anyone who has actually used the camera with strobes?
  14. I am the owner of 4x5 Polaroid conversions -- one I took to Rome and Venice recently, the other is undergoing conversion at the moment with a 150mm lens instead of the Ysarex lens.

    Armed with a couple of Grafmatics and a lightmeter, you're set to go with "snapshot" 4x5 quality.

    Frankly, these are great for handheld 4x5 but there's just no way that the price for the L is justified IMHO. People have been building these for generations and you can find more than a few people doing the conversions today.
  15. Another person who has modified the Polaroid 110 cameras for use with 4x5 film is a guy who goes by the name "razzeldog". Check out one of his cameras for sale on Ebay right now, the auction number is 290015854304. He also has a webpage at...

  16. Re: Sheldon's post

    Dean is also a "Cool Cat" :)
  17. Hi Jean,
    I've owned a Littman for over a year now. I was photographing with a 4X5 view camera on
    a tripod for a long time and really wanted a more fluid approach without sacrificing any
    quality. Coming from a Leica background, I tried medium format rangefinders with some
    success but what I was really looking for was a handholdable solution to complement the
    quality I get with my tripod-mounted Arca Swiss and modern lenses. I was NOT looking
    for an old press camera or some converted old Polaroid to play around with. I make very
    large C-prints and I wanted to show my handheld and tripod-shot work together and
    maintain a consistency in color, sharpness and clarity. A Linhof Technika might have been
    a solution but I never enjoyed using one handheld.

    Even though the Littman 45 Single uses an old Polaroid 110b as a foundation, William
    does do some work to the viewing/focusing system to make it as accurate as possible.
    That is the main reason I chose this camera. The framelines are right on. I often shoot
    wide open at f5.6 and my plane of focus is exactly where I want it.

    My camera has a 135 ApoSironar lens in a Copal shutter. I opted for this lens because I
    wanted a modern Rodenstock and a reliable shutter. I'm sure the original lens in the
    Prontor shutter is fine but I use flash a lot and so I wanted to forgo any possible sync
    issues with the old shutter. I believe William offers a Copal shutter option with any of the
    older lenses so if flash sync is important to you I recommend going that way.

    I use either a Vivitar 283 or a Norman head, diffused, mounted on a FlashFrame FF301
    flash bracket. This setup suits me when I need to work as light and as conveniently as
    possible (for example on-the-street). Otherwise I'll set up a couple of strobes and
    umbrellas on stands when I can manage that. Synchronization is either via Paramount
    sync cord or Microsync.

    Depth-of-field is always an issue with large format photography, regardless of what
    camera you use. You need to know how to deal with it. Often, shallow depth-of-field
    works for my photographs and the Littman's accurate focusing allows me to control what
    little depth-of-field my lens provides wide open. If I need most everything in focus I shoot
    at F16 or more and I better have enough light to deal with that. If it's not available then
    bring it with you.

    There is only one color film available above ISO160 and that is Kodak Portra 400NC.
    Fortunately it is excellent and scans beautifully. I just wish we had more choices in 4X5
    color sheet film (4X5 Fuji NPZ would be a dream to use).

    Yeah, it's an expensive camera. Believe me if I could've acquired this kind of tool for less
    money, I would have. It took me almost two years to save up for this purchase.
    Regardless of all the arguments regarding intellectual property,
    cheap modifications, pricing, scamming, insulting, etcetera, the other modified Polaroids
    simply do not perform at this level. I've tried some and without a doubt they are fun to
    use and can make decent small prints, but they are clunky performers and unlike the
    Littman they simply cannot rival the quality of a good 4X5 view camera. As usual, you get
    what you pay for, and the cheaper cameras are OK but some of them claim to rival the
    Littman and that simply is not true.

    If you do not need this kind of quality then save your money. The Littman 45 Single is not
    for everyone. It is a very idiosyncratic photographic tool. But if what I have written above
    is what you are looking for then the Littman is the only game in town and is definitely
    worth the price.
  18. Very nice shot Ruddy.
  19. carlos: thanks for taking the time. this was the kind of useful comment i was looking for when i started this thread. thanks again. your pic reminds me of martin parr (his new brighton series). cheers!
  20. Jean,
    You really should try and rent or borrow one before you buy. It won't be as fast to use as a Leica, even with a grafmatic, so you will lose some of the fluidity that a 35mm RF offers. i.e. you can't just leave it up at eye level and keep shooting.

    The combined RF/VF will be easier to use than a Technika or a Super Graphic, but you lose the ability to change lenses. If you regularly swap lenses on your Leica you may want to think hard about that.

    Some of the lens options require you to remove the front element to close the camera.

    You'll need the portrait version to focus down to 4 feet, otherwise it is 6 feet minimum (The Speed Graphic RF is accurate to 4 feet). Remember, these are slightly wide to normal lenses so you may run into trouble with tight headshots.

    For shooting portraits on the street the combination of the RF/VF and light weight would make it the preferred tool. If you were just shooting streetscapes then something like a Fotoman 45 would be a better bet. If you were shooting at one location then a Technika or even a Graflex SLR would do a better job. The Littman 45 is a one trick pony, but if that is the trick you want then go get it.
  21. Thank you, Jean. Very kind of you.
    Paul's comments are appropriate but as you can see all the cameras that he mentions have
    their strengths and weaknesses. You have to choose the appropriate tool for the kind of
    photography you want to do. The Littman is a one-lens camera so you have to choose
    that optic when you order the camera. Most people wisely choose the original Ysarex lens.
    Not only is it more convenient to use because you do not have to remove the front
    element to close the camera, but after seeing some work done with it, the lens quality
    looks pretty fantastic. I do not regret my lens choice at all but I'm probably sacrificing a
    lot of convenience for a little better performance. It's worth it to me but it's just a
    personal choice, and certainly not necessary to achieve great results. The most important
    thing to me is that using my handheld camera is as accurate as using my view camera.
    You may be able to acheive that with some of Paul's suggestions but the Littman handles a
    lot better than the others (except the Leica, of course, but it's no 4X5!). Good luck with
    your decision.
  22. d_g


    considering the cost of film, and the fact that is getting more and more difficult to take an
    airplane with a box of sheet film... and considering also the problem with dust in holders,
    if i was looking for the best hand held camera possible, i will definetly go for the alpa !
    have a look at their web site... www.alpa.ch
    on the top of it, it will be an excellent camera to attach a digital back later on !
  23. 'Regardless of all the arguments regarding intellectual property, cheap modifications, pricing, scamming, insulting, etcetera, the other modified Polaroids simply do not perform at this level' Fortunately Carlos, some perform at a similar level only for a more realistic price. The camera remains a mere Polaroid after all is said and done. To state that the alternatives 'simply do not perform at this level' is misleading.
  24. ok, here we go again... dean: very funny, but i've already read all of your boring debates with littman on about a thousand threads.

    thanks EVERYBODY for the input. carlos: excellent! any other littman shooters have examples to show? ruddy: another pic, please. or two. or three. come on. i have visited your site but mostly i came across rollei portraits. or so i thought.
    DG: well, but i love sheet film. alpa looks good, and i have a book by magnum photographer raymond depardon ("errance") where you can see its incredible quality. but it's not what i'm after. perhaps when i am filthy rich and decide to change my mamiya 7...
  25. I don't know why my orginal post was deleted. I have recently tested a few (5)handheld 4x5 format cameras for field work. Among them is the Littman that I do own. I did this for an upcoming article for a photo magazine. As to portability it is a breeze to use. It is compact, and light enough to place in a tamerac fanny pack and still have room for a couple of grafmatic backs. I also use single load sheet film holders with it. I've taken all the cameras tested into some rough country doing such things as repelling down 75 foot cliffs. Some preformed better than others, and some not as well as hoped for. The Littman held up beautifully. I too have the 150mm lens, and Find that it is a great combination. The depth of field has been great with the Littman. Of course there are ways to enhance that no matter the camera. The flash I have not personally used, but a friend of mine who did have a flash that would attach, used his, and was well pleased with it. It's built rock solid, with care given to the proper engineering of an after market camera. Where more solid parts are needed to replace lenses to a higher quality lens, they are manufacturered and out of solid materils not flimsy cheaper materials. Littman stands behind his products and cares enough to periodically contact you to trouble shoot before anything might arise. That is rare in today's world.
  26. Agnes:

    Thank you for mentioning that you have field tested five handheld 4x5 format cameras. For the benefit of all, could you please identify each one by its manufacturer�s name? This is important, you are the first person that has done such an evaluation Actually, yours is the type of evaluation that we have all been waiting for. Could you also please publish the performance ratings of all the cameras and the testing criteria by which these have been evaluated. Note: Rappelling down a 75 foot cliff is not a test of camera capability. As an example, a test criterion would be the resistance to shock, temperature extremes, capability to maintain alignment of front standard and film plane after undergoing defined environmental stresses and many other tests performed.

    To point out, and as far as I know, DOF is not a variable dependent on the manufacturer of the camera, it is dependent on the design of the lens. All lenses, of the same focal length will exhibit similar DOF, depending on the lens optical values that have been chosen, not on the manufacturer of the camera, these do not vary immensely, the optical design values. If, you know of any way of enhancing a lens DOF, please let us know, this will of great use to all. If this can be done, no matter the camera, as you state, it will be an improvement of the situation.

    The aforementioned camera is based on Polaroid�s design of the early sixties. This model was called the 110, and there were several versions of it, the 110A and 110B among others. The body of the camera is very solidly built out of aluminum alloy. The pivots of all the joining members are made out of steel rivets, giving a fine tolerance to all the rotating joints. This does not make for a lightweight camera.

    Also and quite amazingly, these cameras can be purchased today in perfectly functioning condition requiring no servicing or troubleshooting. These bodies are the basis for the modifications that have been performed lately. Why do these cameras need troubleshooting when they have been performing fine for the last 40 years or so? If you have had some adjustments or troubleshooting with your camera, could you please indicate their nature. Does your camera of this type need periodic adjustment or alignment? This is another evaluation criterion.

    You state that: �Where more solid parts are needed to replace lenses to a higher quality lens, they are manufacturered and out of solid materils not flimsy cheaper materials.� This needs more clarification as the ideas in this sentence are confusing. Are solid parts inserted into lenses to make them of a higher quality, or does this refer to complete replacement of lenses with associated ancillaries such as shutters and lens caps? I am sorry, but I could not understand the underlying idea expressed here. It is maybe clear to others, but not to me, could you please clarify?

    Your field testing of the several handheld cameras is extremely important to all of us. This thread is addressing the same subject. The author has a desire to find information on performance and capabilities of a certain camera. The only thing that we got here are 4x5 photographs, this only indicates the results of a specific lens used in conjunction with a specific film, not the capability of a camera.
  27. Considering that no two types of 4x5 film holders produce the same size image, nor are they aligned exactly to the same center, any claims that the framing lines are 'right on' are dubious. The difference in the diagonal of the image from a Grafmatic and a Polaroid 545 is a whopping 8 millimeters.
    I don't mean to be 'boring', I'm just trying to prevent you from making an expensive mistake.
    When I format expand a Polaroid 110 series camera with my new LowProfile back , I align it to the Polaroid 550 back, which seems to me to have the best alignment of all the film holders.
    And, you'll notice, I build in a modern hot shoe.
    I don't understand what all the fuss is about flash synch with the Prontor shutter. You can't possibly buy a better shutter that will last longer than the Prontor shutter that comes with the Polaroid 110B, unless you are supplied with a defective one that hasn't been repaired properly.
    The idea of replacing a Prontor shutter with a Copal shutter is comparable to putting a two-stroke chain saw motor into a Mercedes.
  28. Sorry Jean, I wasn`t trying to be funny...... guess I was surprised that after reading all those 'boring' threads, you could ever contemplate the decision expressed in the title of this one..... Maybe you should read them all again?
  29. Well well Lee Hamiel
    To tell you the truth, I have been reading various Photo.net threads over the course of a
    year and a half since buying a Toyo field camera. I read almost everything that was ever
    written about choosing lens and deciding whether to buy the AX or the All And even
    before purchasing my Littman, I read the ten million comments that were made and
    refused to join in then because I was still trying to make up my mind about the camera
    and not listen to the diatribe that was been spewed at the time.. It all came down to the
    ALPA and the Littman and I chose the Littman because my countryman Walter Chin, a hard
    working photographer who was not given a silver spoon when he was growing as a
    photographer in New york uses one, and a great friend of mine Beth Keiser who I met at
    the Associated Press in New York encouraged me to trust William with my camera. Now I
    am writing because you addressed me as an "it" in your thread. I do not know who you are
    but I would like to know what kind of photographer would go to this much length to
    discredit, desecrate, and devalue a fellow peer by using "it" to tarnish a persons image.
    I have a website, I am a father and I am a man. My name is Radcliffe Leopold Roye, I was
    born on December 12, 1969 in a small hospital in Montego Bay, Jamaica.
    I have my own voice and vision as a photographer and I am no "it"
  30. You seem convinced of the goodness of Littman's conversion, Jean, so buy already and tell us how you like it.

    For the rest of us poor shmoes who cannot afford Littman's cameras, I guess Noah's, Dean's or Mike's conversions are more than good enough.
  31. You think I don`t get heaps from locals when my namesake states that
    'The terrorist just made another run'? Even our Prime Minister is in on it, saying that he likes Dean Jones on tonight`s News and what happened was unfortunate. I think that what was stated was in no way meant in a demeaning way and was a similar slip. In this awful time of terrorism, mayhem, war and killing, too many guys seem to get the wrong end of the stick, get an attitude and then get mad. Wouldn`t it be nice if everyone got along? Ruddy, after checking out your site I see you have some great images and you are to be commended for your efforts.
    Personally I don`t give a hoot who uses what camera and when, just lets get it together as lovers of fine photography and stop bickering.
    It has been my experience that a crap camera can give a great result in the hands of the right person and a great camera does not make a fine photographer.
    As a kid I played in a band, had a jerkoff idea that a better guitar would improve my playing.........it didn`t, I was still crap.
    I`ve bought expensive cameras hoping my photography would improve......it hasn`t.
    I`ve seen guys armed with a LOMO do better than I can do with a Linhof. Ruddy, your post prompted me to check out your site, interesting stuff, a lot of Blad, perhaps you could show a little more Littman?
  32. I'd like to point out that Mr. Rowe was not addressing people plugging products as he did not expect them or their buddies to show up and antagonize him after the owner of photo.net has clearly stated

    "Brian Mottershead , aug 05, 2003; 10:07 a.m.
    the Terms of Use state that forums aren't to be used for classified ads or for commercially-oriented postings. "
    " the non-commercialism policy is not one of the things that is left "up" to the forum participants or moderators. "

    No Soliciting
    You agree not to use the Site, other than the Classifieds section of the Site, to advertise products or services or to solicit anyone to buy or sell products or services

    Furthermore Jones insists that getting a better camera would make no difference to his photography but has spent the last 3 years belittling the opinions of the most qualified, the most renowned photographers and the magazine reviews and is holding the podium here by strong arm tactics with the aid of a few members admitting to receive diy tips in exchange for safeharbor.

    The point is that this website offers freedom of expression to its members under specific terms, solicitation does not qualify within these terms and people posing as " us" while all their opinions , grievances and actions are undoubtedly commercial in nature is a scam.

    Whether your neighbor will be happy for or resort to discouragement because you have a better car is a risk we all take and as far as I'm concerned some here have not sided with my product and it is their opinion, I'm not going to defend my product but remind all that it has been under attack by people who admit they could not take a better picture with better equipment and on the other hand have annoyed everyone in PN for 3+ years speaking of products being equal, no different or that they outperform. Neither of these three standings can be established by someone saying that a better camera will not be an aid for better pictures, surely I have shot for Vogue with a Kodak disposable but have obtained different or better results with different equipment.

    The ensuing dismissal of standings alleged to be originating on a silver spoon coupled with the admission that no matter what camera the results are similar or without improvement shows everyone the origin of this stubborn disbelief in the value of subtle differences which can yield to a camera being less in the way for pro and novice alike.

    Surely Mr. Jones is not the only one who has verified that getting a better camera would not make a difference but he has spent the last three years barking at everyone speaking of differentiation when in regards to performance he admits differences present when he says the camera " was better" made no difference". Then when plugging his own product insisting it is no different we know where that is coming from and how to value his opinion.

    Mr. jean who I don't know dared to try PN and as everyone else finds that debates by people insisting that a better camera produces the same results in their hands than a lesser camera but spend years barking at the standing of competitors and when those who were enticed by Jones and Schwartz come here and say they have tried their products and mine and prefer mine they then assure everyone to have the expertise to dispute that and harass them further and humiliate them.

    Carlos bought one of Schwartz cameras out of eBay and chose mine after trying his but regardless of choice by an individual the shutter on that camera could use some help it is a prontor svs, an amateur version which is ok but will require more service and cla than a copal.

    there are other businesses such as SKG and others which are flooded daily by request to transfer the aperture scales to copal shutters because the old clunkers are ok but fail more often, it is unfair to business in general to allow a few to solicit here,

    I really tried to help PN members by giving advice which does not benefit me financially but in the end I was chased out at each turn by people trying to solicit business for themselves as in

    So I came to the realization that I can still consider myself as " us" in the sense that I am a fellow photographer but regarding my participation in these threads I'm not " us" because I sell a product and they are not " us" either, these people cannot continue to be allowed to pose as " users" because the bulk of their actions within PN amounts to solicitation, instigation and defamation as a means of solicitation. when all fails you can always use a few alarming headline style keywords hoping to attract further attention as they seem to believe there is no such thing as bad publicity.

    In the end what remains is that people offering products and services are allowed to not only use the podium but retain it thru strong arm tactics, You see that their supporters will speak of " poor judgment" but then tell you"At first glance when this thread started - I had a feeling that it was a shameless self promotional plug albeit under a different name. "

    If you notice" their friends are resorting to"shameless self promotional plug albeit under their own names" but that is ok. it isn't..

    If this website will chase out newcomers and seasoned members will act a la Statler and waldorf telling people " you just joined and you already want to buy one?" they are delusional nobody buys my camera because of what they read in PN, people only get discouraged By Jones and co. and now that we have confirmed that a better camera would make no difference in his hands I take this opportunity to apologize that you have been annoyed by these people for this long but as you can see it was not justified.

    Im sorry these people will try anything, the last time around it came down to the religious origin of a name and quite frankly I don't know if these people are speaking about conversion circumcision or religion and this time around you are required to have been around for a period of time and your name must be " Land".

    I hope these people land, jean asking haters to refrain sounds like a contradiction in itself but note he also tells me to put a lid on it and quite frankly if more isn't known about my product is because a lot is public domain in the opinions of the best who continue to embrace it, when that is undermined by the ensuing attacks on standings by Jones and co. then Jean comes here wanting a tangible= real contact with such standing and when it arrives these people and their palsy has to go ballistic telling them to go shove their enthusiasm you know where because if you come here you sign up for a multiple dose of plunger and you will be discouraged, if not today they will be back every day until you are pleading to sign anything just so you can retain your will to live. Trust me it has happened to me for 3 years and I don't wish that upon my clients, so thanks for what makes people feel that you are my friends. That is the way I truly feel about all of you and hopefully this website will enforce its policy and regain integrity and we can have some time so that the friendship can flourish and I have more time to give you better service
    I apologize to my clients for the abuse they have had to endure and hope this website is free from the claws of solicitation. a few of my clients have sold their cameras used for more than they paid for, many want to gel more but few want to sell theirs. I have already taken the steps required to ensure that is the case in what concerns my interests

  33. Mr. Litman:

    It happens that I speak and write the identical languages as you do, all day long. In the writing of these languages, punctuation and capitalization of letters is a norm of orthography. Moreover, if you happen to be fully fluent both in speaking and writing in French, you must know that this is insisted on; you must know that this equally applies to Spanish.

    It is not that some are trying to find typos. I may remind you that good writing is a measure of good thinking. The point here is that an assertive evaluation of all the claims is to be done at some point.

    Well, as this thread states, these cameras are made of parts from other cameras, so is mine. I did not change anything to the internals of the Zeiss Rangefinder, you claim that you did something to yours. Wouldn�t it be reasonable for you to explain what modification you have done so that this RF and lens synergy increases the DOF of the camera? Or is it all gibberish and dribble? You stated last time that I come to prove the accuracy of my RF in court. I do not have anything to prove, since I did not change anything to the Zeiss design.

    Some other writer claims in this thread that the DOF of the camera is improved??? Another writer goes rappelling with this "brick", luckily nothing happened to both. Others post photographs, stated to be taken with your camera. Without the results of an evaluation, these photographs show nothing more than images taken with a 4x5 lens and film combination. What are then the parameters that comprise the synergy that you claim? This is what we are asking. What is the famed quadrangulation that you have formula calculated and incorporated in your design? Will you be able to produce an answer someday?

    There is no mockery, nor there is fun to be poked at someone as well as the repeated plunger operation that you refer to. What we all would like to know is what are the specifications and capabilities of your product. You have not provided any answer as of yet towards that.

    All you state is repeated commercial claims against IP and patent infringement of your product. Well, you better get off that horse, because it is you that will have to do some explanation as to the meaning and contents of your patent, which, by the way, does not cover any aspect of my conversion. Additionnaly, your trying to impede discussions of camera parameters is contrary to the nature of the discussions in this forums.

    If you read the forum carefully, people are asking all the time for advice and precisions on performance of different cameras. As a coincidence, every single time that something is asked regarding your product, your dribble impedes all discussion with your obsession on merchandise advertising and defamation of products.

    Your product has not been berated, your product, as you state, has some very obscure properties which are a mystery to everyone. As an example; the fabled synergy or all components as a whole, not to forget the other gibberish regarding the new lens design that has the DOF reversed behind the rear lens element and the useless ergonomic claim of the famous red button.

    Would you at once explain these properties of your product. We are all baffled by its magic capabilities that do not conform with what reality shows. Believe me, this will end all controversy, questions and will settle the claims once and for all.

    Will you be amenable to offer a sample of your product for independent evaluation so that all this controversy will be over. This is the nature of the initial question of this thread, suggestions for a choice, not a coalition of Dean et al. to impede your commercial success or defamate your image.
  34. I don't know if Jean is from France but as he or she mentioned Raymond departing who is French and also happens to be my client I assumed this would be the case. Now I also don't know if Jean is a man or a woman but seeing the way you guys treat women around here I was kind of hoping she would be a man after Jones once told aggie that it would help if male photographers evaluated her camera because she was a 'Woman".

    Then Mr. Bhathal machined gun her with requests for info and disputing her right to choose and finally the fact remains that materials pertaining to editorial " to be published" are considered confidential/ under embargo until published and questioning her choice pending disclosure of such data puts her in a position you either violate her privacy or end up facing further discredit,

    This has nothing to do with patents or claims. manufacturers of shops are not allowed to plug products whether they are patented or not.

    and a patent is a document issued by the department of commerce any alleged grievance presented by people trying to sell products constitutes a posting which is per se commercial in nature .

    This is therefore off limits whichever angle these people choose to justify the solicitation it is not allowed.

    my clients have volunteered their opinion and do deserve to be subjected to further attacks .Some will believe I am Jean? so be it.

    I am not trying to convince anyone to buy my product here and since it will not get a fair chance when people tell you they are trying to prevent you from making an expensive mistake while plugging their own sales while not noticing that those who bought their stuff decide the expensive mistake was their product. whatever the case may be these choices are to be made in forums free from the claws of people plugging their stuff otherwise it is a joke and a laugh. that is all one can expect .

    good typing may be a measure of something but that changes when people are attacking you 20-1 the same people for 3 years . i cant type I use 2 fingers but I can take pictures thank you
  35. Mr. Hammier information regarding patent applications pending is confidential. If you speak of poor judgment perhaps those who trust you with their confidentiality and privacy would raise their eyebrows at your after hours behavior.

    For the rest of the issues the answer is that Jones and the rest have engaged me for years on these commercially oriented matters and to which I have responded .

    It was not my choice to have to deal with this but I did and I have stated my opinion and my position. any change or outcome to commercially oriented matters must be handled or addressed in the proper channels of business by the interested parties and considering that these matters have been addressed at length and most members found them to not belong in a photography forum and boring which was my position in the first place.

    I have no interest in communicating with anyone on matters which are commercially oriented, and this website insists the forums cannot be used for postings which are commercial in nature if something related needs to be addresses I will deal with that In the right place

    Right now somebody asked a question about my product, if the responses do not benefit the competition and have to again resort to creating dissent and attacking my clients and my product by any means I have reminded this website that these people are not supposed to be here in the first place beyond that I have nothing further to say and as per the terms of use neither do any of these people.

    People alleging that I started this thread are insane and I have no interest in any of this.
  36. William:

    I was not asking for confidential information - I was asking for what would be public information.

    Based on your patent issuance dates you would have needed to have filed within one year of the date of the initial filing in the USPTO in order to preserve any foreign rights since they were utility applications. Design applications need to be filed within six months of US filing dates.

    Please do not suggest that my clients may be upset by my after hours activities - I am here during the day as well ...

    I might add that they would tell me to not waste my time on all of this as well ... Starting to sound good to me.

    Lastly - sounds like your typical end rant to have the moderators close the thread before it goes any further ... once again
  37. The question you should be asking Mr Hammiel is where is everybody to whom you have refered to as having poor judgement and you told Jean to pay dues take the beating or leave. sounds to me like youre all buisness:) maybe he chooses apr preferes to communicate with people in a different tone and I can speak for him but I know my clients do and chooose to avoid communicating with people who knowingly ask you questions over and over again .threads are supposed to be free of buisness related postings or solicitation, that is all Im after and Im not going to post pictures taken with my camera because you taunt me because that would be a plug so i will post a couple of pictures I took years ago 1 for vogue and one for lofficiel. all I have here is a small minibook which is 4x5 Polaroid prints . all the best W
  38. Another one
  39. As for Noah, if you read my first thread I said, "I have found that some of these guys that
    open their mouths about Littman are haters, old farts who have not shot a good picture
    since WW1. There are others who can guide you through positive criticism as to what you
    should expect when you ask William to build you one of his cameras.
    IF YOU NOTICE I SAID SOME OF THESE GUYS. You did not claim the "others" side of my
    statement. I notice how quickly you jumped on the old farts side.
    Well my mom always said that when you throw a stone in a crowd, the one who cries out is
    the one who was hit. Bob Marley says it eloquently too when he sang, "who the cap fit, let
    them wear it." I did not point out anyone, neither did i call anybody's name so i do not
    know why YOU cried out of all the people participating in this thread. I was definitely NOT
    calling YOU an old fart. I do not know anybody here. I was just merely generalising. Lee
    said Ruddy Roye--that made it a bit personal.

    I am also confused, I am not a Littman crusader, neither am I a Large Format camera buff.
    But I do not know why there is so much anomousity when it comes to L and his camera. Is
    it about the cost or is it about the man. That was question one
    If it is about the cost, I do not see LUG users arguing over how incredulous it was of Leica
    to come out with a 10 mega pixel digi back for $5K when Canon and Nikon were obviously
    out there with their 12 and 16 megapixel cameras for less money. They also do not
    discuss the maker/s of the Al A Carte cameras and how expensive it is to rebuild an M7
    with your initials on the top. I really do not get it. I like Dean's Suggestion about taking
    and viewing work. I am huge proponent of arguing and talking about work and vision.
    If WL makes a camera that some view as elitist the best thing anyone can do is avoid
    buying it. The anger and debasement seem personal and confusing. But thats just me.

    Thats me on this thread--I am done
  40. 'Jones once told aggie that it would help if male photographers evaluated her camera because she was a 'Woman". (I`m using Littman punctuation here).
    Mr Littman, again you have totally twisted the truth to suit your own ends....Do you ever get anything right?
    In fact everything you have ever stated is either incorrect, totally misconstrued or completely out of context. I fail to understand how you could exercise your mind enough to construct a camera, it`s just not possible. Someone else obviously manufactures them, while you swan around full of wind taking full credit.
    Is that why they are so expensive?
    As for the statement I made regarding my photography skills, I was joking. Obviously you also lack any trace of a sense of humour?
    As for the photos you did for Vogue, I recently judged a large photo competition for the City Council......even the under 12`s section displayed more talent than that which you posted here.
    Now go away for everyone`s sake.
  41. thanks for another excellent picture, ruddy. i guess this is the end of the thread.
  42. Jean
    I am sorry your identity was doubted as has been the case with anyone expressing an interest or approval of my product.

    Mr Jones and co.

    I am not going to invalidate or belittle your photography skills."......even the under 12`s section displayed more talent than that which you posted here" well you know there is a lot to be said for those young..." those pictures were taken 20 years ago and 18 years ago with a 35mm camera and are re photographed from tearsheets..

    I respect your choice for your own artistic choices as everyone's creativity should be respected perhaps that gets put aside when these forums are ambushed by people trying to peddle goods instigating animosity and partisanship but I believe you were not joking when you made the comment about equipment being better or worse and making no difference because it is consistent with your position and assurances throughout these discussions when you assure products are equal when it is clearly proven that is not the case. it also goes to explain why your reservation on the price after you obtained no greater benefit either way..

    "It has been my experience that a crap camera can give a great result in the hands of the right person and a great camera does not make a fine photographer. As a kid I played in a band, had a jerkoff idea that a better guitar would improve my playing.........it didn`t, I was still crap. I`ve bought expensive cameras hoping my photography would improve.........it hasn`t.."

    I do not believe you were joking when you wrote that but that you found a moment to distance yourself from the salesman and get in touch with your feelings one would have to believe that or otherwise be certain you are a hypocrite if you now insist that was a Joke.

    The " up with people" advice that we should all get along is great. get your hands out of the cookie jar, let true users guide themselves to the best of their ability and dont feel invited to show up on PN to advertise products because someone mentions your name because every 5 seconds some product gets cited and nobody shows up to plug their stuff..Im not defending my product but my right that my product gets reviewed without your interferance

    I have no quarrel with your photographic skills or anyone else's it is not the skill that is being adressed regarding your comment but the belief that equipment itself would make no difference . the fact is that a camera does not require to be in the right hands to be a better camera and be a better aid to everyone alike, the same applies to the guitar My mother finally agreed to help me get the Gibson acoustic which was not the most expensive but at least when I struck a chord it would sound like a concert hall independently of how well I could play it, my playing sucked but because the guitar sounded so good as opposed to the previous one my playing improved dramatically and though you might disagree I felt it really helped because I was able to learn that certain actions would yield more pleasant sounds as before everything sounded as rattle and hum. no matter what you did nor who did it. I never did become a Zappa but my playing was something I cherished for years after such change.and my parents were also grateful it was less noise and more music like .

    Certainly it is true that a camera itself does not make a better photographer but photographers came here because they believe a better camera would make a difference or the concensus is they would buy nothing and whatever may be the case with any product it is the pressure from someone trying to promote a self interest which is questionable. the fact that you take the podium and then refuse to let go and tell others to leave is really questionable because you shouldnt be here in the first place.

    I mean seriously most people would find it inappropriate that you proceed to market a product and speak of financial value in comparison to others when you admit that your opinion is based on the fact that better tools or worse in different fields of interest to you made no difference and it all depends on who holds them and therefore you feel entitled to discourage those who represent that better tools have made a difference while in their hands as opposed to other tools. that is what is being adressed . people are discussing equipment here not hands and everyone agrees that if they hold two things one on the right hand and one on the left they can make a choice, the joke is you posing as one of them to discourage them on their opinions as to sell your product

    You are of course entitled to your opinions but if you believe that a better camera would not prove more useful to everyone alike independently of their skills then perhaps you should tell people to save their money altogether for their retirement because in the end most of these people say they already own '" some camera" that has been a response you received in many instances from people who believe what they owned for less would suffice .

    I mean this is truly insulting to all ; Do you think photo,net would allow Pentax or any other to show up on a thread titled " I want to buy a NIKON camera" and allow Pentax or any other to first proceed to advertise their products ask the guy or girl how he /she could even consider such a decision after reading all of the discredit you have instigated and insited should remain posted as a means of self regulation excuseme( self promotion)? and then if Nikon shows up to confront the situation then Pentax tells Nikon " Now go away for everyone`s sake." People just don't behave in such manner . and perhaps Jean was quoting Jones when refering to boring debates

    "Dean Jones , mar 21, 2005; 02:16 a.m.
    This is becoming a bore! I have NEVER discredited you or your product"

    Well let us remind you that you have discredited and invalidated anyone who has ever prefered my product after trying yours , those considering it, my work ,my creativity , and my reputation.

    What was that....? misrepresent everything? please.

  43. William:

    Please bear with me on this:

    You never answered the question I posed - how did you know that Jean was male & French?

    Before rambling on please answer this question.

    Lastly - I find it a bit odd to group your cameras into the same league as Nikon or Canon as you are selling 4x5 specialty cameras.


    Thanks for your response & it's acknowledged & I appreciate it as I meant no harm when posting.

    William: Please simply stay on course - I am not part of Dean & Co. but rather a pedestrian photographer that has happened upon your threads.

    Final bit here:

    Answer the question per Jean please ...
  44. Mr Littman....you also failed to answer my question about whether or not you manufacture the L45 yourself?
    You also failed to answer the question regarding the exorbitant price asked for your 46 year old Polaroid. You even want extra to supply a ground glass screen.
    It`s not the camera that bugs me, I`m sure it performs just as well as many others. It`s the endless rhetoric that accompanies the product, the incessant attacks on all who dare go there, (including the harrassment of those who have purchased anything but a Littman) that I detest most.
    I remember being told, never to argue with a screwball........
  45. My god!!!

    Mr Hammiel how old are you?

    I cant believe you are concerned about gender and origin but if you must know before you can go on with your life, the fact is I have no idea which origin or gender classification applies to Jean but I assumed that may be male because of the assertiveness, generally with Women the word would have been "je voudrai" or I would like to buy a camera rather than want and then the name sort of points me in that direction regarding origin and his mention of Raymond Depardon also . jean may be male or female French or American. I don't care and that you keep asking me is insulting. how am I supposed to know.

    Do you? why do you care. the bottom line is you suspect this person is ill intentioned and have acted extremely rude towards this person with insinuations and allegations, not real and you have accused me of being this person. pedestrian yes. manners?. you stay on your side of the road and I prefer to avoid it.

    if you are not partisan in one way or another why do you refer to yourself as "us" and kick this person- send them away. I do not like the way you address this person nor
    the fact that once you are given a response you keep prying.and you have doubted everybody's judgment.

    While you may be a photographer and I am a photographer what is being discussed here is something that in what applies to me is business and I do not choose to
    satisfy your curiosity or anyone else's in a public forum

    You are not part of a company but partisan to the ensuing solicitation on these grounds and have turned this into a dissection of character , gender and identity

    Mr. Jones if you have any questions for me that you truly wish to communicate on you can do so by proper channels. what upsets you most or least is your business but it doesn't justify you using photo.net to advertise products on the basis that you and I have disagreements. it is not I who says that.it is a business practice expected of everyone and no rhetoric if you have a problem wit the site's policy then have them change it
    and please do not waste any further of my time Thank you.
  46. William:

    I am very simply asking you a very simple question which is based on my original reason for posting.

    Somewhere along the line you started referring to Jean as a he & from France - so far as I'm concerned you were in on it from the get go.

    This person is not an exisisting customer as they were asking about buying.

    For reference I am around 50 years old but I wish I did not answer this as you cannot answer a simple question from me.

    Please do not do the "male"/"female" thing in an assumptive way regarding Jean.

    I am not being unreasonable here but rather want a simple answer.

    I am also assuming by omission that you did not file in Australia so why hammer on Dean any further as you have no right to do so.

    You obviously feel persecuted & I have to say that I feel you have created this entire scenario - time to chill & make some more cameras & go shoot some pictures:)

    If you do not understand what I have asked and also said then perhaps try quadrangulating my comments into a clear picture as this has gone around the block too many times without you answering my questions.
  47. Mr. Hammiel I feel I have answered the question regarding Jean and you are being abusive by insisting I provide you with information I do not know.

    If I made an assumption as to gender you went on to abuse this person and my clients and their judgement. how dare you keep going down this path?. I havent insulted this person or asked for their buisness . if you feel that I was in on this thing from the start then you are asked not to adress me further as you are insulting me.

    As to the second part of your reiterative question I understand you " want a simple answer" I have given you an answer. if that does not answer your question then that is the answer you are receiving.

    AND patent or no patent nobody is supposed to use the forums for solicitation .
  48. Wilem:

    Since you choose not to address me properly:

    I am not soliciting any business here.

    Secondly: I am not abusing anyone here. If you choose to perceive it as such then so be it - I cannot control this aspect of your judgement.

    I stand by my original observation and you have still not answered my questions but at this point I don't care anymore. You have then decided to ask me how old I am & go off on abstract rants so as to distract from answering my questions.

    A good evening to all ...
  49. Great!
    I'm under the impression it is rude to ask a woman her age, I assumed again that you are a male but Lee may be used both for male and female and I don't know anything that would help me determine your gender any more than in Jeans case even though you have been around longer because I haven't ever considered that until you start instigating your paranoia, you didn't have to answer if you didn't want to. The truth is I hadn't considered it and perhaps such info should appear next to peoples names so people like you can sleep better if it is that important to you to establish such things.You may have made that perfectly clear in the past but I have not read anything that I can remember that would tell me except again I assumed by your tone and I would not have asked twice .If my assumption was wrong I apologize second if solicitation is forbidden its instigation is too.
  50. BTW Sebastian Kim
    That picture is "stink" meaning funky. Just think black and you will know what I mean. I
    love it. I did not see it before and just clicked over, it is off the chain man--great pic.
    I love the mood and feel of the image
    Thanks for sharing

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