I Think Schneider Deserves The LF Community's Loyalty

Discussion in 'Large Format' started by scott_fleming|1, Dec 2, 2002.

  1. I've been studdying lenses for three day now. And Focus and
    movements and prices and .......yadayadayada. I've printed out so
    much stuff I had to send out for paper and printer ink.

    After all this, one thing I 'feel' ( I could be wrong and please ...
    fill me in) is that Fujinon and Nikon don't deserve our business.
    They treat us like the crazy old aunt in the attic and give NOTHING
    back for all the dollars we spend with them. One has to be a
    regular net Sherlock to find anything meaningful about these lenses
    and thank goodness the private websites with links here have at
    least provided basic information.

    But Schneider Optic's website is a veritible encyclopedia of info
    that EVERYBODY here obviously uses. Well they are going to get ALL
    of my business. I believe in reciprocity. I like a corporation that
    seems to value my business and does nice things for me.

    I frankly don't give a rat's patoot if I can get cheaper lenses from
    our Eastern friends. Untill they give us the respect we deserve ...
    mechanically laminate them by means of helical sharp threaded
    devices!
     
  2. Hi Scott

    Rodenstock is in the same category like Schneider they are very helpfull and you always can ask them questions and you get very helpfull advices etc.
    For the japanise is it a to small business against there other parts from them, strange but it is so!

    Schneider and Rodenstock are boots the winners also in service here in EU!
     
  3. d_g

    d_g

    i totally agree with that, but what's wrong with rodenstock ?
    i don't remenber the adress of their website, but it was good as well...
    I was in tokyo, 3years ago, and info about nikon's and fuji's LF lens was available, i understand that the market is not good enought to print in french, spanish...versions, but they could have at list a website in english !
    Anyway, i've tried nikon lens (90/4.5 and 65/4.5) and i didn't like the colour rendition, it's a matter of taste !!!
    I think there's not a lot of lens very interesting in these trade marks:
    nikon 90/8 (lightweight and large image circle), and fuji 240/9A for same type of caracteristics
     
  4. So has the day finally come where a company’s only attribute that matters is, do they have a good web site? It’s nice to have instant access to info, but it’s not an end all to end all. How about the quality of their product?
     
  5. Also I might point out that Fuji and Nikon still make their small, compact and field camera friendly Fuji A and C and Nikon M lenses, while Schneider and Rodenstock stopped making their Clarons and Ronars. So if your interest is outisde of the studio and you want longer lens that don't weigh a ton you might need to look outside the web. This is not to say that Schneider and Rodenstock don't make fantastic lens. I just don't feel like that if a company doesn't spend a ton of money on advertising, that it makes "They treat us like the crazy old aunt in the attic and give NOTHING back for all the dollars we spend with them." true.
     
  6. Scott, I agree with Ed's statement. You have been studying lenses for only three days, as you stated. How can you draw your conclusion based on the amount and type of information that's available about the product on the internet? It may make sense to you, but not to me. Nikon and Fuji sell more lenses than they can manufacture. Fuji doesn't even want to have a distributor in the US. These two manufacturers keep their quality up by keeping their production numbers down. Dollar-for-dollar, Nikon and Fuji make some of the best quality lenses on the planet. I wouldn't have made that statement twenty-five years ago. At that time I also believed that Schneider lenses were the best. Let's see if your conclusions hold up twenty- five years from now. (It's time for my first cup of coffee this morning).
     
  7. Scott - I'd agree that it would be really helpful if more manufacturers would provide info over the Internet. If they choose not to do so, it does not make their product crap!

    There's only one way to compare lenses and that's to look at the differences in the printed result. They all have their own merits, disadvantages light fall-off, circle of confusion and bokeh.

    Epson has a lousy internet presence, but they still deserve our business!

    Mark
     
  8. Scott, In furious research and postings about large format cameras over the Thanksgiving weekend I am sure you are much more educated than any of us who have actually been using large format cameras and lenses for many years. There are even people on this forum who make a living off of their work. But never mind that. With all the insight and experience you have gained in your weekend of web searching you surely know best. So into the dumpster with the El-Nikkor enlarging lenses, Fujinon 240A, I'll even toss the Nikon 35mm gear just to teach them a lesson. Then I'll go and replace all that stuff with a Componar enlarging lens (I couldn't find that one on their web page), a 240mm G-Claron (where did that go again) and look for some old Rollei 35mm equipment that had Schneider lenses. That will sure teach somebody a lesson. Never mind the fact that I will have deprived myself of some top quality equipment that has been a useful tool in my photography.
     
  9. By the way, have you learned to distinguish between a long focal length lens and a telephoto lens? I was just wondering if I should toss out my long focal length non-telephoto lenses in favor the Schneider Telephoto designs.
     
  10. I too give my business, what little there is of it, to Schneider but not because of their web site. I think that the modern leness from any of the "big four" manufacturers are going to be pretty much equal in terms of technical quality. So I base buying decisions on things like maximum aperture, size of image circle, size of lens, weight of lens, price, things like that. Usually applying these criteria still leaves several choices among the major manufacturers. In that case I buy the Schneider, if it's one of the choices as it always has been, because Schneider alone among the "big four" seems to be consistently improving its products and bringing new lenses to market. Rodenstock hasn't made a new large format lens in something like six years I don't think, certainly nothing like the volume of new large format lenses that Schneider consistently introduces. Nikon doesn't seem to have any interest in selling its large format lenses. I don't know when they last brought a new large format lens to market but it must have been at least fifteen or twenty years ago. Fuji I don't know about since they don't care enough about the U.S. market to have a U.S. distributor or otherwise promote their large format products here. That leaves Schneider as the only company that seems to have a serious interest in the large format photographer in this country at least so that's what I buy when I have a choice.
     
  11. Nice little rant there at the end Scott!<P>"www" stands for "world wide web' . A
    web is defined by the holes between the strands as much as it is the strands
    that make up the fabric ofthe web. Kudos for to Schneider for their website but
    I'll continue using Rodenstock, & Nikon lenses as well as a few choice
    Schneider lenses (the 110mm XL Super Symmar and the 47mm XL Super
    Angulon), thank you very much. <P>Why? Because I generally prefer them to
    Schneider optics. Also Bob S. (of HP Marketing --Rodenstock's USA
    distruibutor) has been a great help to many people on this forum, and yes I
    know some people don't like his tone of voice sometimes, but he has never
    been less than fair or accurate in the information he dispenses, even if we
    don't always agree.
     
  12. Scott,

    You ask a lot of questions on this forum, which is fine. But your comments are not well-informed. (How old are you? I am thinking that you are lacking in life-experience, which will come in due time.) I suggest that you carefully study Leslie Stroebel's book, View Camera Technique (newest edition). If you will just get off the Net and into Stroebel's book, you'll at least gain a good theoretical foundation for large format photography. After that, it is mainly a matter of thoughtfulness and practice. I wish you well.
     
  13. Well, I've had my morning cup of coffee, and I've read and re-read the responses to Scott's diatribe. The internet is an advertising medium. It costs money to advertise on any medium. Schneider, Rodenstock, etc. pass those advertising costs along to us, the consumers, through the price of their products. I've always believed that the best form of advertising is word-of-mouth from satisfied users. Scott, my advice to you is purchase a lens, already! Use it for a few years. Then post your opinion of that lens on this forum. At least, you will be speaking from actual experience. Oh yes, read every book and article you can find on the subject, and stop believing all that manufacturer's hype that you download from their websites. (Now, I'm ready for my second cup of coffee this morning).
     
  14. Scott, by now you have surely calmed down (?)... Don't fool yourself with your philosophy, the world is imperfect. Did you know that Silvestri has on its site an address which is not working at all? And the info you get there is good to make you wonder if their cameras are really so excellent as their fame is... Never mind, all good things must be hunted with perseverance, like good pictures..!
     
  15. Well, me when I bought my 4x5 many, many years ago, saw a used Nikkor W 210 at the same time, good price, bought it and have used it for 14 years with nary a problem. With my 12x20 other than the G-Clarons a good modern lens is the Nikkor 450 that will cover this format..so guess what I got? Use what you need not what the commercial tell you. BTW I also have Schniders and Rodenstocks, but as I said before these lenses were purchased on needs and price not because they had a web site.
     
  16. When all of the emotions are set aside, photographers are no different from any other consumers (albeit a lot more intelligent and picky) in the fact that when they elect to make purchases for lenses and other materials it is all about the relationship between costs and performance. The name is really immaterial as they have nearly become commodities. I think that it is great that Schneider is trying to make you feel good about them via some customer service, but at what price? I could give a rats ass if Nikon does not advertise as long as they produce good products. Yes, it would be good if they designed a new lens but that is not where they are at. Same for Fuji.

    Since all of the big four produce wonderful products, let the individual consumer elect their price entry point and call it good. All we will get out if this is pure emotion once we tend to discount the realities of a competitive marketplace. Just be thankful that we have a choice.
     
  17. Wonder why Goerz doesn't have a web site. Does this mean that I should get rid of my Dagors?
     
  18. I can only speak from where *I* stand. Presently I have gained only resentment for Fuji and Nikon. They have made it dificult for me to understand their product and they have done NOTHING to help me better my craft.

    I have a personal vendetta against aloof, disrespectful merchants. I actually enjoy witholding my money from them. If it does not bother you that the guy with his hand in your pocket treats you like a chump .... so be it.

    I didn't say anything about Rodenstock. Bob Soloman is a standup guy and has personally helped me. But Rodenstock hasn't given me any incentive to spend my money with them. Where is the kind of helpful information such as can be found on the Sinar site ... and of course Schneider's?
     
  19. This is what I bought this morning. I had to contain my resentment against the Holmes, Booth and Haydens Company, first off because they're long dead, and second off, the Internet (or the phone) had not even been considered at this time.
    Holmes, Booth and Haydens Daguerreian Lens #5949; brass daguerreian lens, c. 1860, by this well-known firm. This lens is rather unusual, in that the lens shade and outer focusing collar are finished in black; the internal barrel is brass. Approx. ten-inch focal length; radial drive. Physically 3" diameter, 6-1/2" long, including shade. Appropriate for half-plate camera. No flange, else superb example from this prime manufacturer.
    Scott, respectfully, you aren't making any friends on this forum. You're just showing your ass. You need to get out their with an old used metal Calumet and one busted-up Caltar lens, and then come back with a body of ten or twenty nice images. Then you can earn the right to raise the roof in the way that you've been doing.
    In the short time that I've been following this list, I've found nothing but strong support amongst the fine people here. But you've gotta bring some kind of "bare minimum" to the table to earn respect; you can't just show up unannounced and start thowing food. The end result is that you'll just be ignored, and rather quickly.
    I'll even devote a private segment of my site for you to temporarily store your images, so that we can discuss photographic images, instead of the minutae of lenses, or even worse, photographic companies. If you're interested in this offer, contact me off-list.
    Just my opinion. I might be wrong.
    Mark Tucker, http://www.marktucker.com/
     
  20. The only thing that Nikon and Fuji have done to help me better my craft is to produce excellent quality lenses, cameras and films. Of course that was all I was looking for. If you, on the other hand are looking for something else, that is your choice. I have no particular interest in one manufacturer or the other. I have several Schneider lenses and they are excellent. Having my name on them certainly helps the intangible appreciation. To suggest that a company be judged based on the amount of information published on the web is a criteria for judging the quality of product or service is a bit naieve. My company has chosen to limit the amount of information we publish on web sites. When information is published in this manner it often denied the opportunity for one of our technical specialists to evaluate a customers needs and guide them to selecting the right product. People come to the web looking for one specific number or bit of data, that is not enough information to judge how a product works in a specific application.

    Have you taken many photographs with a Schneider lens Mr. Fleming? The proof of the pudding goes way beyond what could be published on the web page.
     
  21. I notice that some of the smartest guys around here don't post images. I'm not putting my 'babies' out in the cold. Besides they aren't worth looking at ....yet.

    I have not made a statement in any way denigrating any product's quality. Only the service I can easily apprehend just as any average consumer. I am the first to recognise I have no standing to make public statements regarding the quality of any LF product.

    I have not tried to start a food fight. Just seems some toes need some average protection and some skin is way too thin.

    Just speaking from my level of experience and that is all.

    You and some others have intimated that I have fallen for Schneiders advertising OR that a good website is not a proper way to size up a product. I have not done this nor have I indicated that I have. Furthermore I see no relevance in your argument citing purchases of antique equipment constructed before the advent of modern technology. I believe that is a straw man argument. Or even a red herring.

    Fuji and Nikon need to step up and we need to encourage them to do so. Purchasing their products in spite of their obtuseness will never accomplish said ends.
     
  22. With ALL due respect... your marketing philosophy is outdated.

    The MOST effective way to get me into a showroom is to put the BEST and most extensive info on a screen right in front of me that I can EASILLY and QUICKLY access.

    And believe me. I'm a consumer.

    If you are relying on some hourly employee to convince me of ANYTHING ... your reliances are misplaced. Clerks and salesman are paid PROFESSIONAL liars. They are the LAST person I listen to when buying ANYTHING.
     
  23. You make the most cogent observation refuting my stance.

    ****Since all of the big four produce wonderful products, let the individual consumer elect their price entry point and call it good. All we will get out if this is pure emotion once we tend to discount the realities of a competitive marketplace. Just be thankful that we have a choice.****

    I should be happy that the Japanese are pushing Schneider to do even better.
     
  24. Having Nikon and Fuji post technical information on the internet
    may be helpful to consumers looking for that kind of specific
    information, but not having it readily available did not hinder me
    from purchasing a few Nikkor lenses. If you're basing your
    choice to not use Nikkor or Fuji lenses on whether or not they
    don't have technical information on the internet you're cutting off
    half of the big four. It doesn't seem very logical to limit your
    choices in lenses on something that you could easily research
    on the internet or from a forum such as this or through literature
    that you can get from a Nikkor dealer. I have a brochure of
    Nikkor lenses with tech specs that I got from a camera shop. It's
    in english BTW.
     
  25. Scott, I think that your statement that Fuji and Nikon don't deserve OUR business is what sparked off this heated discussion. You can only speak for yourself. Only you can decide where to spend your time, energy, and money. Perhaps fuji and Nikon have alienated YOUR affection because they don't satisfy YOUR need to be hyped by a spectacular website. As you can see, you don't have many supporters on that point. I first learned about Fuji and Nikon lenses from people I trusted. Then, verified what they told me by actually using them for a period of time. I suggest that you try to do the same with the equipment you decide to buy, and quit trying to convince US that YOU are right, and that WE are the mis-guided ones.
     
  26. Scott,

    did it ever occur to you that Fuji and Nikon might be quite happy not to have customers like yourself...?

    I know in my business if a client with such an attitude turns up, they are rarely welcome back again, and word soon gets around
     
  27. Mr. Fleming, I don't believe I said that an hourly employee was tasked with convincing you to buy anything. What I said was that I would rather have one of my technical applications engineers discuss your needs with you rather than simply posting specifications on a web page. Specifications are not an answer to anything. Did you purchase your last car based on the specications? I doubt it. Not every factor that goes into a decision can be quantified. As to your dismissing salesman as being professional liars I would have to question who is out of date. From maintaining airliners to prescribing the drugs we use, sales people are taking a larger role. The reason is that most companies do not allow their employees the opportunity to become as well educated in a specific field as a manufacturer's sales person. The pharmaceutical sales person is not a doctor and doesn't pretend to be. When it comes to the testing, application and implications of a specific drug there is nobody better educated than that pharmaceutical sales person including your doctor. The story at the local Circuit City is somewhat different I'll grant you.

    As an earlier poster pointed out, the web is really an advertising medium. I would no sooner buy a lens only because of the manufacturer's web site than I would select one based on their advertisement being printed as two color or four color.
     
  28. My statements may be intemperate but your's are nonsensical. I and any other sensible consumer will be far better off indeed not doing business with any provider who resents questions, analysis and discrimination.

    I am regularly and ever amazed at consumers who make no demands of service and product providers other than price and results. I'll take an equal and even lesser product from someone who values my business and honors my loyalty in a reciprocal manner. AND I will happily part with more money. Obviously there has been some massive if not conspiritorial psychological manipulation performed by the globalist captains of industry.

    But true character shines through and is easily recognizable for those who have eyes to see.

    Tim, your attitude is indemic and illustrative of what is wrong with the world today.
     
  29. well my zip code is the same as that for Area 51, so I guess I must be part of the global conspiracy to deceive LF lens users....
     
  30. "I have a brochure of Nikkor lenses with tech specs that I got from a camera shop. It's in english BTW."
    And I have the same one in french language, so they know how to translate japanese into french as well: they are improving aren'they?
     
  31. But Scott, unless you have had some more experience with Schneider in the last few days, you are basing your decision only on their presence on the web! I certainly don't argue that we all would do well to look beyond initial purchase price when making a decision. We need to look at customer service, warranty support, applications assistance and all the other things that generate a loyal customer. I have been extremely happy with Schneider in the US. I have had lenses in for repairs and been very happy. I have had conversations with Schneider staff in which they helped me solve problems which were not related to the lens at all. They have been great. I can also say the same thing about Rodenstock's US distributor as well as many dealers from whom I have purchased Nikkor, Fuji, Schneider and Rodenstock products. Your initial comment indicated no experience with the company or it's dealers and distributors, only with their web site. That is what so many of us have found to be ridiculous. You blasted the hourly wage earner professional liars who some of us would call salesman and applications support. Yet you are completely taken in by the information on a web page that perhaps some high school kid programmed in his spare time.

    As to Tim's comment that you may not be a customer those companies want, I certainly understand his comment. I have several very large corporations that I avoid doing business with simply because they are what I refer to as high maintenance customers. These customers have endless questions prior to purchase, only about half of those questions germain to the prodcut I sell. Once they purchase the product they have even more questions, their expectations are different than stated before the sale, they can't run the equipment until you go out to the site and hold their hand and in the end they are never quite satisfied. The bottom line is usually a very low profit sale. And that is the reason I am in business, for making a profit. If I thought a better web site was all I needed I would eliminate my sales staff and save several hundred thousand a year. I can refer you to several failed companies in my industry that tried that approach.
     
  32. I have to disagree with everybody here except Fleming. Not because I agree with his position, but because we are trying to convince him (who has never used a LF lens) that Fuji and Nikons are quality products worth having. He wants to buy Schnider exclusively, by all means Scott, whatever floats your boat. Those of us who have been using these lenses for years know not all fit the bill for all situations and I think this is one lesson Scott should learn by himself as he seems to dismiss the advice given.

    Scott, if you do decide to buy a lens let us know what you got, and if you get the 210 mm XL, can I borrow it?
     
  33. Dang, I always seem to get to the party late. Hey Scott, I live in a town that only has one car dealership. Ford. I used to drive
    Fords but you know what? You can see where I'm going. I will agree with you that Schneider has the MOST presence as far as showing interest in the continuance of large format photography. As Kerry Thalmann pointed out in his View Camera article they're the only company that is marketing new products and ideas in this area. That said I'll have to say I'm like everybody else. I work hard for my hobby dollars and I want the MOST bang for my buck. I own a bunch of lenses and I'm going to say 60% are Schneider. They got that 60% because of "bang for buck" not web presence. Hey have you checked out Yamasaki Congo's website. It's great!!
     
  34. Massive conspiracy by global capitalists??? Scott, you need a lot more help than anyone on this panel is capable of offering. Seek professional guidance, for your own sake!
     
  35. I agree totally with Scott Fleming's main point that none of the other large format lens manufacturers have anything comparable and as useful as Schneider Optic's website. You have to look up Paul Butzi to download Rodenstock's MTF curves. Thallman has posted some MTF curves for a few of the Nikon lenses but nothing comprehensive. I think Fleming's decision to buy only Schneider is OK for the reasons he gave although I would not be so loyal. I can say that I favorably impressed by Schneider's webpage. It exudes professionalism to a high degree. Fleming's critics should switch to decaf. I think each of the other lens manufacturers has something unique to offer that they do not advertise, or do not advertise well. I particularly dislike the Rodenstock distributor advertisements as artistically and graphically dull but I love their products. How could they possibly select an image of a broken chain that lacks high resolution to emphasize the quality of their lenses?

    I am curious as to why the other lens manufacturers have not improved their webpages and advertising. Perhaps the market is too small to warrant the expense. Maybe a particular lens manufacturer is already at near capacity and could not produce more lenses without undergoing costly environmental changes to their manufacturing facility. I have never seen any indication on the web as to whether Schneider large format lens advertisements and website have led to expanding market share or product sales.

    What bothers me about the Schneider Optics webpage is my lack of ability to understand the MTF graphs. I suspect these might not be representative of 19/20 of the lenses made, but reflect merely the theoretical best attainable. I wonder whether the vast majority of lenses underperform these graphs. At one time Bob Solamon posted a statement that Rodenstock lense may underperform the MTF graph by - [minus]10%. It was not clarified by him whether this meant a drop from 40 to 36 in resolution, or from 40 to 30. Perhaps none of this may be meaningful in the real world, if any shortcoming in lens resolution is easily offset by decreasing magnfication in making a final print or by selecting a larger size film format that can be covered by the lens. You get more bang for the buck going from 4 x 5 to 5 x 7 than by choosing a more expensive lens simply because of slightly elevated MTF curves compared to a competitor's lens.
     
  36. "Bob Solamon posted a statement that Rodenstock lense may underperform
    the MTF graph by - [minus]10%"

    Sorry if you misunderstood me.

    Rodenstock is an ISO 9001 qualified company. Any claims they print will be
    met by the buyer of their products.
     
  37. Wow! What a Pandora's box! I don't want to support any side of view on this one but I would just like to say this about Schneider, and I never used to be a fan of their lenses. Schneider has introduced many new lenses in the last couple of years that expand our capabilities as photographers. The Super Synmmar XL series has huge coverages and asheric optics. The 210 will cover 12x20, the 150 covers 7x17/11x14, the 110 covers my 5x12, 7x11 and 8x10 (these are real world coverages, not manufacturers specs). The Super Angulon XL has increased coverage. Except for new lenses designed for digital use with sharper definition and smaller image circles, no other manufacturer has done anything to support the film using community except to update the W, WS, Sironar, Symmar lens lines with slightly increased coverage. They all make great lenses, I have some of each in my bag. But only Schneider deserves any kudos for giving us lenses that will do something that wasn't available just a couple of years ago. Thank God someone is still designing new lenses for us.
     
  38. "If you are relying on some hourly employee to convince me of ANYTHING ... your reliances are misplaced. Clerks and salesman are
    paid PROFESSIONAL liars. They are the LAST person I listen to when buying ANYTHING".

    Okay, now you've got my attention. I've been a salesman for the last twenty years. All three companies I have sold for have served a professional market and have devoted huge amounts of resources to educating and training their respective sales forces to not only understand the technology they sell, but to learn the art of asking the questions necessary to understand their clients business needs. This, to enable the salesperson to make useful suggestions and recommendations, not to lie and mislead. And this is exactly what I've tried to do for the past twenty years. To listen to my clients, you would probably come away with the impression that I have been a resource to them and have, in the long run, saved them money and frustration, which might explain why so many of them have followed me from one company to another and still do business with me. This is what a good salesman does. It's not what every salesman does, but not every LF photographer can make a image worth the paper it's printed on either. There are good salespeople and not so good salespeople. There are good photographers and not so good ones. And then there are opinionated people with nothing better to do than make sweeping generalizations and alienate everyone they come in contact with! I've had a few clients like that over the years and I could never help them. They didn't want to be confused with facts. But, I try to remember that they represent only a very small percentage of the total number of otherwise wonderful people whose trust I've worked hard to earn.
     
  39. Well said Robert! In the line of work I was, my salesman were of invaluable help to me, many going beyond the call of duty helping me with tests so that I would consider buying their products in the future. If we follow your reasoning Scott, then there is no profession which cannot be derided. All doctors are quacks, all lawyers are cheaters, etc, etc....
     
  40. Hi Scott.

    Enjoy your Schneiders.

    To everyone else; Apparently we'll never have to answer a lens
    question for Scott again I guess? OK.
     
  41. Well-said Robert....

    If someone wants to support Schneider because they have made advances in LF optics lately and the others haven't, I can understand that.

    If someone wants to support Schneider only because they have the slickest website, where I can access all that their marketing department has to offer with a click of a mouse. Well, I just don’t know what to say.
     
  42. Everyone,

    This guy has baited you, and you've run with the cheese. He has
    absolutely no interest in pursuing photography; he only wants to
    bitch and moan and get someone to listen to him. You've seen
    his kind, I'm sure. There are twelve-step groups for guys like this.
    He'll never buy a Schneider; he'll never buy an Ebony; he'll just sit
    on the web and act like he's doing something substantial with
    his life, spinning his wheels, yet never producing a result.

    Please do not continue to reward him. Don't let him suck you into
    some brand-war; it's just not worth it.

    If I was the moderator here, I'd say "Thread Closed".
     
  43. Funny thing Mark and it happens every time. Good topics peter out in 4-5 answers. Posts like this go on and on and on and on and on............And EVERYONE has to put their 2 cents in, even you and me. ;-)
     
  44. Wayne, What is this "we" you speak of? If "we" had ham, "we" would have ham and eggs, if "we" had eggs. And for the rest of you ooser-lays, I have gone out and captured several world class images while you have been seething at the keyboard. I only happened on this thread by trying to look up some recipes for bloomer pudding. Thank You (FOR NOTHING)
     
  45. rodenstock is just waiting for everyone else to catch up...:)

    if this whole conversation wasn't so funny, it would be sad.....

    wait, it is a bit sad
     
  46. As I peer into my Xenar of 300 millimeters; I adjust the chrome crystal ball to F4.5; and predict the future of this thread.
     
  47. As a "Bottom Feeder" in the LF Ocean I suppose I don't deserve the respect of any of the Big Nine(see, I count Wollensak, Kodak, Goerz, Zeiss, and Ilex)as I have yet to buy a brand spankin' new lens though I've come pretty close thanks to Robert White's G-Claron deals. With opportunistic abandon then, I humbly offer my services to those who wish to free themselves of lenses built by those insensitve people at Nikkor, Rodenstock and Fuji who treat us like ants in the attic..errr Aunts in the Attic. Send all those Grandagons over to me! Exile those Ms and APOs to my Igloo where they can't harm anyone ever again! I'll carefully guard them(especially those Grandagons!)I promise!
     
  48. To me it seems silly to base your decision on what a web site looks like. Why not base it on the tangible qualities of the lenses themselves? If you can't determine the tangible qualities or will never be good enough to make subtle differences tell, why not decide based on the intangible qualities of your chosen lens or brand?

    Remember that for modern equipment not constructed from ebony wood, some intangible qualities are much more legitimate than others. This is not a fashion show for modern equipment not constructed from ebony wood.
     
  49. As is often the case, people are confusing the manufacturer with the US importer and distribution company. Schneider Optics USA and HP Marketing are the US distributors for Schneider and Rodenstock products respectively.

    Nikon USA is the importer and distributor of Nikon products. Unlike Schneider and Rodenstock, Nikon large format lenses are a tiny part of their overall business in 35mm, digital cameras, scanners, microscopes, instruments, etc.. They basically import the large format lenses as a courtesy. FujiFilmUSA does not import large format lenses into the USA so obviously they do not have information on their US website. From an overall company standpoint, large format lenses represent a miniscule part of the Fuji Japan.

    Both Nikon and Fuji have Japanese web pages with a fair amount of information. But obviously not many people can understand what they say. The German Schneider and Rodenstock manufacturers do have websites (in addition to the US importer websites) with English translations, but this is normal for all EU companies.

    For the privilege of purchasing a lens from Schneider USA or HP Marketing you are paying a rather hefty markup that covers the cost of those US websites and the other support they give. A quick glance at prices from Robert White will bear that out.

    I suspect that at least some of the people who toot their horn about being loyal to Schneider or Rodenstock have bought these products from Badger Graphic, Robert White, or someone else other than the official USA importer that pays for the websites and the extra support.
     
  50. I'm still not going to buy Japanese Lenses.

    I still don't trust salesmen. 9 out of 10 of them in every field of commerce have lied to me and tried to sell me what they wanted to move off their shelves .... not what I needed.

    A small clarification: I didn't say I was going to buy Schneider because they have a slick website and it's not fair to twist my statements to sound like I did.

    Sorry for having offended so many. I hereby humble myself before the assembled forum and beg forgiveness.

    Scott Fleming
    River Run Ranch
    Texas
     
  51. Whether it's the website or the other support you receive from Schneider Optics USA, you are paying a big mark-up for it. If that's what you want, fine. I don't understand what salesmen have to do with this discussion.

    It’s sounds to me like you have a hidden agenda, since you said you would not buy “Japanese Lenses” rather than say you will only buy from companies that provide the extra support you want, and are willing to pay for.
     
  52. Loyalty? What do you mean by that?
    why should i be loyal to a Company? I wonder how many loyal
    employees they have fired this years for downsizing.
     
  53. "Schneider Optics USA and HP Marketing are the US distributors for
    Schneider and Rodenstock products respectively"

    Schneider USA is a wholly owned subsidiary of the factory. HP Marketing
    Corp. is not a subsidiary of Rodenstock or Linos (the owner of Rodenstock
    Precision Optical).
     
  54. Scott;

    I, too, have not yet purchased any *new* LF lenses, but am in the looking stage. My suggestion, based on the years of experience described in the many responses, is one of two approaches:

    1)Continue to increase your knowledge of the various products being offered by manufacturer's information, and the experience of users of such products on this forum, prior to making a costly and long term investment, or:

    2)Make a blind decision based on nothing more than illogical brand loyalty or some other intangible; then continue to make further expensive purchases over the years, in a "brute-force" method of trying to figure out what lens fits your needs, without ever attempting to learn from those who have gone before you.

    Perhaps those who have been harshest to you in their responses are envious that you *have* such a wealth of information at your disposal to make an informed decision. Maybe they didn't have this resource at their disposal when they were new to LF, and are sore about it. In any event, its good that we have their experience to go on in making such decisions.

    I also think there's an infinite number of images out there to create. Its not a "closed game". No one should feel protective of the truth and knowledge. However, as newbees, we should be very humbled and envious of the wealth of experience that these more experience folks have. Perhaps their message to us newbees is that there's no easy road to the path of learning. That said, however, you should still make as intelligent a decision as possible.

    Its either that, or this forum is for naught.
     
  55. OK you didn't use the words "slick website". But you said you were giving your loyalty based on the statement "Schneider Optic's website is a veritible encyclopedia of info ". And that with Nikon "One has to be a regular net Sherlock to find anything meaningful about these lenses" There were no other reasons given. But you are entitled to purchase whatever products you choose and if truth be told I and I'm sure most everyone else here has bought products based on less than logical reasons.
    Take care and have fun with your Schneiders
     
  56. Scott, you sure walked into a hornets nest with this one! I commend your studious approach to making wise purchases. There is never any harm in asking many questions... of course, sometimes experience is mandatory in making the right decisions. Don't get discouraged by this thread, it appears more people are responding to your tone vs. your issues. Your not the first one to get blasted in this forum!

    You wrote.... I and any other sensible consumer will be far better off indeed not doing business with any provider who resents questions, analysis and discrimination.

    I can totally relate to your position on this issue. In a perfect world this would be a great way to do business. However, as you know, the LF world is far from perfect. And it will only get worse...with digital sneaking up on us, you can expect LF lens makers to focus less and less on LF lenses in the future.

    So the bottom line is..... when you need a lens of a specific focal lenght, you research the market and find which maker has the product that best fits your needs, i.e. performance and price. Unfortunately, you can't always find the same lenses from all the makers in the same fl. So your main focus should be on meeting your needs first, then making your purchase dollars count as a vote in the LF lens industry.

    As for your comments on hard to find information... Well compared to other industries, I totaly agree with you, but I think you don't realize just how tiny the LF lens market really is. This makes it even harder as companies are not looking to invest dollars into a division that is dealing with such a small and limited market. I may be wrong, but I don't think Nikor or Fuji has introduced a new LF lens in at least 7 - 10 years.... this shows their committment to the market. It's almost impossible to speak to a knowledgeable LF lens rep in USA for Nikor or Fuji. Yes it's hard to beleive these two companies can not at least maintain current brochures and make them readily available or copy them and post them on a web site. Seems like a simple fix, huh. But both Nikor and Fuji are in my lens arsenal, why? They make lenses that Schneider and Rodenstock do not make...and I needed those lenses...it's that simple.

    As for your comments on Schneider, I agree....they clearly have the best web site on LF lenses. Quite impressive indeed. I commend them, and as you can see they continue to produce new LF lenses every year, so they seem to be here for the long haul and you can not go wrong with thier lenses.

    Rodenstock, in my opinion, is a bit behind Schneider in web site access. Still not sure why HP does not maintain a Rodenstock web site in USA that is easily accessable in English and contains all the revelevant data. But maybe they will in the future. HP is very responsive in sending out marketing literature, even if you are one of the many who have engaged in war in these forums with Bob S. (trust me, I know) Their brochures are very thorough.

    Anyway, good luck in your venture and be careful not to loose sight of what is most important - you get lenses that best fit your needs, i.e. price and performance. I doubt the designation of your dollars will have any impact on the LF lens makers. IF your unsure after reading the brochures, then post some questions about those specific lenses. Experience in the field is invaluable....and that is the beauty of forums like this, you can call upon many experienced users that you ordinarily would have no access to in your community, so take advantage of it. Hope this helps...
     
  57. geez...you know I didn't have a hard time ordering two brand new Nikkors (300 & 120) at work a couple of years ago...I didn't need any fancy marketing info for the decision--we went on it based one the reputation of the lenses and actually got them on our contract for Nikon Professional equipment. As an in-house studio with a fairly large Nikon system to begin with, my experience has always been positive with Nikon customer service--even this past week, they've been very helpful to us. We've been using their lenses for almost 20 yrs here, either in small format, back in the lab, and now on our 4x5s. I've been working on a project for the past year or so, and we've shot over 2 cases of Fuji 4x5 chrome film alone using that 300mm lens mostly, although we own 2 each of Schneiders and Caltars (which I suspect are Rodenstocks). Those Nikkors are top notch and a joy to use with the big image circles.

    This guy is a gear fanatic, sorry no offense here, but when you dismiss people who tell you all you need is an old Ektar or whatever--you fail to see the point. It's large format--you don't need spiffy new optics if you're not doing commercial work, or working in color--just my opinion here, of course--hell, I've worked in studios that shot chrome film everyday and used Wollensaks and Ektars....my advice would be to learn how to use the camera and spend your money on buying truckloads of sheet film if you want to SUPPORT the large format community! The only way to SUPPORT it is to insure that sheet film is going to continue to have a market, and I don't mean by buying a 25 sheet box once a year....end of my rant, here's my disclaimer:Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my agency
     
  58. Texas! Ohhh.....that explains it.
     
  59. Texas! Ohhh.....that explains it
    hey, hey,hey....easy boy! or we will send a stampede down your way. Probably when you are taking pictures of one of those houses of ill repute....:)).
     
  60. oh boy...

    scott, do you even own a schneider lens? how 'bout a fuji? how 'bout a lf cam?

    mmm hmm, thought so...

    me

    p.s. damn that new 6.8 looks ginchy... anyone know the price?

    http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/neuheiten/an_su_68_90_e.htm
     
  61. I'm closing the deal this very afternoon on three domestic Schnieders: A Super Symmar XL 110, a SS XL 210mm and a Super Angulon 72mm XL. Thanks for asking.
     
  62. Hey Fleming, remember I asked first to borrow the SS210 XL....
     
  63. like most texans i know...

    more money than brains...

    but not you ellis,

    me
     
  64. Waaait a minute, weren't you the one who complained about being robbed on a Linhof tech V because it went for something over $3000 with lenses? and now you are telling me you have ordered about $4000 to $5000 worth of glass and you do not even have a camera yet?....
    hmmmm......I gotta check that Schneider site if it is that good to make someone do this!
     
  65. I just could not bring myself to drop 3700 for and old camera and O L D lenses. It still bugs me as I am in communication with the guy who snaked me and the camera is MINT. He still has O L D lenses.

    AND ... who said I was buying new lenses? AND ..... who said I did not have a camera yet?
     
  66. If they are not new lenses, then what happend to all that Schnieder loyalty you mention? Maybe fuji and nikon are smarter, why should they give you the benefit and spend their money building a web site with all the info so that you can turn around and buy the lenses used?

    I dont wish to make this a flame war, but dont you think your stance is a little hypocritical? You started talking about how we all should buy Schnieder lenses and support them because of their wonderful web site which provided all that information for you, and now you turn around and buy the lenses aftermarket with no benefit to Schnieder?
     
  67. Jorge,

    ... Heaven forbid if the reason the person is selling them is because the seller is going to buy new lenses from one of the other big 4!
     
  68. lol....I dont know Michael, I would kill for one of those Super Symmars 210 XL.....hmmmmmm....where in Spring Branch you live Scott?
     
  69. I thought you were looking at 4 x 5. That SS XL 210 has HUGE coverage at 500mm and has a copal 3 shutter and a weight of 4 1/2 lbs. Not a lens one would think of for 4 x 5 unless *maybe* you were using a big monorail in the studio and even then it would be total overkill. Not to mention you could buy 2 normal 210s less than the price of 1 SS XL. Oh well...
     
  70. I would not do that. I made sure the seller was a true disciple. He's gonna take my money and put it in a Rollei. %^0

    x-Act-2: http://www.rollei.de/en/produkte/index.html

    Why buy new when you can get 40 or 50 off on the latest stuff?

    Now come on guys. I apologised earlier. Give me a break. I won't publicly trash your NikonFujiHorseman glass a n y m o r e. Really.

    Oh, and your a trunk line or two off on the ISP trace. Any of you want to come on out ..... if you promise to be nice ...... we can shoot wild flowers come April. I'll take ya around.
     
  71. scott...

    this is yer ass... and this is a hole in the ground.

    got it?

    me
     
  72. You callin me out or are you just being silly?
     

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