I need your help and opinion !!

<P>I think this Leica forum should be renamed as Leica M & R forum :-

)

<P>These days, I find myself liking the images made by the S/M

lenses more and more. They are more beautiful, romantic, and not

tack sharp like the Xyz camera /lens and then be over-sharpened by

PS.

<P>However, my problem is all of my Leicas are of M vintage. So I

don't know what to do. Should I buy a S to M adapter, buy the entire

outfit? Or what?

<P>Since the S/M is not a very popular camera compare to the M, and

much less expensive but clumsier to use : eg, you must trim the

leader; and all those buttons to turn... it makes the M seems like a

piece of cake when it comes to HC-B type photographs, but most of

the time the M is too sharp, too precise....

<P>So what should I do? A good user Leica S/M with lens can cost

less than some of the M lens alone, I can put the whole thing in my

pocket (not the shirt pocket, of course).

<P>The up/down side is I have to guess the setting most of the time,

but it also makes it fun because God knows if anything is going to

come out :-)

<P><B>BUT !</B> which route? I need your input please, all those

pros and cons. I don't need sharpness because all I'll need is a

post war camera plus BS, oops, sorry, I mean PS.

<P>Help !! Oh, pray tell where I can find a manual, is the IIIc

better than IIIb, IIId better than IIIc etc, etc ??

You'll need three screw to bayonet aapters to cover the range of lenses you're likely to use on an M camera. The three adapters each actuate a different set of frame lines in the finder. Eventually you might want to get a thread mount camera too because they are kind of fun, but if you already have an M body I'd suggest just getting some thread mount lenses to start. If you're only using the thread mount lenses on an M it's best to just equip each with its own bayonet adapter.

Get the Bessa R or Canon 7 or P. Problem solved.

<P>Alexander : Why, can you elaborate, please? I am looking for this dreaming look, not poor quality optics. Besides, members here always rave about the quality and precision of the Bessa, the Canon... we don't need to go into that. You are pulling my leg, right?

<P>...should be "dreamy", not "dreaming". Sorry.

Why Sandy, those are LTM bodies.

 

You don't sound like your usual, knowledgeable self in this thread. Now who's pulling whose legs? :P

In case it's not clear already, I mean the Bessa R2 and late Canons are better users than Barnacks. They are also less fussy than juggling multiple LTM lenses and adapters on an M body.

Darn, not the R2 but R. Got it right the first time.

Any Canon Rf model from 1955 to 64 is ver bit as good of camera for a working photographer as an M.

I have a 1957 Model L-1 and it is an outstanding camera. I also own Leica LTM's so I know what I speak of. If fact my 1951 model III is a better camera for use then my 1959 IIIg was (I sold it becuse I never picked it up once I bought the L-1.

 

Other Canon models to look at are the P and 7, The VI models as well.

 

If you like the bottom wind the VT's may also be of interest.

I think the older (poorer quality optics) lenses give that dreamy look you are after..no?

there are many ways to dumb-down the newer optics to 1840 if desired..

of course the best way to get that old look is to shoot with the old stuff..or something that

imitates it.. like the holga or even a leica knockoff.

my suggestion is to try using some crappy tiffen uv or sky filter with different degrees of

stuff on it.. it wouldn't take much to imitate that thumbar smudge- dreary, I mean dreamy

look. it might help you narrow down the look you you want to achieve..don't leave it up to

god, you are the creator. I hope mr.leitz does not have access to this site in heaven.

I'll second the vote for the Canon Model 7 and the Bessa R. Great screw-mount shooters. But you don't need to buy another body. You can use an M body, a scre-to-M adapter, and one or more of the Leitz '50's lenses. The 50mm Collapsible Summicron is really nice.

 

That "dreamy" look, or "glow" is really down to flare vulnerability of some of the older lenses. You get it when you shoot strongly lit scenes with a light source outside the field of view. Use the same lens to shoot with the light source in the field of view and you can get really bizarre, poorly controlled flare with the older lenses. Flare spots flying aroound your pictures like UFO's, flare and ghosting rings, the works. Some of the old lenses are really nice, others operate so unpredictably you don't want to chance using them because you are not sure what you will get.

 

Another choice is to buy one of the newer VC lenses that are offered with single rather than multi-coating.

Sandy,

 

I would have thought that the simplest and cheapest solution is to buy S/M adaptor and a

LTM lens. You definitely don't need to buy an entire LTM outfit. This way you have the

convenience of still using your M camera while having some fun playing around with an

uncoated 70 year old lens. Buy an old lens but not an old camera.

<P>Friends,

<P>I am really not pulling anybody's legs except my own. I honestly do not know anything about any LTM set up, let alone Leica, Canon, Bessa or whatever. When I started doing photography, it was with something silly with a fixed lens which name I cannot recall, then I moved to the Exakta, then Rollei and finally from my father, the Leica M3. Bolex I know, so is Linhof.

<P>I know there is a big void and I have no idea where to start to fill, that's why I post this question.

<P>Another question is, when one changes the focal length of a lens on a Leica S/M body, do one need to have a different viewfinder for each focal length?

<P>Sounds like I should really look up the Bessa LTM.... Bottom feed sounds kind of scary, too.

<P>Thanks guys, and what else should I know?

<BR>Ciao, Sandy<br>

 

 

 

<P>

I am always surprised when on this Leica forum a question about which Leica to get is answered by someone saying get a Bessa or a Canon or a Nikon or a whatsoever. It reminds me of my master at school who would give us a cuff round the ear and say "Silly boy - READ THE QUESTION"

Sandy, http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm have pages dedicated to the cameras I mentioned. http://www.dantestella.com/technical.html also has pages on the Canons.

Go the Bessa route as suggested above. Fabulous stuff.

If your quest is purely for image characteristics then surely some of the older M optics will give you the look you require- or better still, as you mentioned, use old screw-mount optics on your M bodies via an adapter- why buy an entire outfit? <p>

 

The adapter approach has been used many times before. See images by James Ravilious for e.g. if you are not familiar with his work. Good luck. A

Sandy, why spend the money on new bodies when all you need is the s/m (not sado maso)

adopters.

 

Hey maybe that what this forum should be, the Leica Sado masichism forum. Wow that's

it!!! It explains so much...

ahhh that's better now, and we can return to your topic:)

 

As far as external viewfinders, the ltm lenses with the right adaptors, will work just like

your m lenses in bringing up the correct frames. Here's the rub...if you are using wide

angles like the 28, i don't think, though I could be wrong that they make a 28mm adaptor.

 

Of course it doesn't matter for the wider ones, there's no frame lines anyways and you can

use any adaptor, 35 50, 90 that's spare, plus your external viewfinder. So if you already

have M's that would be my recommendation. The Leica S/M bodies are fun, and small,

and not too pricey for the very nice IIIF's. I got one just cause I wanted one and sometimes

I use it because of the ol Elmar 50 on it. But the finder is not near what the m is, they are

slower to load and just a slower camera. But I have to say the M is a better camera and

you have more options with it. Check out Gandy's site at cameraquest.com. He has a

pretty nice rundown on the gear and he also carries the adapters. But if you are concerned

about doe, why buy a new body? The VC lenses by the way are pretty darn good but they

are not the old classic screw mount Leica lens look. They are modern multi-coated lenses.

Good luck.

Sandy, I have read your question, and you seem to be contemplating freeing up some of your capital tied up in your Leica gear, although that obviously is not your main objective.

 

It would seem that the best route would be to sell your M gears and buy a IIIg, because it is the last iteration of the LTM line and at that time Germany was not yet plagued by high cost problems, so there was no cost cutting in the manufacture of the IIIg and therefore quality of the product need not be doubted.

 

There is only one thing that you may like to bear in mind. Leica stopped making spare parts for the LTM about 10 years ago (I can't remember the exact time but it was announced publicly), but obviously they have an inventory of spare parts whose state of depletion is a matter of conjecture.

 

Also there are many excellent repair persons around the world who will hand-make the spare parts should the need arise, although the cost of such spare parts can only be known at that time.

 

At the time of announcement Leica also made a pledge to support the LTM line for as long as there are users of LTMs.

Sansy, can you share some of the evidence that has convinced you that you want those earlier SM lenses? I am only half convinced.

I would keep the M and buy an adaptor instead: This way you can opt for sharper lenses if you want, and the usability is always a big and underestimated thing. Changing lenses on a M is a first and the cheapest way, and since you got used to them I would keep as much as I could. If you think you can put a LTM Leica into a shirt pocket, you need to wear robust shirts! A collapsible normal or a 35 Elmar on a M is not that much larger and can be put nicely into a coat pocket.

<p>

I once longed for dreamy lenses and ended up with a completely scratched and worn Summar that I do not dare to show pictures of, but the results that it produces are very nice (see attachment). At the moment my Hexanon and Summicron stay at home while I am out with a Jupiter-8 from the 60's, which I find the best compromise of contrast and sharpness at the moment. But things will change and if so, I am glad that I can come back to the modern lenses with the body I use - I already have too many cameras lying around at home to add one more.<div></div>

Hi Sandy !

 

I thought I was the only mug collecting and using S/M Leicas. The lens have a different look. Summars, elmars and summitars 50 mm all have different fingerprints. My english is not so good to describe these in details. The problem with earlier LTM lens is flare. If you don't shoot against the sun or strong lighting an uncoated Xenon is also quite nice. For the body mounting these on M is not a good idea. Strangely the resulst were always better on S/M bodies than using an adaptor. I would suggest you buy a III G or IIIF and buy a 50 and 35 Viewfinder (Leica or the newer voightlander). You will be happy as a IIIF can slip in your pocket. Infact they are more elegant than any M bodies

<p>Gee Guys, you guys are really kind and very helpful, but also know how to torture me at the same time. I predict at the end, someone will tell me that only I can make the decision, and swing me back to square one !! <P>Every person here has at least one or more valid reasons for the various routes. I wish I could thank each of you individually, but Tony R might chop off my head for using too much of his bandwidth. Nonetheless, Mr.Moore seems to read my mind precisely. Much thanks.

<P>Now if someone can read my fear....

<P>Here is another dumb question : If I <B>don't</b> cut off the film leader, would it not load at all? Would it jam for sure?

<P>Mr. Sung,<BR>Fortunately, freeing up my capital is not a major concern at this moment. Besides, most of my M are carefully chosen pieces, some are quite hard to replace, so dumping would be a silly move, but I do thank you for your very kind considerations. You do hit another soft spot though, what if the darn thing conk out, how many people are there that can fix it with parts? It is this worry that makes me think about the Bessa/VT...</br>

<P>I know, I am going to put Vaseline on my Noct, that would do it, right ? Just kidding.<br>Cheers</br>

<p><em>It would seem that the best route would be to sell your M gears and buy a IIIg, because it is the last iteration of the LTM line and at that time Germany was not yet plagued by high cost problems, so there was no cost cutting in the manufacture of the IIIg and therefore quality of the product need not be doubte</em></p><p>And for a quarter of the price, you could buy a bottom-loading Canon that's just as well made and whose finder might be almost as good, just as good, or possibly better (opinions differ).</p><p>Better still, don't buy any body at all. The "look" you seem to be looking for is, if I understand you and it correctly, most often associated with certain kinds of lenses of ''50mm'' and close focal lengths. So all you want is one 50mm lens, and thus one adapter for the bayonet mount. You can get an old Leica lens, or an old Sonnar lens, or a newer Sonnar-inspired lens.</p><p>If you're loaded with money I recommend the Fujinon 50/1.2; I've seen lovely results from it. Not an easy lens to find, though, even if you're lucky enough to have wads of cash.</p>

<P>Johnathan,

<P>If you live in the States and have enough sleepless nights, and you turn on your TV or tele and watch those movies on TMC channel, than you know what I mean. I remember there was this English spy movie (in B/W of course) and no zoom lens, every frame is a masterpiece. Quite different than what we have today. Maybe you are too young, no ?