I need more power

I have two britek 200 watt monolights and they have done a pretty

good job for me, but as my knowledge has changed I know now that they

just don't have the power to do what I want. I'm looking at Two 660

watt X1600 White Lightning with 250 watt modeling lamp or the white

lightning X3200 which is 1320 watts with a 250 modeling lamp I use

umbrellas. I would like do be able to shoot weddings with about 15-20

people in the party and be ready for all the aunt Mables and Uncle

Bobs in the family shots which can sometimes get large. Will these

two 660 watt lights be enough?And does anyone have any knowledge with

these lights? The flash duration of the X3200 is 1/900 @ full and

1/3600 @ 1/4 the X1600 is 1/1600 @ full and 1/6400 @ 1/4. Thank you

for any help you can give me.

You can get away with a longer flash duration if the lights are far away from the subject.

However, a 1/900th is good and usable. I like 1/1500th.

 

250 / 300 watts modeling lights are the ones you want.

 

Carl, I think you should consider using only one umbrella for fill and one normal reflector

for the main light for a group shot. This will allow you to put your normal reflector back

kind of far so that the whole group is evenly lit. This will cause the shadows to be alittle

sharp. But sharpness infers, well, sharpness.

 

The other way to do it is to use 2 umbrellas. Now you need power. The umbrellas will

soak up 2 stops of power, so will softboxes. The Balcar white umbrellas (don't get the

Zebra) are alittle more efficient, maybe you lose 1 1/2 stops. They are made of white

vinyl.

 

Carl, since you have to have AC cords going to these mono lights, you will need extension

cords, too. Therefore, there isn't much difference between using a mono light and a pack

as far as all of the cords are concerned. With a pack, the pack will only have the one cord

to the wall socket. Therefore, I am saying to get a 2400ws or 4800ws pack from

Speedotron. It will have slow recycle so that it won't blow fuses on the AC line. They

change power in 1/3rds of stops for the 2403b or c unit, 4800b or c unit. You can pick

them up on cBay for about $700-900.

 

The difference with a pack is that the pack is a 900 volt system. This makes the flash

duration shorter than a 500 volt system. But the mono light system has no flash cord, and

this makes it 1/2 stop more efficient than a pack and gives it a shorter flash duration for

this reason. So, the end result is that the mono lights and 900 volt packs have about the

same flash duration, but the mono lights are just alittle more efficient 1/2 f stop in power

for their weight. OK, live with the extra weight. Get a strong pack. You need the power

to be bouncing into umbrellas which lose 2 f stops.

 

What is nice about power is that you can keep your lights farther away from the people

when you photograph. This gives you a less contrasty look, and puts the lights out of

your way. You also don't have to move them so much because you don't have to put them

closer just to get a better f stop. Basically, you could (try) to just leave them in one place

as you do all of the photographs of the family on the altar. Sure, you are moving your

camera around, but the lights can stay in in place. Of course, you may want to do

something creative on the bride and you will be moving one light to model her.

 

Remember that you may not have sockets available to easily plug in all these mono lights.

With a pack, you only need carry one 100' thick cord and the 2 lights for a main and fill

will have forward running cords or running outward to your left for the main light. If you

have mono lights, you have cords crossing the lane where people walk as the cord tries to

find a socket.

 

Also, with a pack, you have full control over triggering and no conflict with what amateurs

do when you run a hard cord trigger from the pack to your camera. Nobody is going to

trigger your main and fill. And you save money on triggers.

 

You could use your Briteks for background lights. But you would have to dial them down

to 50ws or 100ws to do so.

 

When you use a pack, you only have one set of electronics to repair instead of 2 mono

lights.

 

Remember, the pack will be posted near the camera alittle to the side. The main will be

about 5-8 feet to the left and you will have an umbrella over your camera, very close to

the camera.

 

Mono lights are cool, but I have decided that having alot of power is more fun when you

want to use umbrellas and softboxes at a distance. In Celebrity photography, they use

enormous light banks at a great distance, maybe 40 feet or more. This places the rule of

inverse squares to your advantage with less contrasty light. The light will not fall off as

fast as if you place the lights closer. You would place the lights closer because you don't

have much power.

 

Go for power, go for a pack. In fact, go for a Speedotron 4800ws used pack for about

$900 and you will have all the power you need. New, these cost about 3 times as much. I

own one myself. Use the auctions.

 

As for mono lights, I like Speedotron Force 10s.

 

I saw your work and I like it.

 

Timber Borcherding timberborcherding

Carl, with the 4800ws pack, get at least one quad tube head, a 105 i believe the model

number is. You want short flash duration, and this gives it at those high powers.

 

You can always re-sell a Speedotron pack for what you pay for it if you buy it used. I don't

think you can say this about Lighting mono lights in new condition!

 

When you position your main and fill at a far distance from the subject, the background

will go LIGHTER due to the inverse square rule. Therefore, the more power you bring, the

less likely will you need to illuminate the background! This could be very handy for those

altars that are shallow, only 8' deep!

I'll voice support for the monolights. It's great to be able to move the lights wherever you like without having to worry about where the pack is. Want two lights quite far apart - no problem. Long cords with a pack system can be a pain.

 

Second, my way of doing things may be off beat, but I recommend buying the largest unit you can afford. Most monolights can be turned down to 5 or even 7 stops, while older pack systems are more limitted.

Backgrounds go darker when the light is further from the subject. You have to

drag your shutter to lighten the background or pop a flash back there.

 

I don't know of too many photogs working the way you want to, but I suppose

theres more than I know. The big problem with altar returns where you usually

find large group shots is the time factor, so I guess if you have time to setup

and use corded strobes (where's the outlet?) and adjust your lighting ratios

more power to you; Hope you have help. You might consider Lumedynes

with battery packs preset on tripods off to the side. Pull em in when needed. I

believe they went TTL now(?), so that would help alot.

Carl,

 

I use 4 Ultra 1800 units and 2 X3200 units. No experience with the X1600. For your stated use, the flash duration of the X3200 is not an issue.

 

If the additional cost, weight, size of the X3200 over the X1600 is not a major problem, suggest going for the X3200. You can always dial the power down on the X3200 (continuously variable over a 7 stop range) but obviously you can�t go the other way. Like Timber, I would suggest using larger umbrellas on both lights for your larger groups. For the larger groups, suggest setting at equal power.

 

Unlike Timber, I suggest staying with monolights for your application. The X3200 (and probably the X1600) will give sufficient power for your needs, whether using 160 or 400 film. You will have less weight and bulk to deal with. I think you will find it easier/quicker to position monolights and that you will have more flexibility. Put the lights where you want them and run regular extension cord if necessary to the light - no special/expensive pack extension cables. Also, never had any problem with multiple X3200 units on even 15 amp circuits. In addition, I like to have a backup or workaround in place for when things go wrong/fail. As Timber points out in a pack fails or needs service you only have one piece to have repaired. Flip side is that if it fails, especially on location, you have NO light, unless you have a back-up pack - more expense/weight.

 

Best regards,

The real situation here is that the pack would be used for a main and fill. As far as "not

caring where the units are" you don't have to care if the flash heads are in front of your, in

back of you or to the side when you use a pack. They will all trigger. And furthermore,

you won't have any false triggering from an amateur in the back of the room. Everything

can be hardwired. You can have complete confidence.

 

As for the simplicity of cords, their is only one cord to the head. This is the same for the

mono light! Think of the pack as a central cord connection--which you will be using

anyway when you use mono lights--or you will be using 2, count them, 2 extension cords

to the wall--one for each mono light.

 

The advantage of having lots of power mean you don't have to move the lights for the

whole session. You don't even need to change the power! When you use lesser lights, you

will be trying to maximize power by moving the lights for each new group. This is

unnecessary.

 

If you have an electrical problem with a mono light, you cannot simply run one mono light

at full blast. You would have Film Noir with black shadows. Therefore, you have twice the

possibility of a problem. Speedotrons can be rented as a back-up. Try to rent Lighting

equipment.

 

Since he has Britex strobes, he has a back-up.

 

The Speedotrons are very, very tough units. You can buy them used for about 1/3 of their

new price. Speedotron invented the commercial flash unit.

 

I have Speedotron Force 10 mono lights. I like them because while they are 1000ws rated,

they are really 1600ws. And they have Motorola 68815 computers inside so that I can

connect them with Ethernet cable. They go from 37-1000ws (1600ws). I don't know the

price of the White Lightening, but I know that the Force10 units are a top of the line unit

with variable angle flash coverage via a rotatable collar. One reflector does moderate wide

angle to moderate telephoto.

 

If you use, say 1600ws on an umbrella, you lose 2 f stops. This brings you down to 400ws

of forward light. At around 18' or so you should be getting a f8. Well, f8 is a very sharp

setting. 20' is a far distance! And this distance will give a unique low contrast low falloff

look.

 

On the issue that the background gets "darker" as you move the light back: Not so. I

realize that you believe that moving the light back reduces the light intensity on the

background due to distance. But what REALLY happens is that the photographer TURNS

UP THE POWER to re-calibrate the exposure. When he does this the background will be

nearly as bright as the subject! Why? Because the "inverse square rule" invokes a nice

feature: the greater the distance TO THE SUBJECT FROM THE LIGHTS, the less % falloff of

the background (as a % of the light on the subject). In otherwords, the light doesn't fall off

as fast. Want an example of this? The Sun. Because the Sun is very far away, light doesn't

appear darker if a person is 30 feet away from you.

 

He could do 2 Speedotron 2400ws if he can afford it. But why?

 

If car goes for the Lightening units and decides he wants more power, he will have to take

a 40% reduction in re-sale price. Maybe he will only sell them for 1/3 for what he paid. I

would rather purchase some working used equipment that has already been devalued in $.

 

If the Lightenings don't have a 'slow recycle' function, I wouldn't go for them. You can pop

fuses if you start shooting fast. Who wants to try to find a fuse box on location? The

Speedotron Blackline units and Force 10 have 'slow recycle' that makes an effective load of

60% of the rated pull, yet the unit gives 100% output.

 

The real advantage of mono lights is to place them a great distance from the camera or

subject. They are more efficient due to lack of a flash cord. But the pack would always be

used as a main and fill, and that means it will be right around the camera all the time. If

the pack's lightheads get bumped over, not so big a deal as a mono light.

 

The umbrella or softbox will reduce power 2 stops, and the variable power selection

switch is good for 3 stops plus the variable heads can do another stop. That is 6 stops.

 

He wants to do groups. He photographs black people and he needs low contrast light to

show detail in their skin. If he ever needs to use 4 heads as a main for low contrast light,

they can all be connected to one pack, and it is cheap to buy the heads. Not so cheap to

buy the mono lights.

 

Speedotrons are fixable everywhere. White Lightening is more particular.

I've used less and made do,so I hoped that with three times the power that my photo would be sharper, and thats what I really want. And the back row would have more light. Thanks Timber. My funds will let me buy the white lightnings(2-X1600) which will let upgrade, and cords have not been a problem(yet).I try to have everything I need.I use 160 film for the formals. Some of the best things in life are other people mistakes, and not to make them yourself. So I listen,I kinda like the monolights myself!!!!

The real situation here is that the pack would be used for a main and fill. As far as "not

caring where the units are" you don't have to care if the flash heads are in front of your, in

back of you or to the side when you use a pack. They will all trigger. And furthermore,

you won't have any false triggering from an amateur in the back of the room. Everything

can be hardwired. You can have complete confidence.

 

As for the simplicity of cords, their is only one cord to the head. This is the same for the

mono light! Think of the pack as a central cord connection--which you will be using

anyway when you use mono lights--or you will be using 2, count them, 2 extension cords

to the wall--one for each mono light.

 

The advantage of having lots of power mean you don't have to move the lights for the

whole session. You don't even need to change the power! When you use lesser lights, you

will be trying to maximize power by moving the lights for each new group. This is

unnecessary.

 

If you have an electrical problem with a mono light, you cannot simply run one mono light

at full blast. You would have Film Noir with black shadows. Therefore, you have twice the

possibility of a problem. Speedotrons can be rented as a back-up. Try to rent Lighting

equipment.

 

Since he has Britex strobes, he has a back-up.

 

The Speedotrons are very, very tough units. You can buy them used for about 1/3 of their

new price. Speedotron invented the commercial flash unit.

 

I have Speedotron Force 10 mono lights. I like them because while they are 1000ws rated,

they are really 1600ws. And they have Motorola 68815 computers inside so that I can

connect them with Ethernet cable. They go from 37-1000ws (1600ws). I don't know the

price of the White Lightening, but I know that the Force10 units are a top of the line unit

with variable angle flash coverage via a rotatable collar. One reflector does moderate wide

angle to moderate telephoto.

 

If you use, say 1600ws on an umbrella, you lose 2 f stops. This brings you down to 400ws

of forward light. At around 18' or so you should be getting a f8. Well, f8 is a very sharp

setting. 20' is a far distance! And this distance will give a unique low contrast low falloff

look.

 

On the issue that the background gets "darker" as you move the light back: Not so. I

realize that you believe that moving the light back reduces the light intensity on the

background due to distance. But what REALLY happens is that the photographer TURNS

UP THE POWER to re-calibrate the exposure. When he does this the background will be

nearly as bright as the subject! Why? Because the "inverse square rule" invokes a nice

feature: the greater the distance TO THE SUBJECT FROM THE LIGHTS, the less % falloff of

the background (as a % of the light on the subject). In otherwords, the light doesn't fall off

as fast. Want an example of this? The Sun. Because the Sun is very far away, light doesn't

appear darker if a person is 30 feet away from you.

 

He could do 2 Speedotron 2400ws if he can afford it. But why?

 

If car goes for the Lightening units and decides he wants more power, he will have to take

a 40% reduction in re-sale price. Maybe he will only sell them for 1/3 for what he paid. I

would rather purchase some working used equipment that has already been devalued in $.

 

If the Lightenings don't have a 'slow recycle' function, I wouldn't go for them. You can pop

fuses if you start shooting fast. Who wants to try to find a fuse box on location? The

Speedotron Blackline units and Force 10 have 'slow recycle' that makes an effective load of

60% of the rated pull, yet the unit gives 100% output.

 

The real advantage of mono lights is to place them a great distance from the camera or

subject. They are more efficient due to lack of a flash cord. But the pack would always be

used as a main and fill, and that means it will be right around the camera all the time. If

the pack's lightheads get bumped over, not so big a deal as a mono light.

 

The umbrella or softbox will reduce power 2 stops, and the variable power selection

switch is good for 3 stops plus the variable heads can do another stop. That is 6 stops.

 

He wants to do groups. He photographs black people and he needs low contrast light to

show detail in their skin. If he ever needs to use 4 heads as a main for low contrast light,

they can all be connected to one pack, and it is cheap to buy the heads. Not so cheap to

buy the mono lights.

 

Speedotrons are fixable everywhere. White Lightening is more particular.

As far as brute power for low price, I see Speedotron 2401A 2400ws packs on cBay for

about $400-600 all the time. With 2 heads for about $280, he can have a main and fill at

2400ws or 1200ws+1200ws for about $800.

The White lightening 1350 unit is an 8 amp mono light. Two of these won't trip a regular

fuse unless you really do rapid fire shooting. But if you use a 3rd one, you will be at 24

amps, and in reality 72 amps due to the "real peak". At this point you would be straining

the AC line.

 

The power of the 1350 is comparable to the Force 10. They are both 8 amp units. But the

Force 10 will slow recycle to 5 amps to give a slow line load for the AC line. That isn't

important if you use only 2 mono lights. It becomes an issue if you use 3 mono lights.

For about $820 per you can get a Speedotron Force 10 that has slow recycle, variable

coverage focusing, computerized ethernet connectability to Palm computers (for like

lighting up a stage set or multi-pop ing an interior). It is tough and simple looking, and

accessories interchange with nearly all Speedotron packs stuff.

 

If you really want a mono light, I'd go with the Force 10. Buy one, and you'll love it. It has

a blower inside and will keep up with a motor drive at low power settings of 37-50ws.

Sure, it is $160 more than the White Lightening 1350, but you know that the differences

are usable differences.

To actually answer your question rather pontificating wildly...<P>

<I>The flash duration of the X3200 is 1/900 @ full and 1/3600 @ 1/4 the X1600 is

1/1600 @ full and 1/6400 @ 1/4</I><P> This claimed flash duration measurement

is probably made using the t/0.5 standard . A measurement taken at t/0.1 is a more

accurate measure of stopping power. You should find out which standard Buff is

using to claim flash duration. But unless you are photographjing moving subjects

you should be fine.<P>And flash to subject distance has zero effect on flash

duration.

Timber I assumed that both lights would be set at the same power setting. Explain the main & fill in a group shot

Will the force 10 alone be enough for the group shots

Carl,

 

If you were to get just one Force 10 unit, point it into a 36-42" Balcar umbrella (about

$99, the most efficient white umbrella) you could use one of your Britek flash strobes as

your fill light. You would be using the Britek 200ws strobe at about 150ws or so. You will

see diffused light and soft shadows even though your fill light is not an umbrella.

 

In this way, you are spending $820, having a light weight outfit, and your are into a

system of a great pedigree. The White Lightenings are equal in power, weight and AC line

pull. But with the Force 10 mono lights you can tell your clients you have the best mono

lights in the world. Also, the EURO dollar is up against the dollar, so why buy European?

Like Broncolor?

 

Carl, oh, be a snob.

there is a fair amount of good solid advice in TB's posts that it is maddening to see

how many weird, inaccurate & just flat wrong statements are mixed as well. I know a

fair number of celebrity photograophers and not one of them sets their lights 40 heet

away no matter how big the softbox -- unless tt is a very unusual special effects

light. I also know more than a few photographers of people who are very happy with

Balcar Zebra umbrellas.

Zebra umbrellas are terrible. What a bad idea. This umbrella, and I own one of them, has

alternating silver/white light panels. As a result, it gives off "stripped light" like a zebra!

There are only about 8 panels so it doesn't really emulate a zebra! it just makes spotty

light! What an idea! It is supposed to be "sort of efficient" due to the mixture of panels.

All it does is create unevenness!

I think Ellis needs to contact Matthew J. Smith. He takes group pictures of celebrities with

enormous fresnels as Arri HMI lights and he uses in addition to the Arri lights Kino Flow

light banks that may be 4-8 feet long. Just the spread of distance between the lights

looks to me to be 20-30' in his picture of his studio. The distance that a wedding

photographer may use to a group of 12 on an altar can be 30-40 feet easily using a

normal lens. I don't see what is so unbelieveable about a fashion photographer using

distances in shots. Fashion photographers use 300mm telephotos on full length models!

 

This photographer recently did a group of 5-6 people for a magazine and made a personal

presentation to a pro photographers group I attended.

Funny you should mention Matthew Jordan Smith. he and I have been working for an

article profiling his work. heI just received a CD-R of high definition scans of several

images that will accompany the interview and just before I logged a=back on to

photo.net, I spent the better part of an hour looking at a few of themat full

resolution. But I'll ask him about this when I talk with him tomorrow. I know that he

works for the most part at relatively close distances to his subjects, sometimes in

small spaces like hotel suites and that especially when he works with Kinoflo's they

are at nowhere near the distances you are talking about, ifn factthey are quite close

Albert Watson, Annie Leibowitz, Marc Hauser, Gregory Heisler, Richard Avedon, Hiro,

Irving Penn, Pam Francis, Mark Seliger, the late Herb Ritts, Greg Gorman and Timothy

Greenfield-Sanders all work as close to the subject as their composition will allow -

and it is quite often at conversational distance, and unless there is some absolute

reason why they can't putthe lights close, the lights are close too -- with very rare

exceptions. It is jsut hardto get a feeling of immediacy and intimacy if you are more

than a couple of yards away from someone. The big exception to this is large and

highly composed & strongly choreographed group portraits like the one Annie

Leibowitz does every year for the Academy Awards issue of Vanity Fair.

Carl,  

 

USING A POWERFUL MONO LIGHT OR PACK AT THE ALTAR 

 

  

I did a long 'proof' of why the Force 10s will work, and it folllows. Here is an easy to 

remember way to place the units before the altar:  

 

  

This assumes you will have a bridal party of 10 ushers and bridesmaids and bride and 

groom = total 12 people 

 

 

If you have fewer people, it will still work. 

 

 

  

This is measured for a normal lens on your camera, such as a 50mm for 35mm, 75mm for 

6x4.5, 80mm for 6x6, 90mm 6x7. However you could always change and use a slight 

wide angle lens.  If you move this set-up forward for a slight wide angle lens like a 35mm 

lens on a 35mm camera, you will gain 1/2 f stop in light effectiveness. 

 

 

  

Everything is in "3s". Note also that pews are exactly 3' apart. So, you can use "pew 

distances" like "2 pews" to mean 6'.  

Measure a "pew" at you church. Measure the distance between pews: 3'. I did and that is 

what I got.  I used the pews at St. Patrick's Church on Mission St. at 3rd St, San Francisco 

CA 

 

 

  

Place your Force 10s with Balcar umbrellas (most efficient umbrella) exactly 36 feet from 

the bottom step of the altar, or the place where the closest usher or flower girl will be 

standing. Place your fill light on center to the aisle and Bridal Party exactly 36' from the 

point where the first altar step begins: The place where the carpenter of the stairs started 

making the steps! You can use a yardstick or you can use your own steps as long as you 

know how long each of your steps are!   My steps are 2.5 feet long, for example. You can 

also count "pews". Position the fill umbrella in the center of the aisle over the camera, 36' 

from the first altar step joint or the front toe of the front person of the group. 

  

 

Position the main umbrella 6' to the left of center of the aisle & 6' forward of the main 

camera and fill light;  

 

  

This is "a 2 pews distance forward" which =6'. 

 

  

Remember this easy formula: 36/6x6 

 

 

It means 36 feet back, 6 feet to the side and 6 feet forward. 

 

  

If you place your lights on these measured spots, you will have modeling of the bride and 

groom and group pictures, and you don't have to move your lights forward for nearly all

of 

the pictures, unless you want to do something very unusual.  

 

  

You would start photographing the priest and the Bride and Groom first.  

 

  

You would do the largest group picture of the bridal party next.  

 

  

You will do the smaller groups next, Parents, Bridesmaids with Bride, etc. 

 

  

You will do the bride and groom next 

 

  

Bride alone is final picture.  

 

  

By doing the pictures in this order, you will have less pressure and commotion from all of 

the people present because you are "peeling them off", they leave to go to the reception.  

The room becomes filled with fewer and fewer people as you work! 

 

  

This gives you time with the Bride and Groom to make details more perfect. Also, if the 

coordinator is pushing you to get out of the church, the sight of just seeing the bride and 

groom in the church last will please her. She doesn't have to become huffy. Also, the 

limousines will want to leave soon because their contracted time is running out! The 

bride and groom have their own chauffeur you see. 

 

  

You can move up your main light to model the bride alittle more with a closer umbrella at 

the end.  

 

 

For more power, just move up your fill light located in the aisle a few feet.

 

 

Timber Borcherding timberborcherding 

 

Carl, 

 

PROOF

 

I measured out a Catholic church here in San Francisco. Using a normal 50mm lens on a

Nikon, and allowing for a crop of the long 35mm format to about a 5x7 size, I came up

with a figure of: 

 

 

 

24' wide for 12 person bridal party on the altar. 

 

 

39' distance from the camera to the farthest person on the altar. Rounding it off, we add 6

inches to each left and right side to show the church alittle more, we have 24' x 39': The

12 person bridal party is 24' wide, and 39' feet from the camera. 

 

 

Naturally, if you were to use a longer "normal" lens on another camera, like a 100mm on a

Hasselblad, this distance will grow. A "normal" focal length lens for the 35mm is 46mm.

75mm for the 6x4.5. So, if you use 100mm on 6x4.5 you will be pushed back alittle more,

probably to 44' easily, maybe 46'. 

 

 

I used a yardstick I bought at Patrick's stationary in San Francisco on Mission St. I walked

over to St. Patrick's Church on Mission and Third and did the measurements. There was a

choir singing. I used their bodies as a visual yardstick, as well. Used a 18" wide allowance

each for 10 people of the bridal party. This means that they are folded like an accordian,

but not too tight. My shoulders are 20" wide, so you can see they are turned alittle bit

from the photographer, but not hunched up too much. I allowed about 5' for the bride and

groom width. I allowed the rest to fill out the 24'. 

 

 

Here are the mathematics: 

 

 

10 x 1.5 feet = 15 feet for 10 members of bridal party 

 

 

5 feet width for bride and groom, alittle more distance for them than bridal party. 

 

 

2 feet x 2 sides for a total 2 foot border around this group = 4 feet. 

 

 

Added up, we have 24 feet total distance from left to right of a 12 person bridal party.

 

 CROPPING CONSIDERATION

 

I realize that some photographers will hunch the group together tighter or allow less room

on the right and left side. Remember that I am allowing for a 5x7 and if they order an

8x10, or 4x5, the picture will be cropped. So that little 2' border on the sides could be

cropped away in normal usage for a 4x5 ratio. 

 

 PEW DISTANCES

 

Each pew was exactly 36" distance from one another. I framed the scene using a normal

lens; this put me back by the 9th pew. The front row pew was very close to the altar area

about 10-12 feet. So you can see that 9 pews x 3 feet = 27 feet. Add 12 feet for a person

on the altar from the first pew and you have 39 feet distance from group to camera and fill

light. 

 

 

Any reader can duplicate these measurements and come very close to what I have here. 

 

 

Any photographer could position his umbrella closer to the bridal party, taking advantage

of the wide angle coverage of his umbrellas, but this will start to unevenly light the group

due to the rule of inverse squares if you get too close!. You see, the main light, not the fill

will be to the photographer's left about, oh, 6 feet. The distance from the light to the left

to the usher standing on the far right of the bridal party will then be LONGER than 40'.

You'll have to do your geometry to figure this one: a (squared) + b(squared) = c (squared

hypontenuse) for starters. That would be: 24 squared (1056) + 39 squared (1560) = take

square root of sum 2616. I don't have a calculator handy. Take the square root of 2617

and you have the distance from the main light on the left to the farthest person on the

right of a bridal group of 12. It appears to be about 52' 

 

 

ALOT OF POWER

 

So, you are trying to illuminate a group of 12 people with an umbrella at 52 feet! Now this

takes some power! 

 

WHY 4800WS

 

This is why I suggested the 4800ws Speedotron unit. This is also why I suggested that the

main light merely be a plain vanilla normal reflector that would be more efficient than a

umbrella or softbox. Using the nearer fill light for the umbrella is OK, but you still need

real big power to do this to get a f8 at ASA 100. 

 

 

Using my memory, my 200ws Norman pumped up to 320ws through wizardry will give me

a f5.6 with a normal lens at 39'. Therefore, I need 600ws to get a f8 using only a normal

reflector (by Lumedyne). If I use a softbox, I lose 2 f stops and therefore need 2400ws to

do the same job for a f8 with a softbox. 

 

 

Given that I split this load, I will need 1200ws at each main and fill.  But remember that the

main light is at 52', not 39' so that means we need to add another stop of power for the

main to be "equal" to the fill, that means the main needs 2400ws, and the fill should be

1200ws to be alittle more equalized due to their uneven positions to the subjects arrayed

on the altar. This is a total 3600ws effective ws.

 

 

So, you can see how a 4800ws unit could be the answer here. 

 

 

Two Force 10s will output about 1600ws effective. This means we are fine for the fill

umbrella, but we are short 1/2 stop for the main umbrella at the farthest usher on the

right. For the Bride and Groom, we are OK. 

 

 WE BARELY MAKE IT

 

So, if we use Force 10s, we will barely make a f8 at a 39' camera position using full power

and bounced at umbrellas. Given that the Balcar umbrellas are little more efficient than

your average 2 stop loss umbrella, we will be fine. We will pick up another 1/3 stop of

power and this will be fine for everyone at f8 ASA 100. 

 

 

So, we did it with 2 Force 10s and Balcar umbrellas for an f8 of a bridal party of 12. 

 

 

Carl always can move the main light in 3 feet or so closer to 33' to pick up alittle

"efficiency'. He can also move the main light in alittle closer to the camera, instead of 6' he

could be at 4.5 feet from the camera. 

 

 LOW CONTAST RESULT

 

As a result of lighting at this distance, darker skin will show less contrast. 

 

 

For an example of a photographer who uses very flat light light on dark skin, go to

celebrity photographer: 

 

 

www.matthewjordansmith.com 

 

 

for a look. 

 

 

 

 

Note: I made a slight change in deciding how main camera /fill is decided. I newly

measure from the fill light/camera position to the front OF THE STAIRS rather than to the

last person in the group. I assume that the group will only be 3-4 feet deep. This means

that all 39' distances become 36' distances. I created a formula of 36/6x6 to remember

these distances. 36 feet back from the front stairs or front person. Main light 6 feet to

the side, and 6 feet forward of the fill light/ camera position.

 

You can always move the fill light forward alittle to get more effective power out of any

light.

 

Timber Borcherding timberborcherding

Carl,

 

As often happens, you ask a few seemingly simple questions and you get a ton of advice, some on point and some that, umm, start drifting.

 

As I understand your posts, you have used 2 Britek 200 and have made do but need additional power for depth of field in your large groups. In your first and second post, you indicated a leaning toward 2 White Lightning X1600 units. You also seemed to infer a question by stating the claimed flash duration of the X3200 and the X1600.

 

Last item first. Again, for your stated use, the flash duration is not an issue. As Ellis stated, there are indeed various methods for measuring duration and the t0.1 is the method that is more relevant for measuring stopping action stopping ability, though the t0.5 is the more common and, I think it fair to say, the de facto standard. By my recollection, BronColor is the only, or one of the few, manufacturers to give t0.1 times. Again, not relevant for your purpose of posed images, and no one seems to be of a different opinion.

 

It would seem that you had done at least some homework and were leaning toward monolights, and White Lightning in particular.

 

Two X1600 units will serve you well. You will be getting NEW units, with warranty, and the company provides excellent technical service and support. They make very good equipment - as a number of other manufactures do. Make no mistake, Speedotron makes very good equipment. It starts sounding like a Nikon - Canon debate. At the end of the day, Speedotron, White Lightning, BronColor, Elinchrome, etc. all make good products. Usually comes down to best bang for the buck (as defined by you).

 

 

There has also been some heavy recommendation for a power pack set up over monolights. Obviously, both can do the job. Although I have a personal preference for monolights for location work, my strongest reason for suggesting them for your situation is the nature of your circumstances - i.e., what you are shooting and that your budget seems aligned to a pair of X1600s.

 

You are shooting weddings. To state the obvious, not an event that can be re-shot if your one and only power pack goes on blink. Sorry bride and groom, flash isn�t working so no group shots tonight.

 

With your 2 NEW monolights (X1600 or Speedotron or XXX) and your two Briteks, as opposed to adding a single power pack and two heads to your Briteks, you are, IMHO, in a much better position to provide a professional service, even if Murphy surfaces.

 

If one of your NEW monolights goes on the blink, you have at least two options not available if a USED power pack goes on the blink.

 

1 - Shoot the two Briteks into one umbrella and dial down the new monolight somewhat and you still have a two light set-up for your large groups. Yes, maybe you will need to go from 160ISO to 400ISO to get the requisite depth of field but you can STILL get the image.

 

 

2 - You move the single New monolight OVER the camera, i.e., do not leave to side as implied by another poster�s comment. Obviously, you now have one-half the power available, so if you were using both new monolights at their maximum power, AND you need to maintain the same f-stop, you will need to change film/ISO setting. You STILL get the image that you can�t by using only your Briteks.

 

In any event, even in "backup mode", you still have more power than you have with the existing 2 Briteks.

 

 

One parting thought Carl. If you can�t, or are just not inclined, to go to the extra expense of 2 X3200units over 2 X1600 units at this time, you may want to consider going to 1 X1600 and 1 X3200.

 

Best regards,

Timber's calculations include at least 4 mistakes in his calculations, mistakes that

render his entire and ponderous arguments moot.

 

1.) Assumes you will only have normal focal length lens and not a wide angle.

 

2.) Forgets that you can get your lights much closer by simplying keeping them

just out of the camera's angle of view.

 

3.) Forgets that placing umbrellas (let's assume that you are using normal

umbrellas in the 40" to 60" diameter size and are not spending seveeral hundred

dollars on one of the huge super umbrellas likre the Para from Broncolor or the

Jumbrella from Plume, ltd.) approx. 50 feet away from a subject is a terrific waste of

energy and will do very little to improve the quality of light over using a simple 10"

reflector or a narrow angle like the Profoto Magnum reflector. This is a matter of

simple geometry; A 50" light source 50 feet away from a subject has the same quality

of light as a 10' reflector 10 feet away from the subject. In adddition a white 50"

umbrella is designed to illuminate an angle of about 120 degrees. so by placing

umbrella equipped lights 50 feet away you are lighting a very large area close to the

camera that is outside of the area being photographed.

 

4.) Assumes you will be forced to set up all 12 people in a single line.

I don't often have anymore than about 8 in a row as weddings go. But as stated I shoot weddings that some times have a lot family members,and the bride and groom wants photos taken with his or her family. And my umbrellas now are 32", stands are about 7 1/2' tall. so I'm looking at some 10' stands also. I generally shoot at 20-25' with 35mm. With a zoom lens @ 35-40mm so I don't have ulgy corners. Will the 32" umbrella be wide enough? Or will I need to get some larger ones. I don't consider myself high end (yet) kinda middle of the road, but I am working on it.