How to light a model and car?

<p>Hello, <br>

I am doing my first car shoot with strobe lighting. Here is the equipment I have at my disposal: 2 Alien Bees B800 strobes, 1 ABR800 ringlight, 1 SB-800, 1 SB-900. I have 1 beauty dish, 1 softbox, and 7" reflectors with an assortment of grids for the Alien Bees. Vagabond Minis for power. Also, I have a polarizing filter if you think it would help minimize glare from the glass. What are some possible setups you would recommend? I know this is subjective, but I would like some rough ideas. The car is a 1995 Corvette (red/red). I am planning on shooting in the countryside (think pulled over on side of the road by a farm with horses in background). The model will be in a metallic bikini with heels. Any advice, including the time of day you would recommend would be greatly appreciated. Once again, I know lighting is highly subjective, but I am wondering how YOU would do it with the equipment I have, and then I can improvise and change from there. The more specific the better. Thanks!<br>

P.S. Triggering will be done with Pocket Wizards for Alien Bees and SU-4 mode for speedlights. Keep in mind that I am not saying I need or want to use ALL of the equipment listed, but it is what I have available to use. </p>

<p>Honestly........This doesn't sound like the kind of shoot you should be doing. Why should anyone tell you how to do this complex, highly technical and artistic job? The degree of sheer nerve you have to have even accepted this job, and then asked us how to do it, is utterly amazing. Disgusted....Robert</p>

 

<p>He didn't say it was a <strong>paid</strong> shoot. :)</p>

<p>How does that matter, Sheldon?</p>

<p>What's wrong with suggesting a few tips? Not that I know anything about shooting cars, but here's how I would do it:</p>

<p>1. Late-afternoon/dusk.<br /> 2. Put your back to the setting sun.<br /> 3. Hit the model with a large softbox, or give her a hard rim light with no modifier (perhaps, rim part of the car as well).<br /> 4. Let the sunset (which is at your back) "light" the car.<br /> 5. Put a Speedlight in the car's interior with a Stofen or something.<br /> 6. Turn car's wheels at a "bitchin'" angle (<em>very</em> important).<br /> 7. Shoot from 400 feet away with a 600mm f/4, with your chin on the asphalt.<br /> 8. Have fun!</p>

<p>Oh, and if your model needs any assistance, just let me know!</p>

<p>To amplify just a little: contact any Commercial Studio in any major US or Canadian city and get a rough quote for the creation fee of a commercial grade image with the contents mentioned in the op. Never mind licensing, model and animal fees, or useage, or any of the other many hoops one jumps through in that level of work.....just the Creation Fee alone.<br>

It will likely amaze you. I have some full-time commercial photographer friends in exactly that line of work and I know what they do....which is why I had a reaction to the post in the first place.....Robert</p>

<p>I'm sorry, but I fully agree with Robert - this is a highly complex shot, one even I would be a bit apprehensive about undertaking (and I've done similar shots and even more complex ones many times), let alone assuming I would be able to complete simply by asking forum advice.</p>

<p>This is a shot that entails the best of portraiture, still life, fashion and landscape photography all combined together, at an outdoors location. Your mention of equipment completely useless for the shot (did you include them just to say you have them or what? Sometimes selective use is best!) shows you have no clear understanding of how light is setup, modified and controlled, how large objects are setup, what difference and what the precise use a polariser has...oh, need I go on?</p>

<p>I'm sorry, but this is simply wrong and I feel sorry for your "client"...</p>

<p>Get the boook light science and magic. It has a chapter on lighting cars! Lighting a big subject like a car is a highly skilled thing. Getting the lines right requires huge lights. Outside i can think of requiring a overcast day to make it easier.<br>

The flashes you have will give point reflections on the car which will make it look bad. You need large soft boxes to make the reflective lines.<br>

PS: I have never done a car shoot professionally, but shooting my own car for fun is what i did and i didnt like the ouptut and read up a little about it and decided i cant do it well!</p>

 

<p>Wow... talk about a grumpy bunch of people. The guy wants tips for how to do something with what he has available and he's attacked for thinking of attempting it, and then he's attacked for listing his gear? Get over yourselves, people. And Robert, for a "semi-retired teacher" you should be ashamed of yourself. Do you tell your students to just shoot flowers all day until they accidentally fall into a job at a major commercial studio? You learn by doing. Shame on all of you for presuming that Brandon has charged some company $50 000 for a shoot and then coming here to ask questions. Maybe it's his girlfriend with his buddy's 'vette? </p>

<p>Lighting cars is very hard, Brandon. As the world famous photographers above me have mentioned, it often involves huge lights (think 50x50 custom made panels hung from a ceiling). However, a model on a car is different altogether. If I were to do it I'd approach it as such: the model is the subject, the car is a prop, and the landscape is the background.</p>

<p>I envision the composition as the car being 45º to the plane of the camera, with the back facing the camera (I love the back of a Corvette, but this is to taste), with the model leaning on the back fender.</p>

<p>I would do it around sunset... and I would get to the location early to set up so you don't lose ambient (you can't light the landscape). I would first take an ambient reading of the landscape and underexpose it by 1 to 2 stops to get a saturated and dark background to pop the model from.<br>

Next, I would probably use the beauty dish as my main light on the model. When I use the AB dish outside I take off the light blocker in the middle but I use the diffusion sock. Sometimes you get too much falloff from the dish and you could use a softbox instead, depending also on how much light you want on the car. You can use the ring flash as fill as needed.<br>

I would use an umbrella or a softbox as a kicker. I'm of the of keeping the light as simple as possible... I've seen commercial shoots for bags of chips that have taken a week and used more lights than a movie set, but I don't think you're trying to get on that level... yet! So, anyways, I would use a big light as a rim/kicker that could also hit the car and pop some light onto it. You don't need crazy highlights everywhere on the car because this is a picture of the model, not an ad for GM.</p>

<p>If the model has dark hair and the non-kicker side is getting lost in the background (if there are clouds in the sky perhaps) I might add one of the SB's to the other side just to pop it out. I'm very careful when I have 2 rim lights because I generally hate the look of too much rim light especially with glamour shots. It reminds me of band photos from 80's metal bands.</p>

<p>So, that's how I would do it. Jimmy D, who blogs at prettygirlshooter.com uses a similar lighting set up a lot, and he's shot pretty girls for many publications... I know I've seen some examples of him doing it with girls on motorcycles, etc.</p>

<p>Good luck with your shoot... and the best way to learn lighting/photographing/retouching is to stay away from forums.</p>

<p>Q - How many photographers does it take to change a lightbulb?<br>

A - 50. One to change it and 49 to tell him he's doing it wrong and their way is better.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Really Marlon? "Learn by trying" or rather "pretend to know by asking other people"? There is an assumption here the OP never bothered to dispel, that this might not be a paid gig, but I rather doubt it. The whole description "smells" of commercial shoot and that is why all of us "grumps" jumped on it - not because we're afraid of the competition or because we want to keep the "new guy" down, but because it's attitudes like this that literally ruin the market (and I use the word "ruin" very carefully, because despite it's harshness, it is pretty accurate...) EVery time someone who literally just picked up a D700 (I don't know what the OP has or even if he just picked it up - I'm simply illustrating a point here) and pretends to be a professional photographer messes up big time, it's a huge blow to everyone who has invested thousdands of hours in learning, experimenting, shooting again and again and again until his/her technique is perfect (or as near as).</p>

<p>I have nothing to fear from the OP as I know I can probably outshoot him anytime, but there are other photographers out there who count on their experience and expertise to make a living shooting cars (or ads like this) and the OP's blundering efforts based on some posts on the internet will create problems for them - and THAT is unacceptable. It's the same with weekend wedding shooters etc etc...like I always say: "some things are better left to the professionals"... after all, I'm pretty handy with a scalpel - would you like me to practice on your appendix so that I learn? I've watched "House MD" and "Grey's Anatomy" 100 times, so I know the basics...!</p>

<p>Shooting cars is not only difficult, it's also one of the more demanding projects anyone would dream to undertake and ANYONE who's ever attempted it (I assisted on three such shoots way back in the day) cannot but "marvel" at the OP's blatant ignorance about lighting and positioning (as displayed by the post). Just check a post on the diy_photography (simply take out the underscore and add a .net in the end) site (the video of the italian photographer shooting the Bugattis, halfway down the post) and you'll see what I mean...</p>

<p>You offer suggestions on shooting the model using the car as a prop, but that was not what the OP asked. A car is NOT just a prop as it is, quite possibly, one of the least forgiving props you could ever have in a shoot - the simplest error in positioning and lighting will come back to haunt you big time. Shooting a car with a model would mean lighting BOTH separately, VERY carefully and VERY delicately, so delicately in fact that, if I were to attempt to shoot something like this I would practice a dozen times with a similar setup BEFORE I even accepted the project...</p>

<p>If you Marlon, or the OP, think someone can simply do it through a couple of short paragraphs on the internet, then I'm simply sorry for your clients...</p>

<p>[As for your last "joke", photography is indeed a very personal thing, AS LONG AS THE PROJECT IS PERSONAL. When the project is for a client, ALL that matters IS THE CLIENT! Nothing and nobody else...so, if the 49 photographers say you're screwing the lightbulb wrong for a Gucci fashion shoot, hell, I'd pay attention!]</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Yes, Marios. <strong>REALLY.</strong> If someone's taking a picture of a girl in a metallic bikini and you think the car is the subject, then... you must really, really, really like cars. I <strong>agree</strong> with you about how there are many photographers that learn a technique on the Internet and then the next day they are trying to get money to produce them. Same goes for $200 wedding photography.</p>

<p>All I'm saying is that this guy just asked for tips and he was attacked and that's not fair. Also, if it means anything I gave up medical school to follow my passion as a professional photographer (with the market I wish I stayed!) and surgery is not as subjective as photography.</p>

<p>And shooting cars <strong>IS,</strong> without a doubt, one of the most precise and difficult endeavours in photography, but shooting a GIRL on a CAR is not the same. You obviously don't read a lot of fashion magazines or look at editorials... but that's ok... that's not your thing.</p>

<p>My clients pay me based on the pictures I deliver, not based on how I teach lighting through Internet forums. They'll continue to pay me no matter how well Brandon does on his photoshoot. I feel sorry for <strong>your </strong>clients because they have to deal with such a pompous prick.</p>

<p>Brandon,</p>

<p>Seems a little heat came your way. Hmmmm?<br>

I agree and disagree with some of the advice.</p>

<p><strong>I have no idea based on your post what the image is intended for?</strong></p>

<p>If it's for practice or just for fun; go for it, experiment, take your time and PP the living daylights out of it.</p>

<p>If as others are assuming it's a commercial shoot perhaps for a brochure; you are in over your head with the equipment you list. Full size automobiles are rarely if ever shot outdoors.</p>

<p>You will have to come back and face the music and let us all know what the intention of the shoot is?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I have some full-time commercial photographer friends in exactly that line of work and I know what they do....which is why I had a reaction to the post in the first place.....Robert</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>In just that vein, I agree 100% with you Robt.<br>

I too have a good friend who does nothing but shoot for Audi. As a photographer with interest, he invited me to a commercial automobile shoot 2 yrs ago. To say I was blown away by the prep work alone would be an understatement.</p>

<p>Anyone who believes a vehicle is rolled in under some fancy lights and photographed would be mistaken.</p>

<p>The vehicle we see in brochures is NOT the same vehicle we can purchase for a number of reasons.</p>

<p>1) It would be un-drive-able! The vehicle is stripped of all unnecessary parts to accommodate fixtures for interior lighting<br>

2) The vehicle (in this shoot) was re-painted with a specialized low reflectivity coating.<br>

3) The tires were not tires at all, they were foam.<br>

4) A hydraulic platform was used to position the vehicle for multiple angles.<br>

5) The glass was removed and replaced with anti glare acrylic sheets.</p>

<p>In all the shoot required 3 days and 15 assistants, not to mention the client looking over the shoulder of the agency shooter requesting this or that change and demanding to see a result "now" prior to any PP.<br>

Those 3 days did not include the envisioned art work up leading up to the shoot with multiple meetings between the client and agency, which I understood was about 8 months!</p>

<p>I know what the photographer earned for this shoot as well as what the entire agency fee was.<br>

It was a staggering amount of money.</p>

<p>Yes, large shiny objects are very difficult to shoot. I would leave the strobes at home and shoot at the golden hour.</p>

<p>The car will reflect the surroundings, so ideally you want a clear horizon in all directions, unfortunately this is difficult to find. I shot on a small access road near the water once with good results. If there are trees nearby, the reflections will ruin the nice lines of the car. But, if you get close and shoot with a wide angle, you can make the model dominate the shot and the car issues will be less important.</p>

<p><a href="http://oneslidephotography.com/automotive-photography-tips-and-trick/">http://oneslidephotography.com/automotive-photography-tips-and-trick/</a> </p>

<p>Two thoughts....</p>

<p> <em><strong>Way</strong></em> too much arrogance and hostility going on here. Does anyone think that there's a huge commercial market for girls in metallic bikinis sitting on 1995 Corvette's? I don't think anyone's paying Brandon to do this shoot. At best, Brandon has recruited some people's time and vehicle with the promise of "cool" pictures of their car or TFP for the model. Heck, he might even be paying out of pocket for some of this. </p>

<p>Secondly Brandon, it's generally not a good idea to ask questions like "Tell me in detail how I should shoot my pictures". Go out, find your own vision, make your own imagery. Be creative. If you need to learn technique, read up on technique. If you were a painter, you would never ask another painter "I've got some red paint, green paint, and some blue paint, and I want to paint a picture of a barn. Tell me where I should put the paint on the canvas."</p>

<p>I agree that the OP's set-up for this discussion was rather tone-deaf. But there are all sorts of resources online to help think this through. More or less randomly, here, read through some of the (product-centric, of course) <strong><a href="http://www.photoflexlightingschool.com/Lighting_Lessons/Lessons_on_Portraits_Outdoors/index.html">outdoor portrait lessons</a></strong> at the Photoflex "lighting school" web site. There are countless such tutorials online, and while they're not all going to use your exact mix of equipment, you'll start to understand how to <em>think</em> about this sort of lighting.<br /><br />I also agree that you should probably let natural light work for you here. You'll have a fleeting bit of just-right light late in the day (or very early in the morning), and might want to limit your use of the strobes to highlighing hair, etc. Consider two or three dry runs using a stand-in vehicle and a friend, and watch the clock as the light comes and goes. Watch the weather forecast. And definitely think through the whole "tell me exactly how you'd do this" approach - it doesn't much help you, and as you can see, it kind of lands with a thud if you're not explaining the context of the shoot.</p>

<p>The best way to shoot a car to get the good lines and such is to use the natural light box called a sky at dusk, The soft light of dusk will show the lines of the care in the best possible way, studio lightingtries to emulate this. but IMHO never gets it as good.</p>

<p>Reading this post, I can't help but wonder how different the responses would be if only the original post read, "I am shooting a girl in front of a Toyota Tercel," instead of a Corvette. As a bystander to the conversation, it seems that many assumptions were made purely on the perceived value of the car. It also seems to me that anyone that made the assumption that 'sixteen year old semi-exotic car = high paid shoot' probably ought to excuse themselves from the conversation now, as they're obviously making up details in their own mind that the OP never stated in the first place.</p>

<p>I'm operating under the impression that this isn't a high paid shoot. After all ... a Corvette pretty much sells itself, and very few people will want to pay for promotional work on a vehicle that is two generations old. I could be wrong, but the vintage tells me that he's probably not being hired by a dealership. Possibly a collector, but even that is unlikely.</p>

<p>From an educational standpoint, those that suggested using natural light are right. I'm a big fan of using lots of lights, but if you don't know why you're using them, it's wasted time and equipment. If it were me, I would shoot for just before 'the golden hour', and only bring a couple lights. I would plan on letting the sun do as much work as possible, and I would use one of the Alien Bees with a softbox (or umbrella) as fill; I would use your SB-900 to pick out a detail here or there that may get missed. I would leave the ringlight, the beauty dish, and that other technical stuff at home.</p>

<p>No, your photos won't look as good as the professional shots. But if you can light a subject with three lights (counting the sun), then you can light with eight. The important thing is to understand where the light is coming from and what it does when it hits the subject. That way, the third or forth time you do something like this you'll just know. I don't know Kevin's friend the Audi guy, but I'll bet you that he started as an apprentice doing this sort of thing. As Kevin mentioned, the way these shots are done is so different than 'regular' lighting that you can't just get out a checklist and be a pro - you need to stumble through a few times first.</p>

<p>Take it as a learning experience, and make the best photos you can. Unless you're getting paid or you promised someone something out of this, you only need to get one or two really good photos to make the model and the car owner happy.</p>

<p>Got to agree with Sheldon,</p>

<p>If you don't have anything connstructive or informative to say, then just don't bother saying it.</p>

<p>Some might balk from this but it sounds fun to me and you have plenty of gear to get a variety of looks.<a href="

This video</a> might help. Work out what shots you want before the shoot, think about the lighting for each shot. My first thought is I'd work the three Alien Bees, ring light on her, two lights on the car. Make sure you have a friend or two to help with the lights, reflectors are much easier to work than a fourth light.</p>

<p>Zack....Scott....and some others....you simply don't know what you're talking about here.<br>

The OP tells us pretty much nothing about the shoot...but he does say enough that it's clear he knows nothing about such things either.<br>

Encouraging people is valuable, and the lifeblood of an excellent forum like this one. But validating <em><strong>wanna-be-itis </strong></em>is inappropriate. One starts at the start in most career paths....you don't just jump in at the top end and you do no service to the poster by trying to encourage that behaviour.....regards...and respects to all....Robert</p>

<blockquote>

<p>...regards...and respects to all....Robert</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Indeed. The entire tone of this thread and forum would be better if we could <em>all</em> actually put that into practice.</p>

<p>Robert,</p>

<p>I train people as part of my job, some of it is very important and critically safety related. Taking some pictures of a girl and a car are not, who cares if Brandon, or any other poster, is in over their head? If we can help, then help, if they fall flat then they will almost certainly learn from that too. </p>

<p>In my training, I know, that matching peoples confidence level to the tasks at hand is the real key to them becoming proficient. Boosting peoples confidence to levels above their abilities sets them up to fail, knocking people down is totally counterproductive, unless, they are overconfident. I deal with both regularly.</p>

<p>Now your attempt at "helping" Brandon could not have assisted him, he is obviously not overconfident in this situation. He almost certainly has some familiarity with the equipment list he gave (I know long time pro Nikon shooters who have never heard of SU4 mode let alone how to impliment it), what he was asking for, and I think very reasonably in an area outside his comfort zone, was for a starting point of what and where <em>we might start</em> with his equipment. How is that unreasonable? And why would that encourage such negativity? Help or don't comment, don't be negative, unless it is helpful.</p>

<p>We are not talking about professionalism or an unrepeatable scenario, I have been in trouble several times on the wedding forum for suggesting that people are not ready to shoot a wedding as a first shooter. Brandon has not asked how you might shoot the entire set, he asked where you might start, he did not ask for settings, ratios, lenses or any of the other countless banal questions so often posted and previously answered. He is not going to ruin somebody's wedding day memories. He just asked for some simple input.</p>

<p>Why assume Brandon is trying to start in the middle of your perceived career path? Why assume he is a pro? Or that this is a paid shoot? He could be extremely experienced in other areas that don't cross over. He could be 12 years old! Be gracious, why didn't you just point Brandon to your cars folder, here or on your website? Why not just tell him the time of day, angle of sun, any auxiliary lighting etc? Or your groups folder? Boy I am glad I wasn't one of your students if this is how you reply to a simple request, maybe it is a situation outside your comfort zone.........</p>

 

<p>Wow, what a pissing contest! Brandon - just go shoot the damn car and forget all the discouragement about trying something new. You won't learn if you don't try.</p>

<p>Here's my take on the lighting: leave everything at home except for 1 alien bee and some grids. On a 'vette you basically have 4 surfaces for reflection - down the side above the body line and below the body line, top of front fender and hood. Keep in mind that if the paint is not perfect, you will see swirls with incident light. I would only use the light for fill or a rim light and keep it tightly focused. Really, some of the best car photography I've ever seen is in The Rodder's Journal. Go to your bookstore and flip through one. They use natural light for a lot of their hot rod shoots. Or you could go to their website at roddersjournal.com. A good example is on the "About the Magazine" page second down on the left titled "Incomparable". It shows one reason why you wouldn't want to use a polarizer - the nice sky reflection on the window obscures the inside of the car and makes it more attractive. You could also put the SB800 inside the car pointing straight up to light the inside, but of course the car is secondary.<br /> A tip for parking the car - park so you're looking almost straight at the front corner of the bumper and then turn the wheels at an angle so you can see it. Like so, but of course your point of view is different: http://corvettefever.automotive.com/92518/corp-0809-1995-chevrolet-corvette-coupe/index.html<br /> One more thing - don't let the model scratch the car with her heels :-)</p>

<p>Just to close of the argument with Marlon: the OP said, quite clearly "I am doing my first car shoot with strobe lighting"...! Car shoot, right? The model in the bikini is mentioned, but only later and clearly as an "accessory" to the car shoot, so no, the shoot is NOT a model or even a fashion shoot - get your facts straight before you start using bold letters and calling people names! If scanning a simple statement correctly is too much for you, then boy am I glad you gave up medicine...!</p>

<p>Oh, and congrats on devolving into such "eloquent" language and personal insults in a forum populated by helpful (however brutally honest at times) people - well done. Personally if I was the moderator I'd have serious concerns about this, but I will defer to their judgement.</p>

<p>However, I would seriously suggest you take a breather and think things through a bit more thoroughly...</p>

<p>Shoot the car first in controlled lighting, like a studio with black walls and ceiling, if you can. You will find it easier to pre visualize reflections when shooting out in the open. Shooting a shiny thing like a car is almost entirely about getting your highlights where you want them to be, and enormous wrap around soft light with gradual fades for the rest. Now add light for the model without spilling it onto the car. Next add (or calculate exposure for the background) -- (This part I have no experience with, never shot out in the open). I'm guessing an overcast sky will be easy and uninteresting. A bright sun will be difficult to control (unless you want to mess with assistants and thin fabric to block direct light on the car). A good alternative might be a great sunset, slightly underexposed. You can still use assistants and white fabric to bounce the lights from.. and this may be easier than playing with the sun.</p>

<p>At a minimum you probably need some friends/assistants, poles/lightstands, ropes, large white/gold/reflective fabric.</p>