How to deal with "Uncle Bob"

<p>Hi! I have had this problem in last two weddings this last January: A pair of friends of B&G started taking photos all over the ceremony and recepcion, this guys (one with a D-SLR, the other with a P&S)where making it difficult to work since they where getting in our way (photog. and video). I talked to one of them in 3 occassion, explained as briefly and quietly as possible that I did not care them taking a shot once in a while, but to please not get in our way, I thought that this would be understood since B&G where paying us (photog. and Video) to do our job. This really got me upset, not that they took photos or got in the way once or twice (that happens in all weddings) the problem was that this two where all over the place walking around B&G so can see them in many of our photo and in the video, they saw us trying to do our job and they got in the way like we where not even there. <br>

What I want to know is how to deal with this over annoying people that do not understand that they are not doing a favour to B&G with this attitude.<br>

I'm sure that we can talk to B&G before the wedding and make them know that we don't want other photogs. hurling around. But what to do when they appear right in the ceremony??????</p>

<p>Go to the B&G, and tell them of the problem; explain to them that you can not guarantee how their wedding pictures will turn out with the problems you are having with people interfering with the job THEY hired you to do.<br>

Also you should have a disclaimer in your contract regarding people like you had trouble with at your last two weddings.</p>

<p>Show them a pic on the back of the camera to illustrate how they are ruining the shots. Will probably carry a lot more weight once they see it.</p>

<p>yeah, tell bride (she cares more bout the pictures then the groom), show her a shot with "uncle bob" in background and tell her if they dont stop, they are going to "ruin" your wedding pictures!</p>

<p>Everyone has a camera these days (most have a newer model than the one we carry ) --thats just how the future seems to be. The only saving grace is > we shoot 2 hours before the ceremony > which is usually not hampered by more than a few photographers. If you explain that the "Uncle Bobs" , of the day >> will be in any many of their images ~~ at least they can speak with them or except the falted images. Face it --the Presidents' daughter had her camera < in rapid mode > the whole time her father was at the inaugurational ceremonies ...and so were about another <em>few thousand</em> s attendees. </p>

<p>It's important to have a relevant clause in your Contract. The B&G need to be aware that the conduct of their guests is their responsibility and that they should ensure overly enthusiastic attendees don't impede the paid pro. I feel this is yet another area where photographers are losing respect, sadly.</p>

<p>I suggest taking a much different approach to the suggestions above, especially as you have had this problem more than once, it could be you need to look introspectively, for the answer. <br>

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Running to the Bride with your problems is <em ><strong >the very last resort</strong></em>, and quite unprofessional as a first option; you are being paid - you need to sort it out or work around it. <br>

<br>

And contracts are all very well and good, but in the practical world, you are being <em><strong>paid to produce the goods . . . </strong></em>I suspect you won't last long in the practical world of business, pulling out the finely tuned default clause, after the event, and with very few prints for the album. <br>

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Essentially, She (the Bride) would be <em ><strong >your</strong></em> main point of focus - if these guys were "getting in our way (photog. and video).” then these guys are <em ><strong >between you and the main subject of the evening.</strong></em><br>

<em ><strong > </strong></em><br>

Simply fix that and the problem goes away – you are not really using a 300mm lens with two feet welded to one spot on the floor – are you?<br>

<br>

WW<br>

</p>

 

<p>I agree that a photographer must be in control of the environment, as far as that is possible. Crowd control is an area of discomfort for many new photographers, and confidence comes with experience. I've had to learn those lessons myself, and have had to grow bolder, faster and more assertive, but I still think it's important that this is mentioned in the Contract, in case extreme circumstances should arise. </p>

<p>William - if you have encountered a similarly difficult situation, how did you approach it? I feel it may not always be as simple as running in front of the offender. Suggesting that guests get their shots either before or after you sounds OK in practice, but it doesn't always work. </p>

<p><em><strong>"but I still think it's important that this is mentioned in the Contract, in case extreme circumstances should arise."</strong></em><br>

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Yes. Especially for the areas of the world where contracts are important, it is very important to have the contract tailored and all bases covered in them.<br>

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Frankly, Lindsay, I re-constructed the sentence where I mentioned the "contract" three times I did not wish to be misunderstood: <br>

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I did <em><strong>not </strong></em>want to detract from your point about the content of the contract and any importance of it: but I wished to emphasise that Jose should not simply default, to relying upon it. <br>

<br>

***<br>

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I think that "crowd control" is a big problem for many beginners, too. That is why I was implying not to attempt it, initially.<br>

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I have encountered many "Uncle Bob's" - and yes, I perhaps I move or act (more) assertively than some younger and less experienced than I. And I agree, it doesn’t always work: sometimes people continuously get in the way and make a pig of themselves at the shooting trough . . . sometimes we need to have a word . . . sometimes we need to optically slave a flash gun in their direction . . . sometimes we need to leave the video lights on . . . sometimes we just need to be there and push in “door stop” style. . . <br>

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BUT:<br>

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The OP mentioned both the Ceremony and the Reception - it seems to me (without specific details to clarify) that if there were problems at the Ceremony, then the Ceremony was not properly reconnoitred to establish and then control the best vantage points, or at the Ceremony the Congregation was a mobile entity.<br>

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At the Reception, really I cannot envisage a great deal of difficulty moving freely to either get a reasonable long shot or move in closer and simply cut these characters off.<br>

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Nowhere in the OP are the "Formals" either mentioned or implied, which I think you are alluding to here: <br>

<em><strong> </strong></em><br>

<em><strong>"Suggesting that guests get their shots either before or after you sounds OK in practice, but it doesn't always work."</strong></em> <br>

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In specific regard to Formals of the Wedding Party - I (mostly) always have a private venue organized between the Church and the Reception. For the Formal shots outside or inside the Church - I work very close and very quickly maintaining eye and vocal contact with the Wedding party at all times and simply do not allow any other Photographer between me and the group. I have no issue with people shooting from behind me or to the side, but I will move them from the rear of the Wedding Party, if they are in shot.<br>

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In summary, my understanding of the OP was that the Photographer has relatively little experience in Wedding Photography, obviously that is why he was asking the question. The situation he described, IMO is not a "problem" it is just part of the working environment.<br>

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My answer was to emphasise the need for Jose to (firstly) develop shooting techniques to work around and within these everyday occurrences . . . and not go running to the Bride with a sob story, or to revert to the sanctity of the contract, as the first, second or third course of action. <br>

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I believe the second course of action is to learn and develop good communicative skills, and the third course of action is to learn and develop good People <em><strong>management</strong></em> skills. (not crowd <em><strong>control).</strong></em><br>

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The next to last option would be to have a word to the Bride, or, better still someone else with enough clout to fix the situation, Mother's of Brides are usually quite good at that - the last action would to revert to the words of the "contract".<br>

***<br>

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<em><strong>"William - if you have encountered a similarly difficult situation, how did you approach it?"</strong></em><br>

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The whole point is the very first job is to develop Rapport. <br>

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If one has Rapport with all the key players (plural), really there is very few difficulties, because with Rapport, all the key players are in the Photographer’s court, and the key players wield the power over all the guests, and then the <strong ><em >"similarly difficult situation"</em></strong> never has to be addressed, because the key players, address it for me. <br>

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WW <br>

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</p>

<p > </p>

 

<p>I try to tell myelf that the day isn't about me and work around them, even incorporate them into my shots.<br>

But sometimes I just snarl at them to get them outta my way for good. I've only had to bring it up with the B&G once.</p>

<p><strong><em>Suggesting that guests get their shots either before or after you sounds OK in practice, but it doesn't always work. </em> </strong></p>

<p>So true! At a wedding in November, this cousin was so aggresive about getting her pictures that she pushed my wife out of the way. Thankfully, she didn't get hurt and more thankfully the MOB and the FOB saw what had happened. Amazingly, we never saw the cousin again, however we did see the images she so aggresively needed to get on her myspace page and to be kind, whey were not so good.</p>

<p>There are still weddings being financed by the M&F of the bride and they are very aware if your performing up to their expectations and will take care of things if you are being hampered. Let the bride enjoy her day but make sure you speak up to the right people if you cannot get an overly zealous guest/family member with a camera to behave on your own.</p>

<p>There are some helpful answers here, and William, I always find your replies very informative and I appreciate the extent to which you share your knowledge and expertise. As you said, experience is key to handling many of these situations, and developing a positive assertiveness is the way forward. This is something that personally I feel I have to work harder at. In terms of my comment regarding guests taking pictures before or after the pro, I was talking generally, as some photographers use that technique (with varying success). And I suppose some weddings are more boistrous than others. An usher (rather than the Bride or Groom) is generally appointed as a point of contact, should specific or persistent difficulties arise.</p>

<p>To clarify - I meant speaking to an usher (who has agreed to act as a contact point) is what I would do (if necessary), rather than approach the B&G directly with any issues.</p>

<p>I think you could just let them know if they don't mind having a certain person in all of their photos, they don't have to do anything. I agree with the idea of showing them a picture or two. It should be the bride or groom that talks to them about the issue.</p>

<p>Before the wedding I try to discuss it some with the couple, but the fact is almost everyone has a camera these days, and taking photos is a lot of fun. I just expect that almost every guest will have some sort of camera (even the kids have cameras these days), and some consider themselves as just as good as any pro. I work around them, or try to get them to work with me. The last thing I'm going to do is go to the B & G during their wedding day celebration and bitch about their guests having fun. The number one complaint I hear from couples about wedding vendors of all sorts is when they (the pros) can't seem to handle the problems and obstacles that arise. That's why they hired the pro in the first place.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>You can put all the contract language in the contract you want, but it isn't going to stop determined Uncle Bobs (or whomever) from aggressive shooting behavior. Pre-emption is possible, but not all that successful, in my experience. Particularly if those Uncle Bobs want to shoot samples for their portfolio.</p>

<p>And if they start their behavior during the ceremony, where you have little or no chance to speak with them about not getting in the way. For those instances, if you have an assistant, have the assistant rein in the offenders (a talk outside the sactuary). If you have no assistant, do it yourself, if you have a chance. If you don't have a chance, then unfortunately, you just need to deal with it--you can try hand signals, facial expressions, etc., but a determined Uncle Bob will deliberately not look at you. And I have used the 'insert body' method before, but it only works up to a point. That point is when your actions become a distraction to the ceremony.</p>

<p>Side shooting during the formals is another issue which isn't being asked about above. If the offenders continue to get in the way during the reception, I would speak firmly with them, more firmly, and yet more firmly, and then resort to the couple or designated coordinator. It is, as William W. states, a last resort, but sometimes necessary. And it does help to be male and large, and since I am neither, I have, on occasion, resorted to it.</p>

<p>I should add that the more aggressive tactics come only after every attempt has been made to make those troublesome people your "shooting buddies." Unfortunately, this is best if you already suspect that you will have trouble from those folks. This is where you take them aside before things start, get friendly, and 'in the spirit of cooperation, done all for the couple', map out a plan of action and hand signals. You can still attempt it after being blindsided during the ceremony, but by then, Uncle Bob will probably already be very defensive toward you.</p>

<p>I usually talk to the best man and maid of honor about any problem like this. B&G need to relax and enjoy thier day!</p>

<p>Usually a gentle dose of thier own medicine gets the point across. <br>

I think the Uncle Bob's get so wraped up in what they are doing, they fail to see that they are getting in the way.<br>

This has worked for me many times. When a key momment is about to happen, like the kiss during the ceremony, or the bride and grrom entering the reception, I just wait until a split second before that moment happens, and just place myself between the offender and the subject, seemingly unaware that I am blocking their shot.<br>

Most Uncle Bob's I've encountered are nice people, but just a bit too enthusiatic about getting the shot, and consequently get in the way.<br>

A subtle demonstration of what they are doing usually puts them in their place. No verbal communication needed.<br>

O.T.O.H, if somone is leaning into the isle during the processional or recessional, I will wave to them to scoot back in.</p>

<p>What no one has mentioned yet is the problem with people standing behind the photographer during formals. Have you ever tried to take a formal with the flower girls in the shot when Mom is standing 6 feet to your left? I rarely have a big problem with people getting in the way, more often it's trying to get the subjects to stay focused on me and not the people attempting to have a conversatiohn with them in the middle of a photo shoot.</p>

<p>My solution is to make a little joke about it, something like, "Okay, this is the only time today where everyone has to look at me and not our beautiful bride.... sorry about that!"</p>

<p ><strong ><em >"As you said, experience is key to handling many of these situations, and developing a positive assertiveness is the way forward."</em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >Experience is only part of it.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Personally, I undertook workshops and short courses on Communication, People Management and Interpersonal Transactional Analysis. When I was 22, two main areas of improvement I required for me to do well in business were: effective interpersonal communication & (people) management; and practical business. In that year, learning the skills in those two areas with a top notch 3 day, lock away seminar and a 12 week night course, cost me about as much as my year's tuition for my Advanced Certificate of Photography.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >There is no use having 30 years of experience, if all one has been experiencing is ineffective, habitual behaviour.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >It seems to me that whilst some Professional Photographers might consider "learning" Photography, from a traditional classroom course; a mentor; a group, or association; as an apprentice; by reading books; attending workshops; or reading forums and blogs - the "learning" of the theory and skills to effectively communicate and interact with; sell to; and manage <strong><em>people,</em></strong> is glossed over, at he very most . . . and learning how to run a business, is very rarely addressed at all. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >***</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I regards to generally allowing the guest photographers, to shoot, before and or after the Professional - I understand your meaning now: I think that process works fine for the "must haves" or "record shots" - if they have some degree of management, like the cake cutting as one example. Personally I am still at the front and I reiterate: "I work very close and very quickly maintaining eye and vocal contact with the (Subjects) at all times". For the general flow of the whole day, especially if it is undertaken as a storybook or photojournalistic approach, "taking turns" really doesn't work at all, IMO.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >***</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Thank you for the kind comments, Lindsay.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW </p>

 

<p >I agree with Nadine, that size, and gender of the Photographer do make a difference when coming up against a determined Uncle Bob, especially if he is determined to grab shots for his portfolio.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think age is another factor which provides some leverage, especially when managing an Uncle Bob, by a male Photographer – perhaps some more leverage for a Female Photographer too . . .</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Also, I agree that a determined Uncle Bob has a distinct advantage if he begins his shenanigans <em >during the Ceremony.</em></p>

<p ><em > </em></p>

<p >I guess if you are not a Bloke, and Big, and Old, somewhat like a Dinosaur: it is necessary to determine what leverage lay within the personal traits and attributes that one has. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Managing recalcitrant behaviour at the Ceremony: it is important to address the behaviour quickly and efficiently but without distraction.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >There is no “one size fits all” approach – the general method of management must suit the Photographer – and then be tailored to address the individual situation and the particular Uncle Bob.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Though I seem to sound like a broken record – a good workshop addressing this topic, will provide one with a <em >range of techniques</em> to address aggressive and rude behaviour, generally. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW </p>

<p > </p>

<p >PS Nadine, I am on a strict diet (simply less food), and more exercise . . . so I intent not to be so large, in the future. :)</p>

<p > </p>

 

<p>Booray--I don't think Jose is asking about the formals session, but you might want to search the forums as this particular issue has been discussed before. What works best for me is to control the session by being the 'nice guy'. You tell people that they will have their chance, but you get your picture first without anyone else trying to get the subjects' attention. Then you let them shoot, but keep it short. Any slow people lose their chance. You also keep a friendly but authoritative demeanor, and break down groups quickly.</p>

<p>For shots of kids, the above works well--use the people/moms on the sidelines as assistants to help you get the attention of the kids.</p>

<p>It should be pointed out that some cultures are worse than others, when it comes to the pairing of technology with weddings. At some of these weddings, subtleties absolutely don't work. I have photographed weddings where there were about 5 or 6 videographers and countless people with P&S and more advanced DSLRs--all of them guests, with (I'm sure) several photographers wanting to put their portfolio together. Even direct confrontation sometimes fails.</p>

<p>As for photojournalistic coverage with aggressive shooters around, this is a judgement call. You either decide to interfere or not. Your decision depends on what you told the client you will be getting in the way of kinds of shots. At the last Bar Mitzvah I photographed, the DJ invited all the kids to gather round the Bar Mitzvah boy at the end of the candle lighting. The videographer opted to stay back--I opted to muscle my way into the tight circle to photograph them blowing out the candles. And I wasn't gentle, because I had no time to say anything.</p>

<p>Give the uncle a reflective disc and put him to work.</p>

<p>Good idea, Mauro, and it works sometimes, but I heard from another photographer that put guests to work, that those guests complained that they weren't there to assist the photographer. You don't want that to get to the couple.</p>

<p>William W.--I could eat everything in sight, get wider, but I'll still be 5'2" and female so nothing would change...</p>