Hobbyist given a business proposal

<p>My hobby is photography (obviously), and my fiancee's hobby is raising poison dart frogs. This works well for both of us - she gets to raise the frogs, and I get to photograph them. As a result we are both active in the local and online poison dart frog communities. One of the local froggers is opening up a shop here that caters to reptile and amphibian owners. After seeing photos that I have posted to the online frogger community he has come to me interested in a two-part proposal.</p>

<p>1. He wants to sell my photos - anything from postcards to fridge magnets, to small and large prints; basically whatever he can sell.<br>

2. He wants to discuss having me in the shop a couple times a month to photograph people handling various creatures.</p>

<p>We're going to meet next week, and I just want to know ahead of time what are typical terms for these kinds of agreements.</p>

<p>As for selling my art, I found an old post here from 2003 saying that hanging prints in a shop are usually done on consignment with around a 67-33 photographer-shop split. Is that still the generally accepted norm?</p>

<p>As for "studio" time at his shop, I have no idea. Because I would be tying up my time there regardless of customer volume it would be beneficial for me to charge him an hourly rate to be there. On the other hand, I would understand if he wanted to pay me by-the-customer so that he's not paying me to sit and do nothing when there are no customers. How is this best handled, and whichever way, what's the going rate?</p>

<p>Regarding contract, I'm thinking it might be better to have a different contract for each facet of the work. That way if one part is working out, but the other is not, the failing part of the deal can be terminated without interrupting the other half. Does that make sense? Does the fact that I'm just a hobbyist and not a pro photographer have any impact on any of this whatsoever? Am I overthinking all of this? Thanks for your comments!</p>

Why does there have to be two contracts? The two different actvities can be treated independently in one contract. One

part need not affect the other.

<p>It doesn't have to be. I just thought it might be beneficial. Thanks John.</p>

<p>James, it appears the local frogger is exploring mutually beneficial business opportunities for his new shop. <br>

<br>

On the first proposal, you can either sell on consignment or as a supplier. Someone will have to fund the inventory upfront and incur risks so a "67-33 photographer-shop split" sounds reasonable to me for consignment sales. If you act as a supplier (he buys goods from you to resell), then the terms will be determined by your negotiations with him. <br>

<br>

The second proposal is less clear since the idea has not been tested from his point of view. If you feel inclined to work with him, you might try co-developing an event plan with him and trying it one time at a 50/50 split. You can both then decide how to proceed depending on the outcome. <br>

</p>

<p>Sounds to me like your major problem is getting insurance against poisoning or expiring from the frogs. Out in my neck of the woods we have Colorado River toads. If your dog eats one he will die and if you step on one with bare feet (as a friend of mine did when she went into the garage to get the morning newspaper) your leg balloons up like crazy and you get real sick. Will you be an employee and eligible for workers comp?<br>

I cannot image the shop would not sell your fiancee's frogs if you worked there.<br>

Does your life insurance cover expiring from poison dart frogs? What are the actuary tables for poison tfrog poisoning?</p>

 

<p>Michael, thank you!</p>

<p>Wayne, LOL! Yes, we have CRT's here in Tucson. We had to take one of our dogs to the vet for detox one time, thanks to one of those. Little-known fact about poison dart frogs: Raised in captivity, they aren't actually poisonous. It is their diet that creates the toxin. In the wild they eat bugs that make them poisonous, but in captivity they eat harmless fruit flies. So you get all the beautiful colors and patterns, without that whole death part.</p>

<p>When I come across similar situations, my priority is not necessarily to make a killing (but given the chance, I would), but to gain exposure for my work. I would demand that every item displayed, and every image of mine if published, in print or online, will credit me as the photographer. Specifically, every published image of mine will individually have my name printed close by it. This also holds true when I donate my work to non-profits.<br>

<br />If my prints are displayed, they will be insured in the event of theft (happened to me once) or damaged (also happened to me, more than once). OK, I'm unlucky.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I would demand</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

Demands often end negotiations.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Demands often end negotiations.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I demand with the intent to tell the other side that crediting my work is non-negotiable, but everything else are negotiable. It ends some negotiations right at the start, and both sides walk away knowing that they won't be wasting their time.</p>

<p>The NPPA has a business calculator that may help you look at the big picture.</p>

<p>It's easy to get caught up in the never ending cycle of doing something for exposure. I've been down that road, and it is easy to become a commodity. Know your cost of doing business, even as a hobby/PT gig.</p>

<p>Let's say for arguement sake, that you are happy with a minimum of paying yourself $10 per hour for your time, $x amount for material for a backdrop you need to buy/already own, travel expenses, lunch... is $125 for that day. For simplicity sake use some variation of the 67-33% split after the first $125.</p>

<p>After a few gigs, you might tweak the model.</p>

<p>I heard Bambi Cantrell once say <strong>she</strong> is in the business of selling prints. <strong>You</strong> should control selling the prints, mugs, magnets, posters ...etc... because <strong>you</strong> own the images.</p>

<p>Maybe you are aware of the story of the Richard Avedon and Natasha Kininski and the portrait with the boa... I forgot how many millions of copies were sold.</p>

<p>Now I think boa's are cool ( I would never own one) but the huge examples could/would be a great opportunity. The owner gets professional images and you get wall hanging prints. Maybe you have a female model... etc</p>

<p>You have a presence in the reptile community. Why do you need his shop? Rent out a room at the local Holiday Inn! Plan it through the online commuity and the promote it thru all of the pet shops, reptile shops, etc... This might even garner attention from a newspaper/TV station because of the curiousity factor. It can be a benefit to both, but just go into it understanding you're in control and you know where the red/black line is...</p>

<p>Your portfolio is wonderful. When I read your post, my first thought is that you are limiting yourself. Think bigger picture and know your cost. You are the "pro" and you have the skill to make this happen. Using his shop and allowing him to profit is an offer you make him... not vice versa.</p>

<p>Thanks Rob. I do feel like there is a fine line that I am trying to walk between underselling and overselling. I know that people who face their first opportunity to step into the market often will almost give their work away because they are eager to get their foot in the door and start gaining exposure. As you noted, this can lead to becoming a commodity. I also know that it really ticks off the seasoned professionals who's business is getting undermined. I don't want to be that guy who brings down everyone's values by selling way under market. On the other hand, I realize that I am NOT a pro, and don't feel like I've earned the right to charge pro-grade prices. Perhaps I am underselling <em>myself?</em></p>

<p>I suppose I don't necessarily need his shop, but this is his proposal to me. Just like anyone who has ever produced an "above average" photograph, I've fantasized about someday making some money in photography, but I wouldn't be actively pursuing it if it wasn't for him. I feel like he deserves first consideration at least. I wouldn't want him to feel like I ran off with his idea. The reptile community is rather small and niche, and for the most part everyone considers each other friends. I wouldn't want to drive a wedge into that. But your suggestion of taking it beyond his shop into the broader community really is a good idea that I will explore - either independently or possibly with a sponsor.</p>

<p>Lastly, thank you for the kind words about my portfolio! I appreciate it.</p>

<p>No business advice here, but could you please post one of your photographs of a poison dart frog? I'm curious about the subject and the style of photography. Macro?</p>

<p>Russell, yes this is primarily macro work. Dart frogs are small - species reaching 2 inches long are considered very large. There are many species that are called "thumbnail" species, because - you guessed it - they only get as big as your thumbnail. However, dart frogs are just part of what you would find in a "herp" store. Lizards, newts, and snakes are also common "exotic" pets to be found there. A studio shot of a person holding a 10-foot boa, or a big monitor lizard wouldn't be out of the ordinary! Anyway, here is an example.</p><div></div>